Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

I'm a big enough fan to be here when/if that future comes, but I'm aware that I'm in a dwindling group of people who still care about this franchise.

I think there's still a lot of interest in Madoka Magica. I come across a lot of people with Madoka Magica-based avatars or sigs, both here and elsewhere (including on Twitter). When it comes to fanart and fanfics, Madoka Magica is still going very strong, much stronger than the vast majority of anime shows that have aired since Madoka Magica first aired. Madoka Magica's key plot twists are pretty much at "Luke, I am your father" level. There's precious few anime shows I can honestly say that about.

I get that you want people to not get too hyped up, and that's fine. But let's not severely downplay this franchise or its fandom in the process. This franchise still enjoys a lot of people that care passionately about it.

[ilcane87]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think there's still a lot of interest in Madoka Magica. I come across a lot of people with Madoka Magica-based avatars or sigs, both here and elsewhere (including on Twitter). When it comes to fanart and fanfics, Madoka Magica is still going very strong, much stronger than the vast majority of anime shows that have aired since Madoka Magica first aired. Madoka Magica's key plot twists are pretty much at "Luke, I am your father" level. There's precious few anime shows I can honestly say that about.

I get that you want people to not get too hyped up, and that's fine. But let's not severely downplay this franchise or its fandom in the process. This franchise still enjoys a lot of people that care passionately about it.

Not to mention that right after they announced the concept movie, "Madomagi new work" became the top trend on Twitter in Japan, followed closely by "Madoka Magica", and they stayed for a while.
I don't think many anime would have enjoyed such a response to a minor announcement.

It had pretty funny results too, as plenty of Japanese people started mistaking the unpopular April Fools fake sequel trailer for the real thing.

[Solace]

This franchise still enjoys a lot of people that care passionately about it.

So does Evangelion. And Full Metal Panic. And Nanoha. I'm still not wrong, or did I somehow miss a surge of interest that isn't from the usual posters of this subforum suddenly appear, expressing excitement for a potential sequel announcement?

I said dwindling, not extinct.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

So does Evangelion. And Full Metal Panic. And Nanoha.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove or demonstrate. These three properties are much older than Madoka Magica. All three have enjoyed very good runs, and continue to have good-sized fandoms. NGE received a series of Reboot movies. Nanoha ViVid had an anime adaptation not that long ago. And FMP very recently received a new anime announcement that rocked the anime fandom world.

These three properties should in fact give hope to Madoka Magica fans who'd like to see more PMMM anime.

I'm still not wrong, or did I somehow miss a surge of interest that isn't from the usual posters of this subforum suddenly appear, expressing excitement for a potential sequel announcement?

Well, ilcane87 and dcarr198989 are both active on the two most recent pages of this thread, and dcarr198989 only joined two days ago. Neither yet has more than 11 AS posts. So there is in fact some interest on this subforum that isn't coming from the usual posters. Also...

Originally Posted by ilcane87

Not to mention that right after they announced the concept movie, "Madomagi new work" became the top trend on Twitter in Japan, followed closely by "Madoka Magica", and they stayed for a while.
I don't think many anime would have enjoyed such a response to a minor announcement.

If this is true (and I don't find it hard to believe it is), then that speaks well of Madoka Magica's continued fandom strength. Thanks for the info, ilcane87.

[ilcane87]

I don't think PMMM's popularity needs further proving, considering its record-breaking sales.

Anyway, these are apparently storyboard pics of the movie:

Spoiler for size:

And an off-screen picture:



EDIT: the sketches are fan-made.

[Triple_R]

^Ballet-dancing Madoka and partially-masked Sayaka are so so cool.

Thanks for sharing ilcane87.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Solace

So does Evangelion. And Full Metal Panic. And Nanoha. I'm still not wrong, or did I somehow miss a surge of interest that isn't from the usual posters of this subforum suddenly appear, expressing excitement for a potential sequel announcement?

I said dwindling, not extinct.

Just because people don't talk about the same thing they've talked about for years doesn't mean they aren't still fans. And why would people bother post about their excitement when there are so many naysayers and debbie downers who just bark at them to knock it off because it's not "officially announced"?

[ilcane87]

Nevermind, found out from the source that those sketches are fan-made.

Guess they're still useful as a depiction of the events though.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by GDB

Just because people don't talk about the same thing they've talked about for years doesn't mean they aren't still fans. And why would people bother post about their excitement when there are so many naysayers and debbie downers who just bark at them to knock it off because it's not "officially announced"?

