(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Decel]

Rewatching the scenes of the episode, and there's tidbits of information dispersed here and there.

Aura asks Frieren to display a tenth of her mana. When she first meets the party, Heiter comments that she's one fifth of his mana. So if she kept the ratio, then at that time Frieren had double Heiter's mana capacity.

So in effect Heiter was a seriously decked-out beast himself Imo. Definitely worthy of the Hero's party. We already have a good grasp of Eisen's skill via Stark. Makes me wonder about Himmel's abilities.

Finally, I think that even if Aura played smart and threw her army at Frieren, the elf would still have won. She said she'd have been in trouble, but there's no indication that she would have lost. And as some have mentioned before, Frieren is a long-term planner, so I doubt that she would have faced Aura all the way to betting her soul unless she was sure she'd win no matter the events leading up to the weighting.

Also in the super-rapid flashbacks right after Frieren meets the party, there's a screenshot about their first encounter against Aura.

[AC-Phoenix]

Considering how overpowered they portray mages, I wonder why they even needed the rest of the old-party to begin with to beat the Demon Lord.
And no, it's not just Frieren, it's Fern too.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Considering how overpowered they portray mages, I wonder why they even needed the rest of the old-party to begin with to beat the Demon Lord.
And no, it's not just Frieren, it's Fern too.

That's because the mages you've seen are a Legendary Mage, trained by a Legendary Mage, and her apprentice, who face off against Demons who spend their entire lives learning magic.

Meanwhile, Stark managed to kill a dragon on his own and walked off however many blows that demon gave him and was trained by the Warrior who helped kill the Demon King.

As far as measuring sticks go, they're probably not the ones to measure the average Mage.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Decel

Finally, I think that even if Aura played smart and threw her army at Frieren, the elf would still have won. She said she'd have been in trouble, but there's no indication that she would have lost. And as some have mentioned before, Frieren is a long-term planner, so I doubt that she would have faced Aura all the way to betting her soul unless she was sure she'd win no matter the events leading up to the weighting.

Aura still has her scales as an absolute trump card.

If Aura had let her army wear out Frieren's mana then used the scales she could have won. The only reason she didn't do that is because she figured she didn't need to since she believed Frieren's mana was weaker than hers. If that was how the battle had headed then Frieren would likely have just run away.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Considering how overpowered they portray mages, I wonder why they even needed the rest of the old-party to begin with to beat the Demon Lord.
And no, it's not just Frieren, it's Fern too.

Reminder that magic has advanced a ton since the Demon King's defeat. That was the point of showing off the creator of Zoltraak. The Hero Party had to seal him when they faced him before, but now Frieren handed him his ass with basically no effort beyond what was necessary to teach Fern some things.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Fern did not need an opening nor was she looking for one. She was spamming Zoltraak faster than he could put up shields, it was only a matter of time before she would pierce his defenses and win. Lugner was the one desperate to find an opening.

Fern had him beaten in every possible way. Speed, power, accuracy, and most likely mana capacity.

She kept her mana levels low throughout the whole fight. If she was going to pierce Lugner's defenses then she would have raised her power level and just went for it directly. But a direct attack is not the way Flamme taught Frieren how to fight demons.
You don't need to be desperate like Lugner to wait for your opponent to drop their defenses. That's just the smart thing to do.

Originally Posted by Decel

Finally, I think that even if Aura played smart and threw her army at Frieren, the elf would still have won. She said she'd have been in trouble, but there's no indication that she would have lost. And as some have mentioned before, Frieren is a long-term planner, so I doubt that she would have faced Aura all the way to betting her soul unless she was sure she'd win no matter the events leading up to the weighting.

Also in the super-rapid flashbacks right after Frieren meets the party, there's a screenshot about their first encounter against Aura.

It wasn't just about winning, Frieren wanted to put her down for good.

The flashback showed Himmel landing a slash on Aura, and we know from Aura herself that she ran away. If she knew Frieren was stronger than she would've ran away again.

[~Yami~]

that moment when Frieren said that Aura is standing in front of 1000+ years old mage is so badass. It is the most arrogant statement I ever know.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

She kept her mana levels low throughout the whole fight. If she was going to pierce Lugner's defenses then she would have raised her power level and just went for it directly. But a direct attack is not the way Flamme taught Frieren how to fight demons.
You don't need to be desperate like Lugner to wait for your opponent to drop their defenses. That's just the smart thing to do.

