Future Episode Synopses/Series Predictions/General Speculation

[melange]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Spoiler:

but... wouldn't that mean in the process of finding gnosis, Haruhi's dragging alongside the whole lot (extending to anyone in close contact to SOS) and allowing them to reach emancipation (well... under the moniker "overloading the world with fun")
Then there's Ryoko to consider. Ryoko's action with trying to kill Kyon starts to resemble the acts of self-degration that early Gnostics undertook... justified by saying that the bodily Hylic's worth nothing and are only mere distractions to perfection.
As for Yuki and her true nature... would she not be more in line as the 'savior' emination? In Gnosticism I recall that things come in pairs. 1 masculine, 1 feminine. Who is who's 'pair' in this case?

This is starting to look like what Itsuki might've said somehow...

Spoiler:

The whole 'information-based thought entities' does make you think of the Aeonic emanations. Unfortunately thats where the analogies break down. The Aeonic emanations would have no need of relying on Sophia/Haruhi to achieve further evolution. Yuki can't really be placed as the 'savior' emanation because like you said, Gnostic emanations come in masculine and feminine pairs. Yuki (feminine) can't be Sophia/Haruhi(feminine)'s complementary emanation. The 'savior' emanation is supposed to be masculine. As for 'pairing' up the characters.. I think thats even harder to make A Gnostic reference does seem possible in SHnY but a full blown analogy doesn't seem possible to me.

Its actually easier to draw the gnostic-Sophia analogies with Serial Experiments Lain: Lain ->Sophia, Eiri Masami -> Demiurge (which is my favourite pet theory) but thats a whole different anime

[panzerfan]

Spoiler:

That of course leaves the question of Haruhi's 'architype' unanswered. For the Japanese demigod/ flawed gods or ... demons exist in literary concept (many of them with 'bad ending'), not that Haruhi's taking out of that cookie cutter.

[Sushi-Y]

To reply to a couple of posts in the episode 3 thread. Since it's more about future episode predictions, I'll put the reply here.
===============

Originally Posted by melange

That's an interesting observation about 'episode 7'. Vol 1 definitely needs a lot more screen time to finish it off. Compressing it doesn't look like it would work as those events are really important. So they may actually be doing what I had asked earlier in a different thread - rearranging events to interperse between the major character intros/explanations.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

From the next episode preview, it appears there is going to be no attempts made to bridge the gap between episode 1 (2) and episode 7 (3).
Guess that makes sense in a way... We are going to be watching episodes in random order, by the looks of it. Very Haruhi.

Here's an examination, from a novel reader's point of view:

- The anime appears that it will cover up to Shoushitsu (消失, volume 4) (one proof is the Winter hot-pot shot in the ED sequence). Going any further is unlikely, given that we only have 14 (well, 13) episodes.

- Out of the the first 4 volumes (Yuutsu, Tameiki, Taikutsu, Shoushitsu), the only volume that's made up of a series of short, one-shot stories is Taikutsu (volume 3). Tameiki (volume 2), on the other hand, was already covered by Episode00 (well, Tameiki really only covered the filming process, the actual Episode00 movie was played out as a short-story chapter in Douyou (動揺, volume 6).

In other words, even though the anime is going to cover the first 4 volumes, the "main story" will be most likely be extracted from volume 1 (Yuutsu) and 4 (Shoushitsu). And it makes perfect sense to anyone who has read the novels because we know that these two volumes are where things actually get serious, compared to the "side-story-ish" feel of 2 and 3.

- We know that volume 2 probably won't be touched on anymore, so the remaining episodes will probably be using contents from volume 1, 3, and 4.

- By the end of episode 3, we know that Kyoani is going to start splitting volume 1 up and mixing in Taikutsu (volume 3) episodes. Which makes sense in two levels:

1. In volume 1, Yuki's "introduction" is immediately followed by Mikuru's, then Koizumi's, and then the Asakura event. If the anime showed all of these events one right after another, it's possible that the sudden flood of information might turn off some first-time watchers, and since volume 1's mood remains pretty serious after that until the very end, showing Yuutsu as one whole "package" probably wouldn't work.

