[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[LaplaceNoMa]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

We were told specifically by Gaap. Seals=//=Closed Room.

I'm not talking about that.

Having a gaping hole in the wall is no way different from leaving a chain unlocked or breaking the seal. Because it, in itself, clearly denies the illusion of magic.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

I'm not talking about that.

Having a gaping hole in the wall is no way different from leaving a chain unlocked or breaking the seal. Because it, in itself, clearly denies the illusion of magic.

Or, say, having the window seals broken in the room over.

The denial of the illusion of magic was only a factor until Erika revealed her slaughter of the victims. After that, Battler was thoroughly trapped, and the objective changed from "Befuddle Erika with a closed room" to "Save myself from being trapped for all eternity in this room."

If that's the objective, it seems perfectly reasonable to blow a hole in the wall of a room.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The denial of the illusion of magic was only a factor until Erika revealed her slaughter of the victims. After that, Battler was thoroughly trapped, and the objective changed from "Befuddle Erika with a closed room" to "Save myself from being trapped for all eternity in this room."

If that's the objective, it seems perfectly reasonable to blow a hole in the wall of a room.

If it were that simple than forget the wall breaking the window with a blunt object should of worked, but he tried that and it didn't work. I'd think that even if he had something to break the wall of his room and used them to try and solve it'd be just like nothing happened.

what makes you think they can't say 'the walls are normal' in red when Beato could say all the windows and doors are normal previously? So no it's not reasonable. It's not even breaking the closed room status of the cousins room. When did Gaap ever say leaving through the walls was an option?

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If it were that simple than forget the wall breaking the window with a blunt object should of worked, but he tried that and it didn't work. I'd think that even if he had something to break the wall of his room and used them to try and solve it'd be just like nothing happened.

what makes you think they can't say 'the walls are normal' in red when Beato could say all the windows and doors are normal previously? So no it's not reasonable. It's not even breaking the closed room status of the cousins room. When did Gaap ever say leaving through the walls was an option?

The window was sealed. He was able to break the glass of the window, but unable to break the frame, as the seals were intact.

Beato can claim the status of the doors, as she's a witch. Erika has only been given domain over the seals, which are as good as the Red Truth. The walls were not sealed, so Erika cannot claim anything for them.

The holey wall theory doesn't help the Cousin's room, but it should have been a route to turn to for breaking out of the room over.

So is Shkanontrice canon now?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

So is Shkanontrice canon now?

Not exactly no. It's incredibly hinted on, but saying that it's canon right away is still early. We will probably get some confirmation of it being official (or unofficial) in EP 7 I think.

[Judoh]

The only ways Kanon can escape that cousins room are that he was never in there when it was sealed in the first place or his real name is one of those that are excluded like Kinzo and the people in the next room over (and half of this second part has been sorta denied). Those are our only options.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The walls were not sealed, so Erika cannot claim anything for them.

Yes obviously. You would not claim anything for something that makes a room a room nor can you seal a wall because it's an obvious barrier that makes the room sealed. That's a given. Plus they're not exits therefore there is no need to even think about claiming that.

The holey wall theory doesn't help the Cousin's room, but it should have been a route to turn to for breaking out of the room over.

Why wouldn't the window work? The blue truth seal was removed remember? I think you should reread the game.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The only ways Kanon can escape that cousins room are that he was never in there when it was sealed in the first place or his name is among those that are excluded like Kinzo and the people in the next room over (and half of this second part has been sorta denied). Those are our only options.



Yes obviously. You would not claim anything for something that makes a room a room nor can you seal a wall because it's an obvious barrier that makes the room sealed. That's a given. Plus they're not exits therefore there is no need to even think about claiming that.

Yes, my theory can't help solve the riddle at the end. As soon as Kanon gets mixed in, mine falls apart.

My argument is that prior to that, Battler could have gotten out of the closed room by opening up the room over.

-Erika checks the room for passages and the like, finds none. There is no hole in the wall.
-Erika leaves.
-Enters Battler's room, traps Battler.
-Anyone in the room over then opens the wall. Erika has domain over the seals, so she can show they are unbroken. She can only check the walls if present. She is not present.

Currently, is there a way to solve the final closed room without Shkanon?

[Judoh]

Let me confirm a few things with you then

1. are you saying Battler revised the story in a way we're never shown he did just so your theory can work?
2. are you saying Battler never left through the door when it's been said in red that he did?
3. Are you aware that the cousins room and the next room over are in the guesthouse while Battler's guest room is in the mansion?
4. are you aware the whole point of the shkanon theory working as a solution relies on the seals of the window in the next room over not being intact?

Currently, is there a way to solve the final closed room without Shkanon?

WOW... if you mean a solution for how Kanon rescued Battler then you really have a reading comprehension problem... I just described two of them. And yes there have been solutions that have existed months before the english patch came out.