Fern talent is in her speed, not in her power.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

She kept her mana levels low throughout the whole fight. If she was going to pierce Lugner's defenses then she would have raised her power level and just went for it directly. But a direct attack is not the way Flamme taught Frieren how to fight demons.
You don't need to be desperate like Lugner to wait for your opponent to drop their defenses. That's just the smart thing to do.

If possible, killing your opponent without giving yourself time to make a fatal mistake sounds like a smarter thing to do.

[Guido]

Taking into account that the Demons are highly arrogant I doubt that Aura saw as real threats warriors whom displayed strong wills to resist the Scales of Obedience when she faced them in the past, however, she conceded that were annoying pests that she must had dealt immediately.

And, she made no distinction at beheading them like the rest of her victims, but after losing to Himmel's party over eighty-years ago, perhaps, she added many of those slain strong-willed warriors to her army to have, at least, some buffed-up assets for their strength in combat, but that's my personal ranting.

Anyways, unfortunately, I did not get to see Frieren releasing her true strength against Aura, but way back to episode seven she's not messing around with her disposition to take down Aura; Fieren's dead serious.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Fern did not need an opening nor was she looking for one. She was spamming Zoltraak faster than he could put up shields, it was only a matter of time before she would pierce his defenses and win. Lugner was the one desperate to find an opening.

Fern had him beaten in every possible way. Speed, power, accuracy, and most likely mana capacity.

Exactly! Lügner was the one internally conflicted to find an opening while both keeping the cool facade and holding up his shield to defend against Fern's relentless onslaught.

Fern recalled that Frieren acknowledged her for being to cast magic even faster than Frieren could possibly do, and the girl played that to her advantage coupled that she concealed her mana back when she previously sniped Lügner by surprise.

As Fern noted, Demons are too arrogant as a species that while they do are aware of long-term or distant threats like, for example, Frieren, nevertheless, they fail to acknowledge the short-term pesky nuisances like, for example, humans that hold back on their mana in order to catch them off guard.

Again we see this example with Stark's fight against Linnie, however, in his case he was holding back his strength due to instinct and that was the fear of dying in battle. Nonetheless, Stark had as well his visit to the lane of memories recalling the beating he got from sparring against his Master Eisen.
But, Eisen ultimately commended him for still having the strength to stand-up again despite all the damage inflicted on the lad and both the pain and fear Stark felt.

Once Stark temporarily held back his fear of dying right after taking a fatal blow from Linnie he caught her off-guard by pressing forward his reckless conviction at landing the killing blow on the demon girl.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If possible, killing your opponent without giving yourself time to make a fatal mistake sounds like a smarter thing to do.

Even if Fern or Frieren have the power to do that, they would need to guarantee the kill and make sure there are no witnesses, or otherwise their cover would be blown and the lifetime they spent hiding their mana would be all for nothing.

Aura, Lugner, and Linie are all demons who have fought or at least seen Frieren and the Hero Party up close in the past and lived to tell the tale.
Considering that Frieren wouldn't let a demon go just like that, it means that those three know how to survive and run away if need be.

If they can run away from Frieren, then Lugner can definitely run away from Fern. The reason why he didn't was because Fern kept her mana low enough that he thought he was stronger. If she ever powered up then he would have noticed.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Guido

As Fern noted, Demons are too arrogant as a species that while they do are aware of long-term or distant threats like, for example, Frieren, nevertheless, they fail to acknowledge the short-term pesky nuisances like, for example, humans that hold back on their mana in order to catch them off guard.

Kind of hard to acknowledge that when there are literarily only two humans doing it in the course of 1000 years.

[Tenzen12]

Usually humans don't have enough mana for it to even be worth hiding and I would also assume there was peaceful times too when it wasn't necessary.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Her mana is irrelevant in this case when the barrier is still active centuries after her death. It's not like she's still powering it now.

Did you even read what I posted? I said that when we add her huge manga with her skills, we can safely conclude she was really strong. This is a logical conclusion and I don't think you can argue that.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Needing some amount of stamina and needing more than Lugner are two different standards.

True, but we shouldn't assume that Fern's mana is weaker than Lugner's just because she's human either. Flamme didn't look older than 30 when she met Frieren but her huge mana was comparable to Aura's, someone who had trained for 500 years. I think that clearly shows that natural talent makes a huge difference. And although we don't know that Fern is as talented as Flamme, we don't know that she isn't either. So we should be open-minded about this, I think.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Also I never said it was all speed. Efficiency and technique matters too, just like it did against Qual.