2. Taikutsu (volume 3) is made up of 4 short-stories: Suzumiya Haruhi no Taikutsu, Sasa no Ha Rhapsody, Mysterious Sign, Kotou Shoukougun (Suzumiya Haruhi's Boredom, Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, Mysterious Sign, Lone Island Syndrome). They're independent from each other, and can be easily broken up into seperate episodes. Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is actually quite an important chapter plot-wise too.

- So, the conclusion is: the anime will probably continue with Yuutsu's story, with episodes from Taikutsu thown in there every now and then. Shoushitsu, on the other hand, can't come in until the later episodes after most (...if not ALL, including Haruhi and Kyon's ____ scene, if they chose not to use it as an ending) of Yuutsu has been shown.

So, as a concrete example, it might be something like:
Episode 1: Episode00
Episode 2~10: 5~6 Yuutsu episodes + 3~4 Taikutsu episodes
Episode 11~14: 2~4 Shoushitsu episode + maybe 1~2 Yuutsu episode? (if they choose Yuutsu's end as the ending)

[Sushi-Y]

Another reply about future episode discussion, sorry for the double post. ^^;
===========================

Originally Posted by disorderman

Maybe like this:
1話　朝比奈ミクルの冒険
2話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅰ
3話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅱ
4話　涼宮ハルヒの退屈
5話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅲ
6話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅳ
7話　笹の葉ラプソディ
8話　涼宮ハルヒの溜息Ⅰ
9話　涼宮ハルヒの溜息Ⅱ
10話　射手座の日
11話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅰ
12話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅱ
13話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅲ
14話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅳ

That looks perfectly plausible too, 笹の葉ラプソディ is absolutely crucial to the story so it must be there. I think the first 7 episodes will probably play out just like the way you listed. 2 溜息 episodes and 射手座の日 would serve as a good bridge (timeline wise) between volume 1 (憂鬱) and volume 4 (消失), although there could be other combinations. As for 4 消失 episodes to round out the pack, I agree with that too. The anime will most likely end with the 消失 ending, it's a lot more "neutral" compared to 憂鬱's ending.
(But that means Yuki gets to take center stage during the final episodes then. I don't mind though, that "alternate" Yuki moe'd me to death ^^; )

I'm personally looking forward to seeing:

Spoiler:

the "alternate" Yuki:

and
Kouyouen Gakuin Haruhi:

[melange]

In an attempt to bring disparate discussions together in a more suitable thread, I will reproduce the more "Speculation"-ish posts from episode 3 here. Apologies in advance if I had misquoted/etc anyone's words.

Posts on Haruhi's nature:

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Haruhi is a modern interpretation of a classical Greek hero(ine) if we think about it. Luckily the take's not Shakesphereian since her greatest strength would be the perfect downfall. After thinking of Haruhi outside of anime context, I find her to be most befitting of the epic heroes.

Much like the flawed deities, Haruhi's personality is not taken out from straight cookie cutter. Her obsession and that undying thirst for change exceeds all else and it manifests itself in the display of her everyday antics, her mental states and

Spoiler:

her 'divine' power.

That creativity which rivals that of Prometheus proves itself to be as horrifying as the gift of fire was to the gods (look at where the Greek gods are today?)

Kyon is unique in his role as not mere narriator but the bridge to observe the kind of 'madness' that is Haruhi. Haruhi, ever so curious of it all, becomes so destructive to the surrounding (as humanity is) as she refuses to conform and instead confronts/alters the very nature (again, humanity). Justifying means with ends, she relentlessly pushes her agenda of countering boredom. (Sounds almost hedonist utilitarian)

Haruhi becomes fascinating to me because... to me she embodies humanity. Ever so curious, ever so eager to play with fire, ever so headstrong, so proud, so uncompromising, maybe even nearsighted that she... we human... become monsters... freaks of nature in retrospect.

Spoiler:

Maybe, that is why humanity has yet to realize its powers just as Haruhi remains oblivious towards her abhored abilities. What a storm in a teacup.

