(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

She was stronger though. Stronger and more skilled. There's a reason her magical barriers are still impenetrable for demos even after 1000 years.

That's because only a few people know how Flamme's techniques work. There's a reason why most of her grimoires are fake: she intentionally kept her abilities hidden to prevent any enemies from learning about them and advised Frieren to do the same.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Flamme hiding her mana helped her fight more effectively but that doesn't change the fact she was more powerful than most demos out there anyway.

There were three of them. Was she three times stronger than all of them combined? We don't know, but she doesn't have to be.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Again, this doesn't change the fact that her beam-spamming was overwhelming Lugner, and she could only do that if her mana was equal or greater than his.

They don't have to be equal. Frieren showed how important it is to be efficient with your magic before they fought Qual.

Originally Posted by Kanon

I really liked Frieren's flashback, but I feel like that should have been put after the fight with Aura. Flamme kept repeating over and over how important it was for Fireren to suppress her mana her entire life as well as focus on increase her reserves, there was zero surprise when she unleashed it for the first time in a thousand years.

In the manga they don't mention how old Frieren is or how long ago Flamme's life was until the fight with Aura.

The flashback isn't just for the fight though, because there's also the little things that start adding up like why no one knows anything about Flamme and why most of her grimoires are fake, or how similar Frieren and Fern's pasts are (both being orphaned survivors from demons massacring their village)

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

- There is really no basis for what you saying. Only way we could determine whether Flamme was stronger in combat, would be if we saw her well... in combat and blowing up unsuspecting demons doesn't tell how she would fare in actual battle.

They showed the mana of all three demons, and it was significantly smaller than Flamme's. And while I doubt magic combat is all about mana, having the greater mana pool must be a huge advantage all the same.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

She indeed were most likely more skilled (which is not same as stronger). Her barrier magic are definitely legues of her own

We know she's really strong when we add her skills and her huge mana. This is not a stretch; it's the logical conclusion.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That said you last point is objectively wrong. having faster car, doesn't mean it has bigger gas tank. Lugner figured he can't match her speed even under assumption that he has more mana. That's why he gave up on battle of attrition and decided depend on his ally instead. Whether he actually had more mana or not is irrelevant and it would remain irrelevant for another minute or two if he were able survive that long.

No, it wasn't all about speed. Lugner himself said Fern should have depleted her mana with all the beam-spamming she was doing. The fact this didn't happen is exactly what clued him in that she was surprising her mana.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There were three of them. Was she three times stronger than all of them combined? We don't know, but she doesn't have to be.

In terms of mana, it did look like she was stronger than them combined, yes.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

We know she's really strong when we add her skills and her huge mana. This is not a stretch; it's the logical conclusion.

Her mana is irrelevant in this case when the barrier is still active centuries after her death. It's not like she's still powering it now.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, it wasn't all about speed. Lugner himself said Fern should have depleted her mana with all the beam-spamming she was doing. The fact this didn't happen is exactly what clued him in that she was surprising her mana.

Needing some amount of stamina and needing more than Lugner are two different standards.
Also I never said it was all speed. Efficiency and technique matters too, just like it did against Qual.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In terms of mana, it did look like she was stronger than them combined, yes.

This isn't a hill worth dying on either way when it's not meant to be measured to that extent, nor was the scene about power in the first place.
The lesson is failing to accurate gauge your opponent's strength will cost your life.

Even Frieren vs Aura wasn't set in stone. Like Frieren herself said, if Aura had stayed back and kept on wearing down Frieren's mana with the soldiers then it would have ended differently.

[Decel]

Very satisfying episode.

I agree that the flashbacks could have been better placed. Currently they jerk the tempo of the battle.

I think I would have put the whole fight until Aura realizes that she lost and we see Frieren's overwhelming mana, then cut to the flashback to explain it all, and come back for Frieren's winning order to end the ep as is currently.

The animation in town went low, low, low

[frubam]

Wonderful episode. A bit anti-climatic, but very great storytelling here with how Frieren ended the battle. But I supposed that's what the previous episode was for; to showcase laser beams and weapon swings.

