Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Plus that is only one time in which he says no to her.

Not gonna disagree with the rest, but are there any other points in the story until then where he should have told her 'no' or chastised her but didn't?

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The thing is Ranka relied way too much on Alto to the point where if you look back, she has never done anything on her own accord. Nor has she done something selflessly, for Ranka its always been about Alto which on a whole is very unhealthy. Giving inspiration is okay but relying on it to the point where receiving it is the only way you can act is not okay.

I don't disagree with this, but I feel you're highlighting a problem with Ranka's character itself, rather than arguing for the premise that Alto is bad for Ranka. If Ranka had fallen for anyone else, then this aspect of her 'relationship' with that person wouldn't have changed.

In which case, whether Alto is bad for Ranka or not should come down to him actually noticing and doing something about this dependency or not. I can't argue either way because I just don't remember enough details between that invasion and Ranka leaving, i.e. whether there would have been an occasion for him to bring it up.

If you would like to illustrate that, please do...though I should probably clarify that I'm quite happy simply with the idea that "Ranka is bad for Alto, end of story". (シェリル派です〜)

I don't think anyone (even Sheryl) has really explained to Ranka where she has gone wrong, but I'm not convinced they actually had reasonable opportunities to do so in the series itself.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by karice67

I feel you're highlighting a problem with Ranka's character itself, rather than arguing for the premise that Alto is bad for Ranka. If Ranka had fallen for anyone else, then this aspect of her 'relationship' with that person wouldn't have changed.

In which case, whether Alto is bad for Ranka or not should come down to him actually noticing and doing something about this dependency or not. I can't argue either way because I just don't remember enough details between that invasion and Ranka leaving, i.e. whether there would have been an occasion for him to bring it up.

If you would like to illustrate that, please do...though I should probably clarify that I'm quite happy simply with the idea that "Ranka is bad for Alto, end of story". (シェリル派です〜)

I don't think anyone (even Sheryl) has really explained to Ranka where she has gone wrong, but I'm not convinced they actually had reasonable opportunities to do so in the series itself.

Hn, I am on the line that Alto AND Burera are bad for Ranka >_>; Now that I've had time to rewatch and settle down with the shipping wars, I've decided Ranka really isn't completely at fault, and my initial hatred of her was probably due to Megumi Nakajima's grating victim voice. I realized how much I hated that voice while playing Macross Ultimate Frontier, and this was while I had no qualms with Ranka herself ==;;;

I'm going to just throw this in but, let's just speak hypothetically here- if Ranka fell in love with say, Mikhail, she would have ended up FAR better off.

The series actually sort of speaks for itself. When Ranka childishly threw a tantrum over Ozma not supporting her in her 'career' Mikhail didn't comfort her like Burera would, and call the world at fault, nor did he give vague pep talks and save her when she falls into a ditch. He bluntly told her the situation as it was, that she was just being a brat when she was incapable of putting herself out there to achieve her goals. The Result? Ranka set out to prove him wrong- and it was Mikhail, not Alto that jump started her career.

Sadly she had her head too far up into Alto-land to even notice that Alto did absolutely nothing for her.

Mikhail's actions and the results he got from them sort of highlights my main issue with any possible couplings Ranka's capable of being shipped with. Burera cares enough but lacks the ability to discipline her and simply blindly dotes on her, and Alto lacks both as he was obviously more pre-occupied with focusing his care and discipline on Sheryl. Despite always saving her, Alto always puts Ranka at an arm's length away. She goes to him to talk, rarely ever the other way round. Asides from life threatening situations, Alto rarely ever purposely gets into her business- but is rather forced by other people to get involved (ie. Ranka's first fanclub and his reactions during her movie career).

What Ranka needs- is a male protagonist who can at times coldly, and bluntly call her out on the crap she does/says, while balancing enough care when appropriate. I think if Ozma was a LOT younger and if Kathy didn't exist, he'd be a healthier fit for Ranka (Since he's sort of the only character she doesn't respond politely towards?) but alas it cannot be so looool.