Kyon does not shy in being the one that has the power to present and subsequently interpret the acts of the heroes... in some ways putting things into stone. He carries the weight of commentator which is from nearly of no significence to being the key influence with our conclusion on what we've been given. That in itself proves to be an interesting power... think of the power that Homer and all subsequent scribes and monks have had just in transcribing/retelling oral epics into how we know of them today.
Kyon's ventage point in observing Haruhi and the SOS is omnipresent in some ways. His narriation at time levitates him from the scene as he speaks directly to the audience and his access to all the actors seemingly fits everything into an acrylic case, just as Plutarch and his imitators have had the advantage of time as their mean of being omnipresent in their story retellings.

The strength in a pen or narriation though is relative (Leon Trotsky and an ice dagger illustrates that pretty clearly...) and it shows in Kyon's involvement. Funny in some ways and all too real as well >.< (though a bit bloody an illustration). I am liking him more and more as Haruhi progresses.

Spoiler:

(I thought about Mikuru using this starting point and what melange said and I feel strangely horrible over what I deduced about her. I guess this is becoming outside the bounds of ep3 so yea...)
A chill goes through my spine actually thinking of complicity as mentioned above as well as end justify the means as melange describes above. I don't have a coherent point to make yet but I am unsettled.

Originally Posted by melange in reply to Panzerfan

Nice. It seems that you've managed to pin down Haruhi's (and Kyon's) archetype

Spoiler for discussion on Haruhi's nature:

The flawed god/kami seems to fit Haruhi nicely and would jive well with Japanese mythology. Your mention of 'storm in a teacup' brings Susanoo the thunder god to mind. Wild and impulsive he frequently broke all the rules and was pretty much self-centered (at least in his youth), in a sense reminiscent of Haruhi.

Yet it seems that on the face of Itsuki's ramblings he defines a god as a 'creator' who exists outside of creation, away from the kami who are gods who can exist within creation, and argues that his personal opinion is that Haruhi is not a god but 'god-chosen' (I am guessing this whats referred to in the scene of Haruhi looking up at the night sky in the opening). Whether or not this is the author's definition of 'god' or not is uncertain and it is very probable that its just more 'denpa' talk he threw in to complicate matters/make things more interesting.

It seems evident that the more 'denpa' talk we get from Itsuki et. al. the more philosophical/speculative the discussions on Haruhi's nature can get. As such I'm beginning to wonder whether a separate thread for speculations such as these should be created as it definitely doesn't fit an episode discussion thread nor does it really fit the series prediction thread where similar stuff was brought up...

----------------------------------------
Posts on the ethics of Haruhi:

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian

You may say that, but Haruhi is not evil, in traditional sense. More like rampant disregard of other's well being .

Actually that's not exactly right.

Spoiler for minor-medium:

She backed off multiple times in various parts of the series when Kyon seriously confronts/reasons her on multiple occasions.

Spoiler for heavy-novel oriented:

For example, in the next episode (4 or 7, who cares), Kyon put a stop to Haruhi's rampage through the minor league.

Or the Itsuki's mansion scene where Kyon put a stop to Haruhi's filming because Mikuru is closed to her limit (after falling into the pond).

Or how Kyon forced Haruhi to put in the disclaimers at the end of the film. The disclaimer was NOT for parody.

You may even argue that, without Kyon, the world would be destroyed long before the animation starts. But that's another story.

As the story goes on, you will see different side of Haruhi. Some are nice, some are funny, one or two even made me go "wow I never knew she is like that inside her mind". The story needs time to develope its characters.

There is a method in her madness. More than method, actually. She is a very rounded character.

If I have to complain, I would complain about Mikuru. She gets the short end of the stick in terms of character developement. Therefore out of the four primary supportive characters, I like her the least.

Spoiler for very minor:

Not that she doesn't have any developement, but *cut off for viewers' sake*

To Sushi-

Spoiler for very heavy, novel oriented:

I think what Mikuru is about to experience in 2nd volume is going to be much more torturing, both mentally and physically, to her.

Spoiler:

Humiliations aside.

Imagine your body structure gets modified regularly by someone's will just because that someone wants your eyes to emit photon/neutron/whatever he/she thinks up to film a slapstick movie. And the only way to cure that each time is to let an mysterious alien that is magnitude more advance than you can ever understand to inject some god-knows-what nanoparticles into you. All the while you might kill the person you treasure most. The worst thing is you can't say NO, STOP IT! I HAVE ENOUGH to the person or else you risk the destruction of this and your own worlds.