I still post even when I've got anger being thrown at me, I actually like the chaos being positive induced as it shows peoples lack of tolerance. XD

That being said Solace, you are wrong as you cannot really gauge the fandom of a franchise through a small-ish forum such as Animesuki. It's as others have said, if Madoka Magica reached number 1 on Twitter in multiple forms... Well that just tells us the opposite of what you claim. Most fans will be quiet whilst there isn't much new information or content within their favourite series, but as soon as something is announced then it becomes huge, especially to a franchise like Madoka Magica.

It doesn't matter anyways, there will be new Madoka content as either a second season, 4th film or hell, perhaps both of those and more. The concept film was shown and has received a huge amount of attention and thus has secured the franchises future.

[Solace]

This goes for everyone who responded to me:

Really? Are you completely positive? Absolutely sure? You have people who know people who know SHAFT employees? They're absolutely going to make something now that they know that this "movie" was positively received?

FFS, I hate resorting to blatant sarcasm like that but you guys are acting like we're back in 2011 when Madoka was ridiculously huge and that SHAFT is absolutely for sure going to be releasing a full blown movie or tv show next year. I get it, it's exciting, you're excited, huzzah.

Is reading comprehension that hard? Is it? Is it really that difficult to take a look at any place which once had a huge fandom for something and realize that, at least in regards to anime, they tend to shrink and consolidate down to the hardcore? I've spent (more than) a decade on this site, almost as long on many others like it. I'd like to think that I have some finger on the pulse of the anime community, even if I'm not always liking what I see.

I never said new fans of Madoka weren't being created.
I never said that previous fans couldn't be or weren't being re-engaged.
I never said that SHAFT will absolutely never ever make more movies/shows.
I never said that people wouldn't be excited, including people who never come to places like this forum.

All I said is that the fanbase is dwindling, which was not meant to be some kind of slight or insult, but simple observational logic backed by years of watching this happen to pretty much every "big" anime ever. Madoka had a peak, back when the disaster struck, and the hype and resulting success of that time is/was lightning in a bottle. No matter how good a new entry into the franchise is, it cannot reach that peak again without some divine intervention.

I like Madoka, I really do. But if cultural juggernauts like Dragonball and Evangelion have dwindled in popularity, so too will Madoka. It's already happening. I never said it would happen overnight.

It's not "wrong". It's just the truth. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your Twitter statistics and I'm sorry that I have to sound like an ass over a simple plea to stop acting like everyone who isn't on the hype train is on the wrong side of the discussion.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by Solace

This goes for everyone who responded to me:

Really? Are you completely positive? Absolutely sure? You have people who know people who know SHAFT employees? They're absolutely going to make something now that they know that this "movie" was positively received?

FFS, I hate resorting to blatant sarcasm like that but you guys are acting like we're back in 2011 when Madoka was ridiculously huge and that SHAFT is absolutely for sure going to be releasing a full blown movie or tv show next year. I get it, it's exciting, you're excited, huzzah.

Is reading comprehension that hard? Is it? Is it really that difficult to take a look at any place which once had a huge fandom for something and realize that, at least in regards to anime, they tend to shrink and consolidate down to the hardcore? I've spent (more than) a decade on this site, almost as long on many others like it. I'd like to think that I have some finger on the pulse of the anime community, even if I'm not always liking what I see.

I never said new fans of Madoka weren't being created.
I never said that previous fans couldn't be or weren't being re-engaged.
I never said that SHAFT will absolutely never ever make more movies/shows.
I never said that people wouldn't be excited, including people who never come to places like this forum.

All I said is that the fanbase is dwindling, which was not meant to be some kind of slight or insult, but simple observational logic backed by years of watching this happen to pretty much every "big" anime ever. Madoka had a peak, back when the disaster struck, and the hype and resulting success of that time is/was lightning in a bottle. No matter how good a new entry into the franchise is, it cannot reach that peak again without some divine intervention.

I like Madoka, I really do. But if cultural juggernauts like Dragonball and Evangelion have dwindled in popularity, so too will Madoka. It's already happening. I never said it would happen overnight.

It's not "wrong". It's just the truth. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your Twitter statistics and I'm sorry that I have to sound like an ass over a simple plea to stop acting like everyone who isn't on the hype train is on the wrong side of the discussion.

... I think you need to calm down. ^^

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Solace

Really? Are you completely positive? Absolutely sure? You have people who know people who know SHAFT employees? They're absolutely going to make something now that they know that this "movie" was positively received?

I don't see what this has to do with anything? Anyone who says that it's officially confirmed is just as wrong as anyone saying it means absolutely nothing. Two extremes, both wrong, real answer somewhere in between.