Efficiency is fine and all, but it's not what defeated Lugner. He was beaten because he miscalculated Fern's mana. If he knew from the start that she wasn't gonna run out of mana any time soon, he would have adopted a different strategy. Something like a hit and run strategy would have worked better on Fern, maybe, though I don't know if Lugner would have been willing to fight that way since he's so prideful.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

This isn't a hill worth dying on either way when it's not meant to be measured to that extent, nor was the scene about power in the first place.

Sure but my point stands. She probably was stronger than those three together. Hiding her mana made things easier. She was able to one-shoot them because they dropped their guard. But she probably could have won either way, just no that easily.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Even Frieren vs Aura wasn't set in stone. Like Frieren herself said, if Aura had stayed back and kept on wearing down Frieren's mana with the soldiers then it would have ended differently.

Yeah, mana isn't everything in a fight. Did I ever say otherwise? I don't think so.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GDB

Reminder that magic has advanced a ton since the Demon King's defeat. That was the point of showing off the creator of Zoltraak. The Hero Party had to seal him when they faced him before, but now Frieren handed him his ass with basically no effort beyond what was necessary to teach Fern some things.

Putting the modified Zoltraak aside, by what has been said, Frieren was already very capable of doing most of the demon lords army in on her own. Yeah she is even more clumsy than Fate's Mash and Charlotte combined, but it still makes you wonder why any party would need a fighter.

You just need to look at how she handled the puppets, to see that there was no need for a melee at all.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

True, but we shouldn't assume that Fern's mana is weaker than Lugner's just because she's human either. Flamme didn't look older than 30 when she met Frieren but her huge mana was comparable to Aura's, someone who had trained for 500 years. I think that clearly shows that natural talent makes a huge difference. And although we don't know that Fern is as talented as Flamme, we don't know that she isn't either. So we should be open-minded about this, I think.

I agree that we should be open-minded.
I was just saying that Fern doesn't need to have more mana than Lugner to win, and that you shouldn't be trying to use the size of their auras as indicative of an objective standard when it's only relative to the person next to them.

Flamme's mana was shown as a comparison to Frieren's and the demons she faced, nothing more. Claiming that it's more than Aura's just because it looks bigger to you is a bit of a stretch, I think.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Efficiency is fine and all, but it's not what defeated Lugner. He was beaten because he miscalculated Fern's mana. If he knew from the start that she wasn't gonna run out of mana any time soon, he would have adopted a different strategy. Something like a hit and run strategy would have worked better on Fern, maybe, though I don't know if Lugner would have been willing to fight that way since he's so prideful.

I'm not disagreeing with that conclusion, but what you're saying is also not a rebuttal either.
The reason why Lugner miscalculated Fern's mana is because she was taught how to control it and keep expenditure to a minimum, just like how she defended against Qual. Efficiency is a part of control.

The fight isn't as flashy in the manga, and you can see how Fern put what she used against Qual into practice here by minimizing her barrier magic's area of effect. Her strikes are precise, nothing too exaggerated, and just enough to hit Lugner.


I initially wasn't going to bring up too many manga comparisons since it looked like anime only watchers have the same interpretations anyway, but if you're thinking that Fern could overpower Lugner by force because of how flashy the animation was, then I really do not think that's the lesson to be learned here.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sure but my point stands. She probably was stronger than those three together. Hiding her mana made things easier. She was able to one-shoot them because they dropped their guard. But she probably could have won either way, just no that easily.

Yeah, mana isn't everything in a fight. Did I ever say otherwise? I don't think so.

Maybe, maybe not.
There's no such thing as a fair 1 on 1 fight amongst mages in this series, and thinking of what-ifs on how they'd measure up in a more direct show of power is not how Frieren and Fern were taught how to fight.
The fact is that Fern was waiting for that opening as much as Lugner wanted to make one.

The only difference is that's baked into her fighting style while Lugner was improvising.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

you shouldn't be trying to use the size of their auras as indicative of an objective standard when it's only relative to the person next to them.

If you want to think it's only valid relative to the person next to them, that's your choice, but there's no reason I should agree to that.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Flamme's mana was shown as a comparison to Frieren's and the demons she faced, nothing more. Claiming that it's more than Aura's just because it looks bigger to you is a bit of a stretch, I think.

