Touma's Power: What can he block ?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by HyperCube

And my theory about the fact that Espers cannot use Magic and vice versa,it's because Magic is used through pacts with other extraordinary beings,so they don't permit the use of other powers than theirs because it's considered as treachery and the user will be punished by the destruction of his body;unless he found a way to modify the process,which is only few can do.

This I disagree, then why Catholics can use Greek magic? Why Kaori a Christian, can use Buhddist magic? You know, Christianity does not acklnowedge other gods but their own. If what you say its true, Kaori would have long faced divine retribution.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I don't think it's been said that espers can't use magic, but that that they don't. Mainly because significant use kills them, though there can be exceptions.

So magic is something anyone can use, provided they can accept the consequences, but espers are limited to certain people (either natural-born, or take the new methods for triggering the growth of powers).

...good point. So "talent" or the source of power isn't really the problem here. But the consequence. By this train of thought, the real problem lies in the alien world that the power is evoked from.
AIM's alien world is specifcly dersigned by Alister to repulse the alien world of magic. Espers due to they naturally emits AIM, can't be disconnected from the alien world of AIM, so if they try to use magic, it is like trying to squash something you naturally rejects into yourself and results in yourself exploding into blood.
This would also explain how Eiwas exists, he could be from an alien world that is not repulsed by AIM and thus can manifest through it.

[HyperCube]

This I disagree, then why Catholics can use Greek magic? Why Kaori a Christian, can use Buhddist magic? You know, Christianity does not acklnowedge other gods but their own. If what you say its true, Kaori would have long faced divine retribution.

Kaori explained in the Index series that she is part of a unique form of christianity
so,it's an exception.
And a magic is not related to the religion,since a christian can use any kind of magic(Heretics use magics from other religions...),but he can only use one kind of magic because he made a contract with the being from which he borrowed that power.

I don't think it's been said that espers can't use magic, but that that they don't. Mainly because significant use kills them, though there can be exceptions.

The fact it kills them,mean that they can't no? (regardless of exceptions of course..)

And is it explained in the story why it kills them?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Late, but I wanna give my opinion...

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

All we really know about IB is that it is not a pure esper power. Touma can't, has never, been able to control it or influence it. All other pyschic powers require deliberate effort to set, but for Touma his always works, even when his memory wipes all knowledge of it.

Hmm, rather than thinking of Imagine Breaker as a full power, perhaps it's just An Involuntary Movement all along? That would explain how he could still dispell supernatural effects without even needing to think about it...

Originally Posted by HyperCube

And is it explained in the story why it kills them?

There doesn't seem to be a straight forward cause, but from what we can see- The body just simply breaks down.

My opinion is that this might be a failsafe program within all magic spells that magicians have implemented long ago to prevent people with 'natural powers' from using magic. As I've recalled somewhere from the manga, the brain of an esper is 'hardwired' differently from a normal human.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by shmaster

...good point. So "talent" or the source of power isn't really the problem here. But the consequence. By this train of thought, the real problem lies in the alien world that the power is evoked from.
AIM's alien world is specifcly dersigned by Alister to repulse the alien world of magic. Espers due to they naturally emits AIM, can't be disconnected from the alien world of AIM, so if they try to use magic, it is like trying to squash something you naturally rejects into yourself and results in yourself exploding into blood.
This would also explain how Eiwas exists, he could be from an alien world that is not repulsed by AIM and thus can manifest through it.

What makes it alien? Why can't it be natural to Index Earth? There are any number of forces always acting in Earth that weren't discovered or realized until much, much later in human history. Gravity, electricity, even the knowledge that the world is flat.

Is the idea that magic/god alien something you're proposing, or is it in the light novels?

Originally Posted by HyperCube

The fact it kills them,mean that they can't no? (regardless of exceptions of course..)

And is it explained in the story why it kills them?

Not at all. 'Can't' implies impossibility. To say that someone 'can't' use magic is saying that no matter how they try, whatever motions they go through, it wouldn't work.

With espers, we know they can. While the consequences can make them unable to do it more than once, they can do it in general. If they were willing to make it a sacrficie of themselves, they would have little problem doing so.