Is reading comprehension that hard? Is it? Is it really that difficult to take a look at any place which once had a huge fandom for something and realize that, at least in regards to anime, they tend to shrink and consolidate down to the hardcore? I've spent (more than) a decade on this site, almost as long on many others like it. I'd like to think that I have some finger on the pulse of the anime community, even if I'm not always liking what I see.

I never said new fans of Madoka weren't being created.
I never said that previous fans couldn't be or weren't being re-engaged.
I never said that SHAFT will absolutely never ever make more movies/shows.
I never said that people wouldn't be excited, including people who never come to places like this forum.

All I said is that the fanbase is dwindling, which was not meant to be some kind of slight or insult, but simple observational logic backed by years of watching this happen to pretty much every "big" anime ever. Madoka had a peak, back when the disaster struck, and the hype and resulting success of that time is/was lightning in a bottle. No matter how good a new entry into the franchise is, it cannot reach that peak again without some divine intervention.

I like Madoka, I really do. But if cultural juggernauts like Dragonball and Evangelion have dwindled in popularity, so too will Madoka. It's already happening. I never said it would happen overnight.

It's not "wrong". It's just the truth. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your Twitter statistics and I'm sorry that I have to sound like an ass over a simple plea to stop acting like everyone who isn't on the hype train is on the wrong side of the discussion.

The connotation of calling it a "dwindling group" isn't the same as "less than its peak". I merely responded to this thought that there has to be a "surge" of new posters hyped about the potential for another movie/series, despite said expectation being surrounded with apparent anger at anyone who thinks there's potential for a new movie/series.

Hell, until this news I pretty much stopped coming to this subforum because there was nothing new to talk about, and any time anyone brought up the potential of something new it was quickly shamed into submission. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Similar reason to why I rarely go into the Shokugeki no Soma or Akame ga Kill threads.

Again, just because people don't post about it doesn't mean they're no longer fans.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

... I think you need to calm down. ^^

I'm a tempest in a teapot, thanks.

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't see what this has to do with anything? Anyone who says that it's officially confirmed is just as wrong as anyone saying it means absolutely nothing. Two extremes, both wrong, real answer somewhere in between.

Right, and what started this entire tangent was a plea from my end toward a certain poster who has been acting as if something concrete was actually announced, who was being aggressively dismissive toward those who expressed doubts and/or concerns. I made a comment about my desire to remain a long term fan regardless of the shrinking interest in the franchise, and that was blown up into "Solace is wrong, lots of people still love Madoka!"

At which point I could only facepalm, because apparently "not as popular as it was" means "no one cares about it anymore".

The connotation of calling it a "dwindling group" isn't the same as "less than its peak". I merely responded to this thought that there has to be a "surge" of new posters hyped about the potential for another movie/series, despite said expectation being surrounded with apparent anger at anyone who thinks there's potential for a new movie/series.

Hell, until this news I pretty much stopped coming to this subforum because there was nothing new to talk about, and any time anyone brought up the potential of something new it was quickly shamed into submission. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Similar reason to why I rarely go into the Shokugeki no Soma or Akame ga Kill threads.

If something is less than its peak, it has dwindled. The connotation is not negative, it's an observational statement. Why wouldn't someone expect a surge of new or former posters to suddenly appear when big news is announced? I know this forum isn't the only, or even the biggest, Madoka community out there, but discussions here in recent years have been dominated by the same handful of names and new blood is scarce. Either we're the exception to the rule, or every other community for this particular fandom isn't as big as it used to be. From what I've seen, the answer is that we're not unique.

Sorry but I haven't really seen anyone expressing anger or shaming toward others for wanting to see or at least discuss possible new material. Just because people are strongly opinionated about the ending that does not mean they're against new material, and I can't recall anyone intentionally being angry or attempting to shame another member for their desires to see more sequels.

Again, just because people don't post about it doesn't mean they're no longer fans.

I never said otherwise. But it doesn't change what I said about the shrinking fanbase. It will continue to shrink, and it will stabilize for a bit, and then shrink again, repeated until something pushes it back into mainstream consciousness for a time.

Peaks and valleys. Occasional plateaus. But the biggest peak has (imo) already occurred and no future peaks will compare to it. Again, in my opinion.

But hey, I'm "wrong" for having that opinion. Or something.

Anyway, I've said my peace. I honestly didn't expect one small section of something I said to be blown this far out of context, but I'm sure we have better, more interesting things to talk about, no?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Solace

Right, and what started this entire tangent was a plea from my end toward a certain poster who has been acting as if something concrete was actually announced, who was being aggressively dismissive toward those who expressed doubts and/or concerns. I made a comment about my desire to remain a long term fan regardless of the shrinking interest in the franchise, and that was blown up into "Solace is wrong, lots of people still love Madoka!"