It's also why I still think the MF crew needs to make an older CCS Syaoran Li Clone ]DDD. Rough boy tsundere please~! They always do well with idealistic, moe heroines of any sort~

[raeryne]

It looks like the war is on again, huh?(movie version?)

Originally Posted by karice67

If you would like to illustrate that, please do...though I should probably clarify that I'm quite happy simply with the idea that "Ranka is bad for Alto, end of story". (シェリル派です〜)

I don't think anyone (even Sheryl) has really explained to Ranka where she has gone wrong, but I'm not convinced they actually had reasonable opportunities to do so in the series itself.

Maybe it all boils down to 'Ranka being spoiled, naive and...uhm...childish'? That's why I agree when people say she has to grow up...I think she'll be much better as a character if she does...

Originally Posted by ippus

The series actually sort of speaks for itself. When Ranka childishly threw a tantrum over Ozma not supporting her in her 'career' Mikhail didn't comfort her like Burera would, and call the world at fault, nor did he give vague pep talks and save her when she falls into a ditch. He bluntly told her the situation as it was, that she was just being a brat when she was incapable of putting herself out there to achieve her goals. The Result? Ranka set out to prove him wrong- and it was Mikhail, not Alto that jump started her career.

Sadly she had her head too far up into Alto-land to even notice that Alto did absolutely nothing for her.

It's also why I still think the MF crew needs to make an older CCS Syaoran Li Clone ]DDD. Rough boy tsundere please~! They always do well with idealistic, moe heroines of any sort~

I never realized this but I think it's true...I mean, the part where Mikhail gave Ranka something to prove herself for...I think I agree that Ranka needs a man like Mikhail (minus the playboy Mikhail)...

As for Syaoran...uhm, no...he's for Sakura and only for her...ahaha...

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by raeryne

It looks like the war is on again, huh?(movie version?)

nah, the war is not on this time..it's just a periodic thing ...it's like the sun will rise everyday...ppl just keep thinking of Ranka and they (well I should probably say "We" since I am probably as guilty) can't help but have to write articles about her every now and then Ranka sure is popular in here

About Micheal vs Alto...I would say Micheal is a lot more mature than Alto, but I thought the whole point of a good series is that the male lead has to develop during the series...Micheal is always a more complete individual than Alto (personality, piloting skill etc)..even tho Alto has a not so bad development during the series, in my opinion, Micheal is still "better" than him (it's like Lockon and Setsuna in gundam 00 season 1, but Alto does not have that "season 2 development" from Setsuna)

[ippus]

@Rae: I only meant it as an example XDXD of course it can't be him exactly loool

To be honest I think the CCS Syaoran would still be a bit too nice. I think the kind of attitude he had to Sakura around the time before he gave up on Yukito, only without the gay one sided thing for someone else situation would be good XD

In short someone who isn't afraid of being harshly blunt, but is a bit tsundere at the same time XD? And to kill off the overwhelming amount of older brother complexes that she seems to attract, possibly someone who's a little bit selfish as well.

THe dynamic would have been so cute T^T but instead we have a guy who says nice things and a yes-man *sigh*

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

nah, the war is not on this time..it's just a periodic thing ...it's like the sun will rise everyday...ppl just keep thinking of Ranka and they (well I should probably say "We" since I am probably as guilty) can't help but have to write articles about her every now and then Ranka sure is popular in here

Well, I guess we've talked about Sheryl to death back in the day, and now we need someone else to talk about

Edit (double-posted just now, where are my brains tonight? >.<):

@ ippus: Yes, I agree with a Syaoran-esque tsundere for Ranka! But the funny thing is -- Alto IS a tsundere, only not with Ranka. He's perfectly fine with confronting Sheryl and arguing with her and getting all tsuntsun and deredere, but with Ranka he loses all those quirkiness.

(Maybe that's why I'm a Sheryl/Alto supporter, I'm a sucker for male tsunderes...)

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

nah, the war is not on this time..it's just a periodic thing ...it's like the sun will rise everyday...ppl just keep thinking of Ranka and they (well I should probably say "We" since I am probably as guilty) can't help but have to write articles about her every now and then Ranka sure is popular in here

Haha...so I guess I should get used to it...Ranka attracts a lot of attention nowadays, alright...