I do agree with Decel about how the flashbacks should have been arranged. I was a bit stumped as to what Fern and Frieren was doing and I think it would have made the.... how to say.... the "how'd she do it?" part of the episode have more anticipation, but after the first flashback segment, it was clear what it was, allowing the viewer to figure out how the episode would end.

Small thing, but I just want to say Aura had a lovely design =03. Especially the hair. It's always sad when a good design gets obliterated in just a single episode.

Also, here to ask; why do you think that suppressing mana is considered disgraceful by mages? Since Flamme thought so even 1000 years ago, it makes me think its an intrinsic concept of humans rather than a rule someone decide should be, and neither would make any sense from what I can tell.

[Shadow5YA]

Frieren's fight wouldn't have been a surprise even without the flashback. She already proved herself by killing Draht, and her reputation from killing the Demon King precedes her. Even everyone here already assumed that she'd win before the episode aired.
There is no mystery to Frieren's fight either way - it's everything that happened before it.

I see it more as filling in the blanks for the rest of the story, from why there are so few elves, why no one seemed to know anything about Flamme and why most of her grimoires are fake, to how Fern managed to win, since her fight was less predictable than Frieren's.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by frubam

Also, here to ask; why do you think that suppressing mana is considered disgraceful by mages? Since Flamme thought so even 1000 years ago, it makes me think its an intrinsic concept of humans rather than a rule someone decide should be, and neither would make any sense from what I can tell.

What Frieren is doing is equivalent to a king spending his entire life living as a beggar.
If you see that from other kings' perspective, then yes, of course it is a disgrace.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, it wasn't all about speed. Lugner himself said Fern should have depleted her mana with all the beam-spamming she was doing. The fact this didn't happen is exactly what clued him in that she was surprising her mana.

You are wrong

"I'll engage in battle of attrition and wait for her to exhaust her mana."

"... No I can't. Battle will be over before then"

Lugner knew that Fern will able defeat him before he realised she is hidding her mana (which didn't happen until after battle). If she had as little mana as he thought she had, battle would indeed end much sooner, but all he realised is that she has more mana than she appeared. Not that she has more or same ammount as him. All that matter is that Fern had enough mana to blitz him and any potential excess is irellevant and unidentifiable.

[Twi]

Yeah, Lugner realized that Fern would eventually get in a killing shot before she could run out of her mana because of her speed and accuracy with the amount he thought she had.

[Shadow5YA]

Keep in mind that what Lugner thought is not necessarily true since he's biased and can't assess Fern's abilities properly.

The truth is that neither of them were actually landing any clean hits on each other. Just like Lugner needed an opening, Fern was waiting for one too. The only direct hits she landed were both surprise attacks while his attention was on Stark.

It's just that even a stalemate where neither of them could land a killing blow is already beyond what Lugner expected since he thought he was better than Fern, while waiting for a good opening is exactly how Fern was taught to fight.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I really liked Frieren's flashback, but I feel like that should have been put after the fight with Aura. Flamme kept repeating over and over how important it was for Fireren to suppress her mana her entire life as well as focus on increase her reserves, there was zero surprise when she unleashed it for the first time in a thousand years. Then again, it was obvious to anyone paying attention this was how Fieren would win so I guess it's fine. I suppose the size of her manga was impressive, but again not surprising since part of her training was to increase her mana pool and she did nothing but train for a thousand years. Speaking of which, given how they spoke of her I thought Frieren had been the demons' boogieman for a long time but she only started fighting them and making a name for herself after she joined Himmel's party. That was a LOT of prep time, I guess the Demon King really was that strong.

I think Fern has the potential to become the second coming of Flamme. She is clearly very gifted and she's being trained by Flamme's only pupil to boot.

I think it served to build up not only the reveal but also exactly why Frieren hates demons so much and why she fights them the way she does, as well as developing Flamme. I feel like it wouldn't have worked if all the flashbacks came after the fight.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Keep in mind that what Lugner thought is not necessarily true since he's biased and can't assess Fern's abilities properly.