At which point I could only facepalm, because apparently "not as popular as it was" means "no one cares about it anymore".

Understood. That makes sense then. Most of the posts the past few pages read so similarly that things just sort of blended together.

Why wouldn't someone expect a surge of new or former posters to suddenly appear when big news is announced?

Well, just from my observations of other series, you pretty much don't get many posters until it actually comes out, then people swarm until about a week after it's finished (or in the case of a movie, for a couple of weeks when it first hits theatres, then a couple of weeks after the BD/subs release). There's enough other series on this forum itself to talk about that most people just move on to the next thing regardless of whether they're fans or not.

Sorry but I haven't really seen anyone expressing anger or shaming toward others for wanting to see or at least discuss possible new material. Just because people are strongly opinionated about the ending that does not mean they're against new material, and I can't recall anyone intentionally being angry or attempting to shame another member for their desires to see more sequels.

Don't recall which thread it was in (probably the movie thread), but I specifically remember somewhat heated arguments coming up when people said they wanted another sequel (or even just a spin-off).

I never said otherwise. But it doesn't change what I said about the shrinking fanbase. It will continue to shrink, and it will stabilize for a bit, and then shrink again, repeated until something pushes it back into mainstream consciousness for a time.

Peaks and valleys. Occasional plateaus. But the biggest peak has (imo) already occurred and no future peaks will compare to it. Again, in my opinion.

I think I figured it out. You're interchanging "fans" with "community". Yes, the community discussing it is smaller, because there's only just so much you can discuss without new material. But that doesn't mean people just stop being fans.

but I'm sure we have better, more interesting things to talk about, no?

That's kind of the basis of my "fan" argument, so I'm going to say no.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

Right, and what started this entire tangent was a plea from my end toward a certain poster who has been acting as if something concrete was actually announced, who was being aggressively dismissive toward those who expressed doubts and/or concerns. I made a comment about my desire to remain a long term fan regardless of the shrinking interest in the franchise, and that was blown up into "Solace is wrong, lots of people still love Madoka!"

GDB is right about the connotation that "dwindling group" has. That connotation was the main reason I responded to your post there. But I now get that you meant something more mild than the impression I took from it, so this is mere semantics really.

While you're generally right about the life-cycle of a fandom, there are exceptions. Not every property is at its peak early on. My impression is that the Nanoha fandom took off after Nanoha A's, and might have even grown some more with StrikerS. I also get a strong impression that Love Live! is bigger today than it was when its first anime season aired in 2013.

Now, I agree that so far Madoka Magica was at its peak around when its final TV episode aired back in 2011. But it's not unthinkable to me that it could surpass that peak sometime in the future. It's not likely, but it's possible. And while Madoka Magica is not at its peak level, I don't think its experienced particularly harsh decline. If anything, I think it's held pretty well for a property that first aired in 2011 and has had no new anime content since 2013.


The tone on this thread has probably been overly harsh the last few pages, so I completely understand why you wrote what you did. But I don't see this as an one-sided issue - GDB is right: Some people here really do act like Debbie Downers whenever sequel speculation pops up, and I can understand other fans getting sick and tired of it, frankly.

Some of the more passionately pro-sequel people should try to calm down some, but the Debbie Downers should learn to loosen up a bit as well, in my opinion.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Some people here really do act like Debbie Downers whenever sequel speculation pops up, and I can understand other fans getting sick and tired of it, frankly.

I simply try to warn that nothing is confirmed yet and may not happen at all. I'm not talking out of ass, I always give some contradictory facts that not everything may go well. Fans like some people here will be far more depressed with their ruined hopes, if something goes wrong and nothing happens in near future.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by woxx

I simply try to warn that nothing is confirmed yet and may not happen at all. I'm not talking out of ass, I always give some contradictory facts that not everything may go well. Fans like some people here will be far more depressed with their ruined hopes, if something goes wrong and nothing happens in near future.

I get the feeling that when more PMMM comes along it'll be you who'll have your hopes ruined, that's why you're so staunchly against anyone being excited over more, you don't want more and are trying to subdue the hype of others in the process.