Originally Posted by ippus

@Rae: I only meant it as an example XDXD of course it can't be him exactly loool

To be honest I think the CCS Syaoran would still be a bit too nice. I think the kind of attitude he had to Sakura around the time before he gave up on Yukito, only without the gay one sided thing for someone else situation would be good XD

In short someone who isn't afraid of being harshly blunt, but is a bit tsundere at the same time XD? And to kill off the overwhelming amount of older brother complexes that she seems to attract, possibly someone who's a little bit selfish as well.

THe dynamic would have been so cute T^T but instead we have a guy who says nice things and a yes-man *sigh*

ahaha, I knew you didn't mean it that way... sorry...anyway, I like tsundere characters, too...but is a Syaoran-like character a tsundere?

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Well, I guess we've talked about Sheryl to death back in the day, and now we need someone else to talk about

Edit (double-posted just now, where are my brains tonight? >.<):

@ ippus: Yes, I agree with a Syaoran-esque tsundere for Ranka! But the funny thing is -- Alto IS a tsundere, only not with Ranka. He's perfectly fine with confronting Sheryl and arguing with her and getting all tsuntsun and deredere, but with Ranka he loses all those quirkiness.

(Maybe that's why I'm a Sheryl/Alto supporter, I'm a sucker for male tsunderes...)

I agree and I agree...although Sheryl is a very good character, she's not the only one that needs our attention...and Alto is INDEED like that in front of Sheryl...(partly because she's like that in front of him, too and I'd like to think partly because, he feels much more comfortable with her in the sense that she's just another friend he can relate to casually WITHOUT the need to play hero or brother or whatever...much like with Mikhail, Luca and Nanase...)

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Not gonna disagree with the rest, but are there any other points in the story until then where he should have told her 'no' or chastised her but didn't?

1. When she got involved in the Macross contest, and then subsequently suspended from school
2. When she went to Gallia 4
3. About Ai-kun, the first time he saw the creature

I don't disagree with this, but I feel you're highlighting a problem with Ranka's character itself, rather than arguing for the premise that Alto is bad for Ranka. If Ranka had fallen for anyone else, then this aspect of her 'relationship' with that person wouldn't have changed.

I already said that Ranka needed to grow up before she gets into a relationship with anybody. Because right now, it is unfair to expect anyone to put up with her maturity or wait for her to realize that she needs to grow up, but its also not fair for her to be with someone who will stifle that growth.

In which case, whether Alto is bad for Ranka or not should come down to him actually noticing and doing something about this dependency or not. I can't argue either way because I just don't remember enough details between that invasion and Ranka leaving, i.e. whether there would have been an occasion for him to bring it up.

No, but Alto did say that he knew that Ranka liked him and chose to ignore it, it really wouldn't surprise me if he knew that she was being overly reliant on him as well.

If you would like to illustrate that, please do...though I should probably clarify that I'm quite happy simply with the idea that "Ranka is bad for Alto, end of story". (シェリル派です〜)

I don't think anyone (even Sheryl) has really explained to Ranka where she has gone wrong, but I'm not convinced they actually had reasonable opportunities to do so in the series itself.

Like Ippus said Micheal did once tell Ranka that she was behaving like a spoiled brat, which she actually needed more of. Sheryl was never really there to witness Ranka behaving as such until episode 20, where she told Ranka to be a professional and do her job. But if you really want to go there you could say that all of Ranka's friends, even Nanase were not good for her, as they were only there to smother her with more attention and were not as critical of her as they usually are with Alto.

@justavisitor
When the series just ended people couldn't stop talking about Sheryl, but when the awe of the series is gone, people start noticing the weaknesses in the series. And sad to say but a series weaknesses are usually discussed more than its strengths.