If you mean how he doesn't exist in the room then death and personality death are the most accepted solutions for that.

[Moogleking]

Shkannon doesn't really make sense, especially when you consider things from the other games.
Game 3 - The adults find Shannon and Kanon dead in different rooms. Are you telling me Shannon faked dead in one room, they found her, then somehow gets into the other room (that is locked) before the adults get there?
Game 2 - The whole scene with Kanon coming back and killing 2 people just makes absolutely no sense if Shannon=Kanon. If they are separate people, it is quite possible to come up with a good explanation as to what is going on. If they are the same person, it just doesn't make any sense.
Game 1 - Kanon looks at Shannon's corpse and burns it into his eyes. There are no body double tricks, so there has to be a real body there, and it must be the real person. Almost every character is here except for Maria, Kumasawa, and Kinzo. Whose corpse is that if Shannon and Kanon are the same person?

Back to the riddle of game 6, Erika truthfully states she is the 18th human. However, Battler then says the truth that there are 17 people.

Clearly one of these refers to the actual real number of people on the island, and the other one refers to some other count of people on the island. However, if Kanon and Shannon share a body, there are really only 16 people on the island. If there are 16 real people on the island, then 1 of those 2 numbers (Erika's 18 or Battler's 17) is not true.

If there are 16 real people on the island either:
A) Erika says she is the 18th (fake) human, and Battler says there are 16 (real) people.
B) Erika says she is the 17th (real) human, and Battler says there are 18 (fake) people.

Since neither A nor B were said, this means that Erika DOES NOT EXIST. The truth is:
C) Erika says she is the 18th (fake) human, and Battler says there are 17 (real) people, regardless of whether Erika joins or not.

The only other option is that NEITHER number refers to the actual number of real people on the island, which seems to be pretty pointless to argue about.

[Marion]

However, Battler then says the truth that there are 17 people.

17 people INCLUDING Erika. So without Erika it's 16.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Marion

17 people INCLUDING Erika. So without Erika it's 16.

But then Erika wouldn't have been denied.

[Moogleking]

Battler says "Even if you join us, there are 17 people."
Definition of "Even if" - irrespecitve of / irregardless.
So he essentially says "Whether you join us or not, there are 17 people."

[Jan-Poo]

You are making an analysis that doesn't really work with the original japanese. The sentence is ambiguous period.

[Moogleking]

Then that phrasing should not have been used.

Regardless, one of those numbers is the number of real people, obviously Battler's since it is smaller. Given the evidence from the other games, Shannon and Kanon are separate people, so we already have 17 real people.

This means Erika doesn't exist, and explains why she is killed by this final red.

[Thunder Book]

My problem with Erika not existing is that it seems kind of... well... pointless. I don't really see what it would add to the narrative as a whole.

The thing is though is that I don't like Shkanon either.

[Judoh]

Regardless of what all of us think. There are lots of arguments on both sides that are effective. We've been discussing this for months so none of you are really saying anything that's new or hasn't been looked at.

Shkanon isn't my favorite theory either.

[Moogleking]

The problem is that everyone keeps coming back to these points instead of trying to solve the various mysteries. Erika is irrelevant to the overall mystery, the author pretty much explicitly tells us that.

I think he threw her in narrative-wise to give the reader a bigger push to solve the mystery. She shows that you can definitely reason in various ways about the events in the game.

The thing about this game is that you have to make certain assumptions and then go see how it all plays out in the various games. But everybody is still arguing about the assumptions.

I tried assuming that Shannon and Kanon were the same person, but it didn't make sense at all in the first 3 games.

If you assume that Shannon and Kanon are working together at the start of each game, but their relationship breaks up at some point for whatever reason, it seems to make more sense.

[UsagiTenpura]

Saying this again to emptiness...

The cousin's room was never said to have everyone in it at the point it became a closed room. Only the next room over has a red about who was it in when it became a closed room. We only know that at one point "everyone else" was in the cousin's room.
And that includes Erika. Yet she left.

So in short neither room was ever a closed room.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Saying this again to emptiness...

The cousin's room was never said to have everyone in it at the point it became a closed room. Only the next room over has a red about who was it in when it became a closed room. We only know that at one point "everyone else" was in the cousin's room.
And that includes Erika. Yet she left.

So in short neither room was ever a closed room.

What are you talking about?
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
# [By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.

[Judoh]

Basically this from a theory awhile back

Originally Posted by Judoh

And My point is that someone let Kanon out of the room before or at the same time she left the next room over. Meaning he left via the door or the window [whatever was available at the time] before it was completely sealed and thus wasn't in there. Nothing contradicts.

There is a window of time open between those reds for Kanon to slip out before the room is sealed. Not everybody agrees with that, but it's one theory that's been put out there and the red doesn't really deny it.