You're free to think what you will, but I don't think it's a stretch at all.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I'm not disagreeing with that conclusion, but what you're saying is also not a rebuttal either.

The reason why Lugner miscalculated Fern's mana is because she was taught how to control it and keep expenditure to a minimum, just like how she defended against Qual. Efficiency is a part of control.

She sure is efficient, but that's not the reason Lugner miscalculated. Using mana efficiently and literally suppressing your mana to deceive your opponent are two different things. Fern was doing both, but it was the later what fooled Lugner. We know because when he called Fern unfair she did not deny it. So it's not a matter of efficiency. It's a matter of deliberate deception.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I initially wasn't going to bring up too many manga comparisons since it looked like anime only watchers have the same interpretations anyway, but if you're thinking that Fern could overpower Lugner by force because of how flashy the animation was, then I really do not think that's the lesson to be learned here.

If we're talking about lesson learned (which is not what we were talking about but whatever) then it's clear the lesson is that Fern used deception to win. By hiding her mana she manipulated Lugner into a type of fighting that give her the advantage. He fought head on, which was disadvantageous to him since she could dish out attacks faster than he could put up barriers and she wasn't gonna run out of mana any time soon. It's the same lesson from the Frieren vs Aura fight. Aura had better chance using her army to fight, but she chose to use her risky spell because she thought she had more mana than Frieren. She was deliberately deceived by Frieren just like Fern deceived Lugner. That's the lesson.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The fact is that Fern was waiting for that opening as much as Lugner wanted to make one.

I disagree with that. Other people already explained why she wasn't really waiting for an opening. She was just gonna keep dishing out attacks until she could overwhelm his defense. And Lugner knew that this was the logical outcome which is why he got desperate and started calling out to Linie.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I disagree with that. Other people already explained why she wasn't really waiting for an opening. She was just gonna keep dishing out attacks until she could overwhelm his defense. And Lugner knew that this was the logical outcome which is why he got desperate and started calling out to Linie.

I agree what Lugner said is a logical conclusion, but you're also taking it out of context.

His goal is is to kill Fern. To do that, he decided to stall and focus on defense. That method didn't work because she could hit him anyway. He still thought he had a chance to kill her, so he ordered Linie to help to accomplish that.

From Fern's perspective, I think we can agree her goal is to kill Lugner, yes?
I don't think "piercing his defenses" is enough for that. Lugner regenerated from a lost abdomen and arm; he can do it again. He also ran away from Frieren in the past somehow, so he's clearly capable of backing out if he can see the writing on the wall.
Suppose that Lugner didn't get distracted, then his injuries would eventually reach a point where even he can tell his life is in danger.

Fern wants a decisive blow, and best way to kill him and make sure he doesn't run, is to get him to drop his guard.

An opening is exactly what Fern wants.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Putting the modified Zoltraak aside, by what has been said, Frieren was already very capable of doing most of the demon lords army in on her own. Yeah she is even more clumsy than Fate's Mash and Charlotte combined, but it still makes you wonder why any party would need a fighter.

You just need to look at how she handled the puppets, to see that there was no need for a melee at all.

Well if we go down the road of any party the answer is obvious. 95% of parties aren't going to have someone with absolutely broken levels of mana like Frieren. And when the mage runs out of gas just about anything with a sharp implement can kill them. And while Frieren could have been saying nonsense the possibility that she could be overwhelmed through pure numbers seems entirely realistic. Creating space is perfectly valid role for a front line fighter.

Plus the dragon incident proved the point again. Some things aren't going to be so easily dispatched and are going to be bad matchups. There's always value in having a good mix of skillsets.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well if we go down the road of any party the answer is obvious. 95% of parties aren't going to have someone with absolutely broken levels of mana like Frieren. And when the mage runs out of gas just about anything with a sharp implement can kill them. And while Frieren could have been saying nonsense the possibility that she could be overwhelmed through pure numbers seems entirely realistic. Creating space is perfectly valid role for a front line fighter.

Plus the dragon incident proved the point again. Some things aren't going to be so easily dispatched and are going to be bad matchups. There's always value in having a good mix of skillsets.

Yep. As an avid Pathfinder / D&D GM and player for 25 years by now, I can absolutely corroborate that casters, especially squishy wizards, want their beefy beatsticks in front of them as meatshields.