[justavisitor]

@wisteria233
I wholeheartedly...disagree with your perspective, but anyway opinions are bound to be different, so I will just leave it at that

@raeryne
you really should get used to it lol...normally Ranka's discussion will get popped up in every 1st, 7th, 11th, 21th, and 29th day of every month (obviously it's a joke, but I am afraid that I am not that far off )

[karice67]

@ippus. Thanks. Good example of someone getting Ranka to grow up a little. (I completely forgot...) That said, Alto just might have done the same thing if Ranka had been complaining to him (there's no way to know) - though I'm not sure if Ranka would have complained to someone she likes romantically.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

1. When she got involved in the Macross contest, and then subsequently suspended from school
2. When she went to Gallia 4
3. About Ai-kun, the first time he saw the creature

1. Wasn't Alto the one who encouraged her to sing in the first place (ep.3)? Ranka trying out for the contest despite the objection of the adults around her is completely fitting with his own principles, so it would be out of character for him.
2. No opportunity for that, I feel, given what happens immediately after.
3. It seems like an awfully small thing, especially for a 17-year-old whose interest lie in planes.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

But if you really want to go there you could say that all of Ranka's friends, even Nanase were not good for her, as they were only there to smother her with more attention and were not as critical of her as they usually are with Alto.

Perhaps it's a reaction to the kind of person she is - they feel like they need to protect her from some things (like many parents feel like they need to protect their children).

I think she needs to grow up too. But I also feel that we sometimes forget that she is just 16 (this level of immaturity is quite normal, especially in Japan) - perhaps because Sheryl is unusually mature for her age. What Alto decided to do is also beyond what a normal 16/17-year-old would, which is one of the reasons Michel and Ozma were so serious and critical about it.

Originally Posted by raeryne

It looks like the war is on again, huh?(movie version?)

sorry, I try not to actively ship anyone, but I feel like I'm inadvertantly arguing for Ranka's character more than I would like to, despite what I actually think about the triangle.

Originally Posted by raeryne

ahaha, I knew you didn't mean it that way... sorry...anyway, I like tsundere characters, too...but is a Syaoran-like character a tsundere?

Oh, definitely. He actually fits the original tsundere definition better than a lot of the female characters that are now labeled as such.

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by karice67

sorry, I try not to actively ship anyone, but I feel like I'm inadvertantly arguing for Ranka's character more than I would like to, despite what I actually think about the triangle.

Oh, definitely. He actually fits the original tsundere definition better than a lot of the female characters that are now labeled as such.

Well, I try not to ship too much, too...ahaha...

by the way...how is Syaoran a tsundere?is it before or after he falls in love with Sakura?or is it his character all through out?sorry...just want to know...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

@ippus. Thanks. Good example of someone getting Ranka to grow up a little. (I completely forgot...) That said, Alto just might have done the same thing if Ranka had been complaining to him (there's no way to know) - though I'm not sure if Ranka would have complained to someone she likes romantically.

She did, when she left him that message remember?

1. Wasn't Alto the one who encouraged her to sing in the first place (ep.3)? Ranka trying out for the contest despite the objection of the adults around her is completely fitting with his own principles, so it would be out of character for him.
2. No opportunity for that, I feel, given what happens immediately after.
3. It seems like an awfully small thing, especially for a 17-year-old whose interest lie in planes.

1. He didn't know the consequences of her decision, but she did and yet never said anything to him about it. Plus if a really good friend was potentially ruining their future by following your advice (when you didn't know the consequences of it) what would you tell them? So as a good friend I would chastise them for doing that. Alto not caring about that would equates to Alto not really caring about Ranka.
2. He did have an opportunity in the valkyrie, when she finished performing, on the island. There was a large amount of time in between her appearance in Gallia 4 and the time she got kidnapped.
3. But its not a small thing for a friend who genuinely cares their friend who might be breaking the law.

Perhaps it's a reaction to the kind of person she is - they feel like they need to protect her from some things (like many parents feel like they need to protect their children).

And that's the problem she behaved like a child and they treated her like one, instead of their peer.

I think she needs to grow up too. But I also feel that we sometimes forget that she is just 16 (this level of immaturity is quite normal, especially in Japan) - perhaps because Sheryl is unusually mature for her age. What Alto decided to do is also beyond what a normal 16/17-year-old would, which is one of the reasons Micheal and Ozma were so serious and critical about it.