Talk about suckage. No wonder she cried horrible during one of the filming scene.

But Kyon was there with her. I guess that's what pulled her though.

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y in reply to Lastguardian

That's true, although Haruhi's treatment of Mikuru in this episode was mean, it was still within the "can be laughed off as a joke" level. Some of the things Haruhi did in volume 2, on the other hand, really begins to push against that "funny/not funny" borderline (although she didn't really mean it). But then again, it all adds to the realism of Haruhi's character, don't you think? Haruhi's not Haruhi unless she's always dashing ahead at full-speed, ignoring all traffic signs.

Originally Posted by melange

Frankly the 'computer blackmail' scene isn't that disturbing in the anime or in the novel for me. I couldn't help but laugh. Though of course they are 'cruel', I found most of the Mikuru-bullying scenes funny in the black humor type way but it's actually another Mikuru-bullying scene in the 2nd novel that left me with a bad taste in my mouth and really soured my enjoyment of Haruhi.

Spoiler for 2nd novel spoilers:

When Haruhi whacks Mikuru on the back of her neck so that her contacts will 'pop out' and Kyon stops her saying, "Mikuru isn't your toy!", Haruhi responds, "I've decided that Mikuru-chan is my toy!!" Kyon grips his fist and was only stopped from punching Haruhi by Itsuki.

I did not expect the her to actually use words like that and I found myself wanting Kyon to punch her.

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y in reply to melange

Haruhi didn't mean it, of course. Remember, although Haruhi may appear like she's always doing things by her own methods, she's actually a perfectly logical person inside. What makes Haruhi unique is her ability to totally ignore those logics.

Spoiler for volume 2 scene:

As for reason for the irrisponsible outburst, just like Koizumi told Kyon later, Haruhi wasn't angry because her authority was being challenged, she was angry because she was disappointed, because she believed that Kyon would always be there to support her, that he would be the last person in the world to betray her. And we know that when people feel betrayed, they often let their emotions get the better of them (especially for the impulsive types, like Haruhi). So an irrisponsible comment or two under that condition shouldn't be surprising.

Of course, we don't even know if the anime would even bother to go back to volume 2 again, so maybe we won't get to see that scene at all.

Originally Posted by Eclipze in reply to Sushi-Y's "Haruhi didn't mean it of course"

Eh, I don't think thats a good reasoning/defence for Haruhi's actions.

Spoiler:

To give an example, a terrorist in Iraq just wanted to blow himself up and kill the people in the US ambassy. But just so happens that some innocent people (by-passers) get too near and die as well. The terrorist didn't mean it (to kill innocent bystanders who weren't targeted), but that doesn't mean that he is not to blame for the deaths of those innocents, correct?

And we all know that Haruhi is usually dead serious with what she says. So, while she may not mean to treat Mikuru badly, but she is still serious about treating Mikuru as a toy (which in essence, is the same thing): afterall, we're talking about a girl who has no time for normal people. It isn't beyond believable boundaries to say that she thinks of Mikuru as nothing more as a tool for whatever she wants (episode 2 should be evident enough).

Originally Posted by panzerfan in reply to Eclipze

That is the duality of the subject matter. Utilitarian will simply either say that a 'greater good' can be generated or that these acts of abuse has no downside from the perspective of the result as to prevent them. On the other hand moralists, relative or absolute will argue to infringements to fundamental 'rules' of these acts are not tolerable/wrong and gains do not take away from the impact of those infringements.

Spoiler:

Strangely enough, creativity is a process that goes after the end gains at any cost. Justification to self becomes the only requirement to fulfill for one to embark on the process. It sounds rather mad but the Pol Pot killing field, the great purge or the burning of Rome become grotesque pieces of 'art' in that sense (and revulting they are to look at...)

That same kind of fire drives Haruhi. Sushi-Y mentioned about how Haruhi's logical inside but defies the logical conclusions. Where have we seen this irl?

Looking at the visage that is yourself proves to be difficult... putting complicity aside there's the burden of arrogance to be answered. To make matters worse shames that adult put shroud/clothes over in silent recognition and to see such ugliness, unabridged and naked...blatently displayed.