It's the same way someone could drive into a tree, or jump on a grenade. Fatal, yes, but possible.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Hmm, rather than thinking of Imagine Breaker as a full power, perhaps it's just An Involuntary Movement all along? That would explain how he could still dispell supernatural effects without even needing to think about it...

Understanding it's an involuntary movement is pretty important, though exactly what it means is uncertain as of yet. What it does mean, however, is that it isn't an esper power under the current definition: esper powers, by their nature, are voluntary, even if they can be trained to be instinctive.

There doesn't seem to be a straight forward cause, but from what we can see- The body just simply breaks down.

Pretty much. They didn't bother with the 'why's in the series, though I'm disinclined to believe it's magical failsafes built into every single magic spell ever. Then the solution would simply be make spells without the failsafe.

It's really a story-device to keep espers and magic separate.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Understanding it's an involuntary movement is pretty important, though exactly what it means is uncertain as of yet. What it does mean, however, is that it isn't an esper power under the current definition: esper powers, by their nature, are voluntary, even if they can be trained to be instinctive.

Even so, AIM are still a part of an Esper's power, just one that isn't controlled.

Which would why Touma's power doesn't seem like an Esper's power, but it's just his AIM?

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Pretty much. They didn't bother with the 'why's in the series, though I'm disinclined to believe it's magical failsafes built into every single magic spell ever. Then the solution would simply be make spells without the failsafe.

Unless of course the core of all spells require that bit of 'programming', but that's just my theory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Unless of course the core of all spells require that bit of 'programming', but that's just my theory.

There would be no reason to. One of the fundamental aspects of engineering and design is simplicity, and creating failsafes isn't.

While the idea that magical spells could be designed to have failsafes to prevent espers from using them, that doesn't disqualify espers from using magic, just those spells with the constructed failsafe. If a spell without a aftificial failsafe were created, and logically the earliest spells would all lack those failsafes (to make failsafe and security systems requires far higher logic and 'programming' than the earliest tasks one would learn in the process leading to their creation), then espers and those with powers could simply use the earliest spells and branch from there. There would be entire schools of magic people like espers would use, designed without (or copied with the exclusion of) failsafes.

Not only is there no support for such, but it would directly contrast the story's message of the barriers between magic and 'science' powers.


In To Aru, unless any indication otherwise comes up, the harm from magic use by espers is a result of a clash of powers, not anything unique in the magic. What causes harm is the use of magic itself, not a component part of the magic that was added at some point in time to every single spell, big and small, major or minor, immaginable.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

What makes it alien? Why can't it be natural to Index Earth? There are any number of forces always acting in Earth that weren't discovered or realized until much, much later in human history. Gravity, electricity, even the knowledge that the world is flat.

They are alien in the same way why people's brain got fried when they look at an Original Grimore. It is un-diluted alien laws which human brain can't possibelly compute, even adepted mages would die if they look at it unprepared. They are alien is the fundemental reason why magic is kept away from common populace, alien laws would contaminate you and turn your brain into meat sauce.

There are avrious instance explaining this in the novel.

Understanding it's an involuntary movement is pretty important, though exactly what it means is uncertain as of yet. What it does mean, however, is that it isn't an esper power under the current definition: esper powers, by their nature, are voluntary, even if they can be trained to be instinctive.

.....no
The most fundemental definition of esper is that you release AIM. Voluntary use does not matter, whether you have AIM or not is the only thing counts. By having AIM meaning you have a Personal Reality. AIM is this energy field released by personal reality unconsciously, and by jamming or manipulating the flaw of AIM, one can even take over another's esper power.

Also, Kazakiri doubts Imagine Breaker is an esper power at all, because if Imagine Breaker release any AIM, she don't think she can exist at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by shmaster

They are alien in the same way why people's brain got fried when they look at an Original Grimore. It is un-diluted alien laws which human brain can't possibelly compute, even adepted mages would die if they look at it unprepared. They are alien is the fundemental reason why magic is kept away from common populace, alien laws would contaminate you and turn your brain into meat sauce.

There are avrious instance explaining this in the novel.

That it's alien, or that you can't handle it without extreme care? Because they are not mutually inclusive. Technical limitations always exist for our ability to understand the exact workings various things of science, things that will certainly kill you if you aren't prepared. Quantum physics and its ties to some rather dangerous chemical concoctions would be one example.