Its not just Alto and Sheryl who made her immaturity stand out, but remember Michael and Luca? Luca especially made the same choice as Alto, and Michael was the most mature of their group. Heck even Nanase by some regard were all more than her. In fact its safe to say that all of her friends are more mature than her.

sorry, I try not to actively ship anyone, but I feel like I'm inadvertantly arguing for Ranka's character more than I would like to, despite what I actually think about the triangle.

You think you're defending Ranka now, hah! Go into a Mecha forum and try to defend both Ranka and/or Lacus, then come back and tell how that went.

Oh, definitely. He actually fits the original tsundere definition better than a lot of the female characters that are now labeled as such.

Alas one of the few true Tsundere of 2008.

[ippus]

@raeryne: CCS Syaoran is a complete and UTTER Tsundere X'D It's the Tsubasa Syaoran that's not T^T; (thus I deny the two tsubasas.)

@KaoruLia: Iunno. I feel kind off iffy placing Alto into Tsundere category- since I feel like a lot of his denial is more based on his unwillingness to cause an emotional mistake? Like i think if Sheryl was far more open in the beginning with her feelings, he probably would have been fine accepting them- like when she kissed him at the movie set? I thought if Sheryl didn't wave it off as a tease Alto seemed pretty okay with the fact that she may have liked him.

He only starts giving off 'tsundere' vibes when SHeryl seems to be very obviously teasing him.

Besides the kind of tsun tsun I want Ranka to have isn't one that takes all the hits like alto does XD I'd rather more the kind that treats those they like in a really mean fashion because they wouldn't know how to deal with them normally XDDD and when the other side finally had enough of the abuse, ends up getting adorably guilty with droopy dog ears, and would rather die than admit they're going soft :'D ahhh tsun tsun tsun >///<

@wisteria233: Well, I didn't before but nowadays I disagree with the idea that Ranka needs to grow up before having a relationship. Perhaps in the real world that is ideal, but for us watching a fictional world, that's a completely retarded order;;

The point of watching romance shows is to watch a dysfunctional couple grow, not watch two perfect people be perfect with each other. It's what makes fictional chemistry XD

@karice67: Actually, you sort of proved he wouldn't have scolded ranka in that situation XD

1. Wasn't Alto the one who encouraged her to sing in the first place (ep.3)? Ranka trying out for the contest despite the objection of the adults around her is completely fitting with his own principles, so it would be out of character for him.

He would have been all for the "Ozma is a Troll" parade XD

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by ippus

Well, I didn't before but nowadays I disagree with the idea that Ranka needs to grow up before having a relationship. Perhaps in the real world that is ideal, but for us watching a fictional world, that's a completely retarded order;;

The point of watching romance shows is to watch a dysfunctional couple grow, not watch two perfect people be perfect with each other. It's what makes fictional chemistry XD

He would have been all for the "Ozma is a Troll" parade XD

Normally I would agree. Except when the romance show features a love triangle. You can't give the time to develop the dysfunctional couple because there's constantly a third wheel. The only way to keep the other side competitive is to have them mature, then see if they can win.

Realistically, if there are options, the most mature/prepared win. I would choose a guy who has his life together over one who has yet to mature properly.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by ippus

@wisteria233: Well, I didn't before but nowadays I disagree with the idea that Ranka needs to grow up before having a relationship. Perhaps in the real world that is ideal, but for us watching a fictional world, that's a completely retarded order;;

The point of watching romance shows is to watch a dysfunctional couple grow, not watch two perfect people be perfect with each other. It's what makes fictional chemistry XD

You have to remember that before the imperfect couple gets together they have to at least first have an idea on what they want from their significant other, and are also aware of the fact that they might get hurt.

Maintaining a relationship is really stressful, and you have to be willing to put forth hard work in order to make it work. The same is true even in most fictional stories. Hence the problem with Ranka, she never put forth any effort with Alto, and also never put her heart on the line. She has also shown to be unable to handle the stress that would be associated with being in a relationship. You can't just run away from the someone when they don't agree with you.