In kyon's defense, he has a backbone. As a matter of fact Yuki and Itsuki have that as well. However, to put into context (and not spoil the story) let's just say Haruhi holds significent deterrence in her hands to keep the SOS at bay.

Originally Posted by Shirobane

Ok now for the parts that could get me in trouble in which I will spoiler so that those who choose to avoid my thoughts can do so

Spoiler for oh noes trouble ahead!:

Ok I have to admit that the extortion of the computer research club was kind of cruel upon Mikuru. HOWEVER I don't feel sorry for Mikuru, my reasoning as follows:

Spoiler for dual layer protection power!:

To me, Mikuru is simply a tool to build upon Haruhi's character. Reason being is that her character never changes regardless of the abuse she takes from Haruhi. Quite literally, Mikuru alternates from:
1. Mikuru is Cute
2. Mikuru is Crying
Because of her static behaviour, this leads me to believe that her purpose in the story is to further other characters...in other words, a tool. In a more elegant way of saying it, a literary device.

Keep in mind that this is creative work, where ethics and morals need not necessarily apply. If we were to be self-righteous, there would be many complaints about how killing/imprisoning/kidnapping/blahblahblah a sub-character to further the character development of a main character is unethical and morally wrong.

Also, Eclipze I don't think your example is very fitting of Haruhi's character as the intent to harm is already inherent in the action. Regardless if you didn't mean to harm someone else, the intent to harm is already present in that case. In Haruhi's case, she's more like a child trying to get your attention by pulling the tail of a cat who is clearly not enjoying the aggrivation. You (for example are the owner of the cat) aren't very happy since the child is basically torturing your cat, so you scold them. Mission success for the child as (s)he has obtained your attention now.

Speaking of which: @TheLastGuardian & Melange

Spoiler:

a little preamble beforehand: Damn you Melange, I clicked on your spoiler! Anyways, I'm not too sure of the context on your ch2 example, but could we consider that as reckless as Haruhi is to the feelings of everyone around her, Kyon is as reckless towards Haruhi's feelings? This is an assumption based on the narration that kind of villifies Haruhi whenever possible and that after Kyon's "trigger" Haruhi seems to attempt to grab Kyon's attention whenever possible.

----
In response to Shirobane
I'm sorry you clicked on the spoiler, but I did put "2nd novel spoilers" for a reason

Spoiler:

There is definitely a basis for assuming that; That Kyon is as reckless towards Haruhi's feelings as she is to the feelings of everyone else. He calls her idiot and stupid many times in his monologues. Of course the difference is that he does it in his own thoughts and not spoken out, though there are times he does call her 'idiot' directly. Re: when pulling Haruhi off 'molesting' Mikuru. In fact, we have to consider that Kyon frequently calls not just Haruhi but a lot of other people 'idiots' etc in his monologues. Example: Taniguchi. Not to mention his simmering hostility towards Itsuki. Kyon isn't completely a goody-two shoes either in that sense

[Onizuka-GTO]

Is it just me, or does kyon

Spoiler:

hostility towards Itsuki seems almost like jealousity?

When ever he's near Mikuru he gets that tone.
it seems to rise to the surface.

[panzerfan]

Kyon's narriation in ep0 are sarcastic and poignant so... they hint to another level of the obvious facts.

Spoiler:

It's not surprising why he would be like that. Itsuki's presense is unsettling from the perspective of the narriator as the omnipresence of the Kyon as a narriator is threatened by where Itsuki stands throughout the story. Kyon, who sees all the antics surrounding Haruhi and her merry pals from his vantage point simply could not take his eyes away from Itsuki... who looks from a distance moreso than Kyon.

No Keitarou, Kyon bleeds out his heartfelt comments in a very 'unassuming' way in ep0 and could be brushed off as mere humor elements. (this makes me like Kyon that much more) There is significant finesse on his part to achieve doublespeak and looks so good doing it.

Spoiler:

Kyon is so good with those narriations that he can pass off his bias by being genuine and deadpan. That narriation makes me think and frustrates me... and that's an odd feeling

[Onizuka-GTO]

well, its good that we know kyon is a "hero" is his own sense. After all...