Alien, in the context you seem to be coming from, means 'not from Earth', but I'm trying to see where this is stated.

.....no
The most fundemental definition of esper is that you release AIM. Voluntary use does not matter, whether you have AIM or not is the only thing counts. By having AIM meaning you have a Personal Reality. AIM is this energy field released by personal reality unconsciously, and by jamming or manipulating the flaw of AIM, one can even take over another's esper power.

You aren't making a contradiction, merely exposition as to how esper powers work in the techno-babble.

Nothing in this invalidates what I said: that usage of esper powers requires deliberate (or instinctual) effort on the part of their user. That is what is meant by voluntary: people with powers (those with AIM) voluntarily choose to use their powers (or not).

At no point was I suggesting those without powers could choose to use esper abilities.


If you're trying to make an argument that esper powers can be made involuntary by extreme outside interference (taking control over another's AIM field), it's not only past the point of being an exception that proves the rule (because you're creating extreme circumstances of outside interference), but still requires deliberate effort by someone else, which would validate the original point that esper use requires someone's deliberate intent to use the power.

Also, Kazakiri doubts Imagine Breaker is an esper power at all, because if Imagine Breaker release any AIM, she don't think she can exist at all.

Er, yes, that would be something I've been saying, that Imagine Breaker isn't an esper power... so you're agreeing with me.

[tsunade666]

doesn't kazakiri pertaining their when he touch her? that she would immediately disappear? is their an event when he said that? or is it also on the part when she's talking with index in the hospital its just that I didn't understand it. And is IB can be considered esper. I'm not sure with this but I heard in the anime that magic can't even explain it. ( not sure about the right words )

[Dean_the_Young]

Magic can't explain it, but neither can espers. Touma is a level 0 because it can't even be measured, so on the esper scale he's on the same level as someone without powers. Even a level 1 esper can bend a spoon.

[LastResolve]

touma is a level 0 for the reason his power cant be measured and cuz he also cant control his own power

[shmaster]

Magic are alien as in they do not belong to this world. The fundemental structure of magic is the first you channel to a higher force in a different realm, the obtain the law of that realm and then input it into our world.

Reading Grmiore is dangerous because human brain lack the ability to "understand". Rather, you brain fries up because it try to recept something it wasn't designed to contain. It doesn't even take "reading" or "underdsanding" for a Original Grimore to hurt you. Etzali accidently had a few letters from the Original Grimore slip by his eye in no more than a second, and his brain alreayd took a heavy blow. The words just slipped by, he didn't even recognize what the Grimore is writing, and the blow is already up to his head.

Plus, how can magic and esper power "from earth" if they originated from different "worlds"? And the the novel has stated them as "unatural" or "alien".

There is also the question if Imagine Breaker is the bottom line of deciding what is natural to this world and what is not, like what Aister has interpreted. Then why Telsma the energy of magic gets canceled by Imagien Breaker but not Ryumaku? despit eboth being the power that circulate the Earth?

Nothing in this invalidates what I said: that usage of esper powers requires deliberate (or instinctual) effort on the part of their user. That is what is meant by voluntary: people with powers (those with AIM) voluntarily choose to use their powers (or not).

The point I am trying to argue against is your statement: "esper powers, by their nature, are voluntary, even if they can be trained to be instinctive." Since by that you mean the power can be either turned on and off, you mean they have a choice. But that is untrue, once you start releasing AIM, ther eis no end to it unless your Personal Reality is crushed. And as long as you generate AIM, you power is turned on. There is no "deliberateness" in esper power, but rather, you got "stuck" in thats status. Or else, Last Order already can free herslef and the Sisters from the Misaka Network consider she can manipulate the AIM Field as if a computer programe.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Magic are alien as in they do not belong to this world. The fundemental structure of magic is the first you channel to a higher force in a different realm, the obtain the law of that realm and then input it into our world.

I'm still waiting for a citation of some sort in which magic is said to come from another world. It certainly was never in the Index anime.