Sure watching a dysfunctional couple grow is fun, but remember even that dysfunctional couple was somewhat aware of what they were getting themselves into when they decided to pursue a relationship, and are willing to put forth the effort to make it work.

[Amalia]

Just like I have already said in other threads that happen to have to do with the relationship issue on MF, I think that Alto acts like tsundere in front of Sheryl, mainly because Sheryl provokes him to do so...

She called him a servant and then she learnt that his nickname is Hime...and then she started calling him that. Alto would obviously starting to yell... But then again, have you noticed that after every single argument they share a nice scene?

Back in the anime series where Ranka was to play Mao (Sheryl's ancestor hahaha, pure irony I know) Sheryl kissed Alto, because he said that it was JUST a kiss... Sure it was just a kiss in the movie but he was startled when Sheryl did kiss him off the set and he became confused...Sheryl showed him that it was not JUST a kiss when you do it with the personyou like, then again she told him that she was joking and here they were at it again.

I don't dislike Ranka, as in hate... It's just that i found her annoying sometimes. She's like watch me singing, watch me dancing I did it yay!!! Ok you did it.... *sigh* She is like a little girl that wants the attention, sometimes...
Michael sure provoked her into singing in the Zentradi town and this is where it all started for Ranka. Sheryl also said that she is talented and so did Alto...

As for Ranka's and Alto's relationship I think that although Ranka has a crush on him and Alto gets confused over his feelings sometimes I think that the relationship they share is a very strong friendship on the matter. At least I think that Alto feels for her in that way. The only "love scene" that they shared was in the kissing scene in the movie.

Now we have Sheryl, who when she is in the same frame with Alto sparks exist all over the screen. I personally loved watching those two arguing, blushing, sharing their moments.
During their date, or in Northern Cross or in episode 24...Seriously when she told him that "let's leave the lovers business for later" why was he irritated and grabbed her hand? If he didn't like her. And I mean LiKE LIKE her and not in Ranka-sister-style. Sheryl kissed him and what would he say before she interrupted him? ( now that I think about it we should blame Sheryl for the still existance of the love triangle...LET the man speak!)
OK my point is that sure Ranka had her chances and Alto was there for her many times, but I felt like he was there instead of Ozma and not because of his love for her. On the other hand whenever he was with Sheryl, seemed to me like it was because fate decided for their meeting...

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by ippus

Besides the kind of tsun tsun I want Ranka to have isn't one that takes all the hits like alto does XD I'd rather more the kind that treats those they like in a really mean fashion because they wouldn't know how to deal with them normally XDDD and when the other side finally had enough of the abuse, ends up getting adorably guilty with droopy dog ears, and would rather die than admit they're going soft :'D ahhh tsun tsun tsun >///<

Ahh... that type of tsundere.... I'm reminded of Zero from Vampire freaking Knight Because Yuuki is kinda similar to Ranka (naivety and repressed childhood memories).

Originally Posted by ippus

@KaoruLia: Iunno. I feel kind off iffy placing Alto into Tsundere category- since I feel like a lot of his denial is more based on his unwillingness to cause an emotional mistake? Like i think if Sheryl was far more open in the beginning with her feelings, he probably would have been fine accepting them- like when she kissed him at the movie set? I thought if Sheryl didn't wave it off as a tease Alto seemed pretty okay with the fact that she may have liked him.

He only starts giving off 'tsundere' vibes when Sheryl seems to be very obviously teasing him.

Honestly, I never did notice that! I rewatched some of the early scenes, and you're right. Your theory seems consistent with Alto's bizarre behaviour during the course of the series.

I believe that he technically fell for her after the Star Date's goodbye kiss -- after all, he was kind of distant in the next episode, staring at her earring in class, not enthusiatic during Ranka's celebratory lunch, then getting all worked up to return Sheryl's earring, sharing a deep conversation together, staring at her earring AGAIN in the cockpit with a smile on his face... etc, but when Sheryl suddenly enrolled herself into his school and claimed that he was her 'slave' (and constantly teasing him with mixed signals), I think he sort of put on a tsundere facade to avoid any emotional embarassment. Also notice that once he was clear of Sheryl's feelings for him, he dropped that facade and confronted Sheryl in episode 22.