Confirmation doesn't mean everything in this world, if everyone had to wait for confirmation on this or confirmation on that then the human society would not have evolved to the point it has. My advice for you would be to stop thinking that everything needs to have some sort of "100% confirmation" attitude. ^^

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

I get the feeling that when more PMMM comes along it'll be you who'll have your hopes ruined

You are right here. Rebellion is a beautiful story with very high budget and great production quality. Even people who hate the ending, can't disagree with my previous statement.
Next sequel will drop quality in scenario and in animation. it's inevitable. If Aniplex wanted to spend big money for Madoka again, shaft would already announce it long ago. Now they literally are showing that they don't know what to do by this concept movie. One bad sequel - franchsie won't just die, it will be doomed. Same thing actually happened with Nanoha.
They should choose evangelion way and revive franchise with something rebuild-like. Industry showed that it's very succesful move.
So yes my hopes will be ruined when they announce a sequel. It want be the same Madoka for me anymore, especially if Urobuchi doesn't write it. I probably will enjoy it anyway and take part in a lot of discussion, and it doesn't matter how bad it will be. But franchise will simply loose its big name which is sad.

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

that's why you're so staunchly against anyone being excited over more, you don't want more and are trying to subdue the hype of others in the process.

That is wrong. You will be even more hyped, if I'm actually wrong in everything.

[ilcane87]

Originally Posted by woxx

You are right here. Rebellion is a beautiful story with very high budget and great production quality. Even people who hate the ending, can't disagree with my previous statement.
Next sequel will drop quality in scenario and in animation. it's inevitable. If Aniplex wanted to spend big money for Madoka again, shaft would already announce it long ago. Now they literally are showing that they don't know what to do by this concept movie. One bad sequel - franchsie won't just die, it will be doomed. Same thing actually happened with Nanoha.
They should choose evangelion way and revive franchise with something rebuild-like. Industry showed that it's very succesful move.
So yes my hopes will be ruined when they announce a sequel. It want be the same Madoka for me anymore, especially if Urobuchi doesn't write it. I probably will enjoy it anyway and take part in a lot of discussion, and it doesn't matter how bad it will be. But franchise will simply loose its big name which is sad.

It's great that you like Rebellion so much, so do I, and you know what? Nothing will ever change that movie, not a bad sequel, not a bad reputation, not money-hungry corporations, nothing.

With that said, even if they won't make new content exactly the way you would have liked, you do acknowledge that you might still enjoy this (likely) sequel, so isn't that potential way better than getting nothing at all?
"The franchise might lose its big name", you say? Why would you even care about something like that?

Anime is entertainment, so whenever you get more of it, it's a win for you.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by woxx

You are right here. Rebellion is a beautiful story with very high budget and great production quality. Even people who hate the ending, can't disagree with my previous statement.

Great production quality? Sure. High budget? Oh, certainly. Beautiful story? And you claim that people can't disagree with this statement? If that were the case, the past two years' worth of complaining would not have happened. Not to mention you're completely contradicting yourself in that last sentence by saying that apparently this "beautiful" story is something that even people who hate the ending would by necessity have to agree on... If the ending is complete garbage then it's not a good story. And this is not me saying this just because I don't like Rebellion's ending, I mean this as a general thing. It doesn't matter how great the rest of a story is, if the ending can't deliver, then I can not in good conscience call it a good story. In fact, there are few things so utterly destructive to the quality of a story than a bad ending. To take a random example, I remember watching a few episodes of the anime Usagi Drop a few years back... then I learned how the manga to that series ends. And just knowing where the story would ultimately lead, the series was completely ruined to me and I could never look at it the same way again.

...Of course, I do in fact completely agree with you that any hypothetical Madoka sequel would probably not be as good as the show. I don't care for how you speak as if this is an inevitable, unquestionable fact being that we don't even have word that such a sequel exists yet, let alone what it will be about or who will be involved, but yeah, quality-wise, the franchise is probably past its prime.
I still want one more sequel though. Because as I believe we've firmly established by now, I simply cannot bring myself to agree with you that the ending to Rebellion was a satisfying conclusion. To me, ending it here would be sort of like if Star Wars ended with The Empire Strikes Back. Sure, Return of the Jedi was not as good as Empire, and there are plenty of third sequels that just outright suck like the third Matrix or Pirates of the Carribean movies... but I still argue that every single one of those movies were necessary due to every single one of them ending their second installments either on a cliffhanger or a last-minute plot-twist that raises a ton of questions. Matrix Revolutions was a terrible movie, certainly... but I'll take a world where that movie exists over a movie where the end of the story is "Neo lying uncoscious in a sick-bay right next to a guy who plans to kill him". Just like I'd take a world where a bad Madoka sequel exists over a world where the last word on the franchise is "Homura rewrites the world and creates a new status-quo but said new status-quo is demonstrated to be extremely fragile and unlikely to last very long".