The point I am trying to argue against is your statement: "esper powers, by their nature, are voluntary, even if they can be trained to be instinctive." Since by that you mean the power can be either turned on and off, you mean they have a choice. But that is untrue, once you start releasing AIM, ther eis no end to it unless your Personal Reality is crushed. And as long as you generate AIM, you power is turned on. There is no "deliberateness" in esper power, but rather, you got "stuck" in thats status. Or else, Last Order already can free herslef and the Sisters from the Misaka Network consider she can manipulate the AIM Field as if a computer programe.

No, that's not what I mean by that. Let's try it a thrid time:

Using their powers is voluntary: they choose when to use them, how to use them, but don't have their powers going on and off without their say barring extreme outside interference. Kuroko, for example, only teleports when she desires: she does not teleport otherwise, accidentally, or in a way she does not intend to.

Powers are not turned on all the time: Misaka is not constantly casting lightning, Accelerator's powers were only set to a default state but nothing else occured, and so on. The use of powers is not constant, and is voluntary on part of the wielder.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by shmaster

There is also the question if Imagine Breaker is the bottom line of deciding what is natural to this world and what is not, like what Aister has interpreted. Then why Telsma the energy of magic gets canceled by Imagien Breaker but not Ryumaku? despit eboth being the power that circulate the Earth?

Maybe because the way they are used is unatural?? I don't know can you tell more about Ryumaki, or another way to be wrote?

[tsunade666]

Ryumaku? what's a ryumaku/ ryumaki? is it some kind of dragon or something?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I'm still waiting for a citation of some sort in which magic is said to come from another world. It certainly was never in the Index anime.

The best example would be volume 13, where the world of AIM and world of AIM physically collide.

Pg.318 Vent describes the world of magic has been pressed against by Fuze=Kazakiri (who represents the world of AIM)

"アンタら科学サイドが, 仕掛けたコトでしょう? あの「天使」の出現に合わせ, 「界」全体へ強制的に術的圧迫を加える. いわば, 魔力循環不全を引き起こすってトコか. アレイスターも, いやらしい手を考える....."

The the comment on the world of AIM on Pg.230.

虚数学区・五行機関. 学園都市を中心に集束し, さらにはせか中にばら撒かれた妹達によって拡散されたAIM拡散力場を統御することによって生 みされる, 人工の界

No, that's not what I mean by that. Let's try it a thrid time:

Using their powers is voluntary: they choose when to use them, how to use them, but don't have their powers going on and off without their say barring extreme outside interference. Kuroko, for example, only teleports when she desires: she does not teleport otherwise, accidentally, or in a way she does not intend to.

Powers are not turned on all the time: Misaka is not constantly casting lightning, Accelerator's powers were only set to a default state but nothing else occured, and so on. The use of powers is not constant, and is voluntary on part of the wielder.

Again, that still not explain why Last Order can't voluntarily disconnect sisters from Misaka Network (which is mantained because the Sisters are consatntly releasing electrical signals), nor does that expalin why Deep Blood can't be turned off.
To me, it is rather a matter how much you can make your powerful less visable or as ineffective as possible, but you can never stop them.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Ryumaku? what's a ryumaku/ ryumaki? is it some kind of dragon or something?

It is the energy of Earth the circulates in the planet. If you know what Fusui is, you probably have an idea. It is like the blood of planet, it current affect the natural phenomenon of the area it pass by and affect people's fortune. And if Ryumaku direc up, the land will die.
And as far as the current Imagine Killer goes, it does not cancel this.
But Telsma, also know as "Godbless" or "Power of the World", that circulates in the planet like Ryumaku, does got cancel. It is the energy that forms the Anegls and give magci power. And the shrines and temples across the world serve as the devices to change Telsma into Ley.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by shmaster

The best example would be volume 13, where the world of AIM and world of AIM physically collide.

Pg.318 Vent describes the world of magic has been pressed against by Fuze=Kazakiri (who represents the world of AIM)

"アンタら科学サイドが, 仕掛けたコトでしょう? あの「天使」の出現に合わせ, 「界」全体へ強制的に術的圧迫を加える. いわば, 魔力循環不全を引き起こすってトコか. アレイスターも, いやらしい手を考える....."

The the comment on the world of AIM on Pg.230.

虚数学区・五行機関. 学園都市を中心に集束し, さらにはせか中にばら撒かれた妹達によって拡散されたAIM拡散力場を統御することによって生 みされる, 人工の界

Charming, except I can't read Japanese.