Spoiler:

he doessave the universe from haruhi in some-what uconventional methods, aliken to "sticking you arm into a lion's mouth" so to speak

We salute you Kyon, for your manly sacrifice!

[Shirobane]

Hmm, so I see my post got Haruhi-ed over to this thread
Thanks for the response Melange and Thelastguardian from the ep 3 thread.

[panzerfan]

This has been really fun. It's been a long time since I baked my noddle over any anime and never did I just... think about it for a while and having to let it sink in. I practically sat in my chair as the posts just come in like a floodgate and try to hold onto the ride... slept late waiting for opinions if not answers. We've been having some very interesting conversations and we're not even 1/4 done with Haruhi the anime. This is great.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

This has been really fun. It's been a long time since I baked my noddle over any anime and never did I just... think about it for a while and having to let it sink in. I practically sat in my chair as the posts just come in like a floodgate and try to hold onto the ride... slept late waiting for opinions if not answers. We've been having some very interesting conversations and we're not even 1/4 done with Haruhi the anime. This is great.

yeah know what you mean, i've been sleeping at 7am for a the past week now. dammitr. i blame haruhi. but..but.. i can't stop...must......have...haruhi!!

I'm kinda scared, if im this bad, imagine if i had been expose to those sucidal cults?!!

i'm so glad it was haruhi.

haruhiism banzai,

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

Is it just me, or does kyon

Spoiler:

hostility towards Itsuki seems almost like jealousity?

When ever he's near Mikuru he gets that tone.
it seems to rise to the surface.

Here's what Kyon thinks of the SOS-dan members (imo):

Spoiler:

Haruhi: Trouble-maker, needs to be kept in check or she might accidently destroy the world, or something. Source of headaches.

Kyon complains about Haruhi all the time, but he's actually quite fond of her (he'll never admit it himself though). Through volume 4, we will learn that Haruhi has become an existence that Kyon needed in his life.

-----------
Yuki: Silent alien, THE person to count on when things go wrong. She's the only person who can make things right when Haruhi screws reality up.

Kyon actually likes Yuki quite a lot for her reliability, although he wishes she wouldn't be so emotionless all the time. Yuki was a meganekko (glasses girl) in the beginning, but ever since Kyon said he liked her better without glasses after the Asakura event, Yuki stopped wearing them.

-----------
Mikuru: Time traveller from the future, although she sure doesn't act like one. Needs to be protected.

Kyon considers Mikuru to be his innocent goddess, he loves watching her dressed up in various costumes (his favorite is still her maid costume, which will become Mikuru's "uniform" whenever she's in the SOS-dan club room), and seeing her smile "heals" him from the pains of Haruhi's tyranny.

-----------
Koizumi: Transfer student with supernatural powers. Wears a "smiles-are-free" face all the time, a yes-man, annoying.

From his annoying smiles to his "yes-man" attitude towards Haruhi, Koizumi irritates Kyon, it's that simple. Koizumi's constant reminder to Kyon that he needs to keep Haruhi in check also makes him a real bugger to Kyon.

[melange]

Haruhi really has worked herself into my daily life as like Onizuka I also have my sleep schedule all messed up because of her. How fitting

About Kyon's opinion of Mikuru...

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

Here's what Kyon thinks of the SOS-dan members (imo):
[spoiler]
Mikuru: Time traveller from the future, although she sure doesn't act like one. Needs to be protected.

Kyon considers Mikuru to be his innocent goddess, he loves watching her dressed up in various costumes (his favorite is still her maid costume, which will become Mikuru's "uniform" whenever she's in the SOS-dan club room), and seeing her smile "heals" him from the pains of Haruhi's tyranny.

Spoiler for novel 2 spoilers:

Spoiler for I said novel 2 spoilers so don't click this Shirobane! :heh::

Itsuki suggests towards the end of novel 2 that Mikuru's appearance as a fragile weak girl is directed towards appealing to Kyon's soft spots in order to gain influence over him as the key to Haruhi. Though in light of what happens in the rest of the novel, Itsuki's words may not be trusted but... What do the rest of you think of this? Mikuru does seem to me to be too fragile and too victim-ish to be true even before seeing this explanation and this makes me question her the innocence of her 'innocence'.