The truth is that neither of them were actually landing any clean hits on each other. Just like Lugner needed an opening, Fern was waiting for one too. The only direct hits she landed were both surprise attacks while his attention was on Stark.

It's just that even a stalemate where neither of them could land a killing blow is already beyond what Lugner expected since he thought he was better than Fern, while waiting for a good opening is exactly how Fern was taught to fight.

That's not quite true. Fern was one who didn't land any "clean" hit. Lugner in other hand didn't land any hit at all as he was completely with defending himself and longer it lasted, less firm his defense got. As long as her mana lasted long enough (which may or might not be the case) Fern wouldn't need opening.

[Decel]

Lugner, even while dying, was wondering why Fern's mana didn't deplete, so it's still ambiguous (to me at least) as to who had the most mana amongst the two. We'll never know but I suspect Fern's mana capacity would be greater than Lugner but lesser than Aura. In short: Frieren's disciples (Stark, Fern) are better than Aura's (Linie, Lugner), in my view.

Edit: Also didn't realize before that Flamme was human.

Question: Were the scales part of Aura or their own magical item? As in, can't Frieren pick it up and start using it against demons?

[Funkatron]

It might be just me but I think mana visuals and the talk of controlling of mana output reminds me a lot of Nen in HxH. Does anyone know if the mangaka was inspired by Togashi?

I had spoiled myself slightly by perusing the Frieren Wiki but the execution made it a moot point. Madhouse is doing an awesome job. I really need to start reading the manga

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That's not quite true. Fern was one who didn't land any "clean" hit. Lugner in other hand didn't land any hit at all as he was completely with defending himself and longer it lasted, less firm his defense got. As long as her mana lasted long enough (which may or might not be the case) Fern wouldn't need opening.

Lugner was afraid that Fern would kill him before either of them ran out of mana, which is a valid concern. If she could graze him, what's stopping her from hitting him again?

However, there's no evidence that Fern was ever trying to stall. She was aiming to Lugner from the beginning. The fact that she didn't until he was distracted was because she couldn't. She was looking for an opening just like he was.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Lugner was afraid that Fern would kill him before either of them ran out of mana, which is a valid concern. If she could graze him, what's stopping her from hitting him again?

However, there's no evidence that Fern was ever trying to stall. She was aiming to Lugner from the beginning. The fact that she didn't until he was distracted was because she couldn't. She was looking for an opening just like he was.

Exactly, there is no evidence that Fern was trying stall. Saying she was waiting for opening is contradicting that. She grazed him once and it there was nothing stopping her from doing that again. It was Lugner that was trying delay another inevitable, but there was only limited amount of time he could buy. Assuming that Fern had enough mana, just continuing do what she did is enough to kill him. No opening needed.

[Jaden]

The writing is so interesting. Any other story would've built up the tension for Frieren facing Aura, even if she has some secret technique that makes it a total roflstomp.

What happens instead? Fern just casually spoils the whole plot in the intro, and the entire episode is about how Frieren learned her technique. We finally get to the fight, and there's no big reveal. It just plays out exactly as we expect.

But somehow, it turns out that works, too.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Jaden

But somehow, it turns out that works, too.

The entire series is about how the journey is more important than the destination. That same thing applies to situations like this too.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Lugner was afraid that Fern would kill him before either of them ran out of mana, which is a valid concern. If she could graze him, what's stopping her from hitting him again?

However, there's no evidence that Fern was ever trying to stall. She was aiming to Lugner from the beginning. The fact that she didn't until he was distracted was because she couldn't. She was looking for an opening just like he was.

Fern did not need an opening nor was she looking for one. She was spamming Zoltraak faster than he could put up shields, it was only a matter of time before she would pierce his defenses and win. Lugner was the one desperate to find an opening.

Fern had him beaten in every possible way. Speed, power, accuracy, and most likely mana capacity.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by GDB

The entire series is about how the journey is more important than the destination. That same thing applies to situations like this too.

Yeah, that line is usually delivered as some kind of cope, after reaching a disappointing end.

It's very rare to see people, and especially writers, commit to that notion from the beginning.