Again, that still not explain why Last Order can't voluntarily disconnect sisters from Misaka Network (which is mantained because the Sisters are consatntly releasing electrical signals),

You answered yourself: because the Sisters are deliberately linking to the network and keeping it up.

nor does that expalin why Deep Blood can't be turned off.

Quite likely because it isn't an esper power. Certainly nothing in the anime has implied that it was. No one knows what Vampires classify as, magical or science, and consequently the same confusion applies for the antithesis.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by shmaster

It is the energy of Earth the circulates in the planet. If you know what Fusui is, you probably have an idea. It is like the blood of planet, it current affect the natural phenomenon of the area it pass by and affect people's fortune. And if Ryumaku direc up, the land will die.
And as far as the current Imagine Killer goes, it does not cancel this.
But Telsma, also known as "Godbless" or "Power of the World", that circulates in the planet like Ryumaku, does got cancel. It is the energy that forms the Anegls and give magci power. And the shrines and temples across the world serve as the devices to change Telsma into Ley.

Yeah, but far I know the Ryumaku is not being manipulated by human hands like the Telesma, maybe Imagine Killer is using the Ryoumaki to work since its the nature of Earth and only destroys/dispells the "illusions" returning them to a natural state. BTW when was(or how many times) mentioned the Ryumaki

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Charming, except I can't read Japanese.

That's the point. I can, but you can't. So you wouldn't know whether I would translate the lines religiously to its content if I type it out in English. It is much more fair that I type out the original lines and you can look up the meaning yourself. And I am sure the other Japanese speakers here are more impartial interpretors than myself who is in debate with you right now.

You answered yourself: because the Sisters are deliberately linking to the network and keeping it up.

If they do, they could have disconnected themselves from the network if they feel like it right? If so, allow me to ask you these: Why, when Last order got hacked by ANGEL Virus, the sisters didn't disconnect? Are you saying they were still deliberatingly upheld the Misaka Network despite they knew their brain was getting taken over by Alister's evil codes? (twice to boot, vo.13 & vo.19) Also, why would they still deliberately upheld the Network despite they know the Network is hidnering their growth for an independant personality? Why, in volume 5, when Last ortder's brain got hijacked to turn sisters into killing machines, they didn't simply tell the Sisters to log off?

Quite likely because it isn't an esper power. Certainly nothing in the anime has implied that it was. No one knows what Vampires classify as, magical or science, and consequently the same confusion applies for the antithesis.

Please refer to volume 2 and SS2 of the novel.
Deep Blood has been stated as an Ore type of Esper power.

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Yeah, but far I know the Ryumaku is not being manipulated by human hands like the Telesma, maybe Imagine Killer is using the Ryoumaki to work since its the nature of Earth and only destroys/dispells the "illusions" returning them to a natural state. BTW when was(or how many times) mentioned the Ryumaki

Ryumaku only got mentioned a few time by Tsuchimikato. I do not remeber exactly which volume. Somehwere between volume 3-8 or is it 14?

[tsunade666]

Use a translating Software so its not perfect.

アンタら科学サイドが, 仕掛けたコトでしょう? あの「天使」の出現に合わせ, 「界」全体へ強制的に術的圧迫を加える. いわば, 魔力循環不全を引き起こすってトコか. アレイスターも, いやらしい手を考える....."

Spoiler:

Will ..".. Koto ..[anta].. science side who began?I add a compulsory and art pressure to "Field" the whole according to the appearance of that "Angel". So to speak, is it ..[] that causes the magic imperfect circulation ?..array star.. "..my considering its disagreeable hand...

the thing that I understand is that the artificial angel suppress the magic circulation.

虚数学区・五行機関. 学園都市を中心に集束し, さらにはせか中にばら撒かれた妹達によって拡散されたAIM拡散力場を統御することによって生 みされる, 人工の界

Spoiler:

Imaginary number school district and the 5th line organization. It focuses around Gakuentoshi. In addition, artificial boundary give birth to by supervising AIM diffusion power place where younger sisters on whom rose was scattered during winning fame diffuse

I don't understand much this one....

So deep blood is like an esper ability? then the vampires are from magic side.