[Amalia]

He dropped the facade and her clothes on the floor!!!! hihihihihi

Anyway, I think that when Alto is in a conversation with Ranka he keeps a kind of distance and this is why it reminds me of a brother/sister relationship. He supports her and listens to her and that's that..
On the other hand when he is with Sheryl he gets all worked up and his shows different faces...He gets angry he blushes, he becomes tsundere (LOL Alto-Hime you are full of emotions huh?), he smiles, he becomes serious, he acts more like a man than a brother or a boy...

what do you think?

P.S

I believe that he technically fell for her after the Star Date's goodbye kiss

KaoruLia, I believe that he did fell for her in that exact moment too... He showed him a side of hers that he wouldn't have ever imagined.... (although when I think of the scene in his locker...huhuhuhu)


As for Alto's tsundere mode on....he so much into that mode when he is with Sheryl...First yells, gets angry and then he is like a lovestruck....I love it when it is like this because you can easily tell that there are so many emotions, now when did that happen with Ranka?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

She did, when she left him that message remember?

Well...I don't. m(_ _ )m Saw it just once, and over a year ago...

Originally Posted by wisteria233

1. He didn't know the consequences of her decision, but she did and yet never said anything to him about it. Plus if a really good friend was potentially ruining their future by following your advice (when you didn't know the consequences of it) what would you tell them? So as a good friend I would chastise them for doing that. Alto not caring about that would equates to Alto not really caring about Ranka.
2. He did have an opportunity in the valkyrie, when she finished performing, on the island. There was a large amount of time in between her appearance in Gallia 4 and the time she got kidnapped.
3. But its not a small thing for a friend who genuinely cares their friend who might be breaking the law.

1. er...I'm not sure I'm following you. If you don't know the consequences of it, why would you chastise him/her? Also, I'm not sure this is the best example to use, because there is a line of thought that you should go all out for what you really want to do, even if it might not fit what society or your elders think is best for you.
2. Touche. Though considering that she came to save them, is scolding her immediately the right response? Personally, I'd save it for after I get her home safely.
3. Ideally, yes. Realistically, I would say that most 17-year-olds wouldn't be Nazis about a friend breaking the law - typically because they themselves don't understand the significance/importance of those laws in the first place. And Ranka's obviously had Ai-kun for a while and is attached to it - Alto dismissed it as being relatively unimportant compared to the fact that she had her live the next day, i.e. he put her mental well-being first. Should he have? No...but rather than strongly objecting there and then (which would have had an adverse effect, I reckon), he probably should have checked up on it himself. One of his flaws, yes, but a rather accurate depiction of what a typical teenager would have done.

Originally Posted by ippus

@karice67: Actually, you sort of proved he wouldn't have scolded ranka in that situation XD

I wasn't trying to disprove it.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Its not just Alto and Sheryl who made her immaturity stand out, but remember Michael and Luca? Luca especially made the same choice as Alto, and Michael was the most mature of their group. Heck even Nanase by some regard were all more than her. In fact its safe to say that all of her friends are more mature than her.

Sure. But are they all normal 16/17 year olds? No. (Even Nanase - going by spoilers in the novel thread.)

Originally Posted by wisteria233

You think you're defending Ranka now, hah! Go into a Mecha forum and try to defend both Ranka and/or Lacus, then come back and tell how that went.

I know I'm not really defending her. Maybe I should have just said "you don't have to bother pointing out stuff, because it wouldn't make much of a difference to me anyway." On the flip side, if I don't quite see the logic of something that is pointed out, I will try to find loopholes, which is silly of me when you're all actually supporting the pairing I prefer anyway.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Alas one of the few true Tsundere of 2008.

Er...talking about the !CCS Shaoran though...

@ raeryne

Spoiler for on Shaoran:

Originally Posted by raeryne

by the way...how is Syaoran a tsundere?is it before or after he falls in love with Sakura?or is it his character all through out?sorry...just want to know...

Going by the original definition of tsundere as someone who starts off being hostile but eventually becomes affectionate to a character (usu. the main character). (from Lucky Star).

In CCS, he starts off as a rival for Yukito and the Clow Cards, but eventually falls in love with Sakura. And he LITERALLY becomes lovestruck when he's around her.

[ippus]

@Foreshadow: I disagree once again, because I find it difficult to assume that Ranka's immaturity was the sole and/or greatest reason for why she couldn't and shouldn't win the triangle, because I don't feel like Sheryl was vastly more mature herself.

I feel that Sheryl only really seems more mature because she never gets to do any great leaps in the story, like go searching for answers about her past (since any history of her we get to know about was found by other characters), or get kidnapped by random monsters that are attracted to her. She spends the first half of the show under Grace's watch, and the latter part sick. Her time to do something exciting like sing to giant, war loving Zentradi hordes was stolen from her by illness and Ranka's show, and her moment as the new Songstress of hope was completely swallowed by SharonApple!Ranka (in short it was kind of a joke until Ranka magically cured her;; )

On the rare occasion that she does do something drastically crazy, she chose to randomly enroll in an academy to follow (*coughstalkcough*) a guy she found interesting, in a field she had zero talent in (lmao). She destroyed most of the said academy chasing after her underwear (mature? really?) and hell, she stole a date with Alto by blackmailing his most important charm (in with my boobies you go~) whilst making sure the entire academy knew he was her personal slave XD

In short she didn't really get to do very much, nor did her environment allow her to flaunt her very VERY apparent immaturity, but when she finally did it's obvious that...Sheryl-sama is one big whacko ]D.

What made her immaturity and crazy ass antics work, is that Alto reciprocated her interest. I know for a fact that I wouldn't have liked the AruSheri shipping as much (or at all, even if I would still have been an immense Sheriru-sama fan and hated Alto with a passion) if Alto didn't react to her. If he paid attention to Ranka and if he went to visit her by choice rather than be called or dragged along by other people, Sheryl would have been the pest fringe Ranka-fans keep accusing her of being.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

You have to remember that before the imperfect couple gets together they have to at least first have an idea on what they want from their significant other, and are also aware of the fact that they might get hurt.

(...)

Sure watching a dysfunctional couple grow is fun, but remember even that dysfunctional couple was somewhat aware of what they were getting themselves into when they decided to pursue a relationship, and are willing to put forth the effort to make it work.

I can't agree because nobody goes through that many processes before pursuing someone romantically. Perhaps if you are deeply traumatized by past relationships gone horribly wrong, but usually fictional relationships are never about rationality, it's simply about chemistry and the unexplainable. Alto and Sheryl clicked, that's all there really is to it.

I believe Ranka did try. She just couldn't because Alto was never on the same page as her. She ended up hopelessly flailing around before finally realizing giant gap between them at the worst possible moment.

Sure, she went on to do idiotic things but in her defense, everyone was so preoccupied with their own lives that only Yes-man Manslut Burera was giving her advice on what to do next X'D. Too bad it seems idiotic ideas happens to run in the family ]D (It's okay Manslut, I love you. Please find a good hawt looking seme to r@pe u plx. You're too hawtastic for a woman.) but I don't feel it's grounds for her NOT to have a relationship until she grows up- but rather grounds for her to find a matching person interested enough in her to want her to grow- and not just dote like crazy as manslut did XD

She also wasn't in a relationship so i don't see how you can conclude that she's incapable of handling the stress brought about by one XD


@KaoruLia: I keep far far FAR away from Vampire frekkin Knight XD Ever since Anne Rice I have kept all Vampirism in a corner ditch where they belong- with exception to Vassalord and Tsubasa's re-rendition of Kamui. Otherwise I'm a nono to all Vampires for any reason other than sattire (Terry Pratchett ILU <3)

However I think i know what kind of character he is, and it's probably right.

I just feel like a lot of the Ranka x Alto interaction is really similar to a Sakura x Yukito interaction gone horribly wrong (with alienz).

@karice67: Neither did I say you did XD i merely pointed out that you disproved its possibility.