I must say that novel 2 has made me look at the 3 'abnormal' characters in a totally different light. Of course their various agendas was present from the beginning this highlights it even more. Though it did make me appreciate Yuki a lot more because she truthfully acknowledges that there is no way to prove to Kyon that what she said is true unlike Itsuki who till then (though he admits it also later) introduces his beliefs as 'truth'.

[Thelastguardian]

Originally Posted by melange

Haruhi really has worked herself into my daily life as like Onizuka I also have my sleep schedule all messed up because of her. How fitting

About Kyon's opinion of Mikuru...

Spoiler for novel 2 spoilers:

Spoiler for I said novel 2 spoilers so don't click this Shirobane! :heh::

Itsuki suggests towards the end of novel 2 that Mikuru's appearance as a fragile weak girl is directed towards appealing to Kyon's soft spots in order to gain influence over him as the key to Haruhi. Though in light of what happens in the rest of the novel, Itsuki's words may not be trusted but... What do the rest of you think of this? Mikuru does seem to me to be too fragile and too victim-ish to be true even before seeing this explanation and this makes me question her the innocence of her 'innocence'.

I must say that novel 2 has made me look at the 3 'abnormal' characters in a totally different light. Of course their various agendas was present from the beginning this highlights it even more. Though it did make me appreciate Yuki a lot more because she truthfully acknowledges that there is no way to prove to Kyon that what she said is true unlike Itsuki who till then (though he admits it also later) introduces his beliefs as 'truth'.

Spoiler spoiler tag...

Spoiler for don't press if you know what's good for you:

Who knows.

Maybe Mikuru's superior sent Mikuru simply because she is the only "enforcer" in the department that is childish in apparences (you know, we don't know how old Mikuru truely is. She may be older, or *gasp* much younger than Kyon). Or it could be a evil plot for the superior to get an edge over the other two through Mikuru's moe-ness. Mikuru wouldn't know this, of course.

On the other hand, Itsuki doesn't look so hot either. Neither is Yuki.

As they mentioned in the novel, they are technically enemies of each others (well, not Yuki, obviously, because she >>> the other two) . Only one of them could be "right". And the one that is "right" is the original world- the other two worlds are created by Haruhi.

But for now, they are merely observers (and helpers).

[panzerfan]

Of course, this leaves our point of reference at Kyon. We are forced to take Kyon's POV as absolute as we observe how everything moves around Haruhi (much like how Earth is where we make observations to how the solar system revolves around the sun and how the sun revolves around Alpha Centauri. )

Spoiler:

This of course reinforces the discussion between Itsuki and Nagato in ep0.
The question before Kyon is no trivial matter. Not making a decision due to insufficient information is sensible given the context. (Ep0's talk afterall has Kyon instead of Itsuki to the minds of all the actor parties involved)

[suguru]

These are purely random thoughts, although since the anime hasn't gotten into Haruhi's 'abilities' much yet I'll put it in spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

Reading these posts reminded me of a story by Scott Adams about what an omnipotent being would do for a challenge. In the story, the answer was the only real challenge for God would be to blow himself/herself up and see if he or she could be re-formed--but I think there are other challenges a Haruhi-like god could come up with.

If you assume gods have the same personalities as people (a big leap, but roll with me here) you'd have a good case for omnipotent beings getting bored as hell, since with unlimited power everything would be exactly the way they want it, with no surprises, nothing out of the ordinary since they'd know everything there is to know. You wouldn't have the thrill of cheering for your favorite sports team since you could just rig things so they'd win every game. I can picture a bored Haruhi sitting in Asgard/Heaven/Mt. Olypmus/etc saying "this sucks, I'm going to Earth since they seem to have more fun than I do--I'll wipe my own memory so I won't know I have these powers, and then can see what it's like to be a puny mortal." It'd be kind of like the god version of a vacation, with the memory erasing part being necessary to have a more authentic experience, but at the end of your life on Earth you'd just go back to being a god, with the memory of your 'vacation' intact.

Another possibility is there are a number of gods in the universe and Haruhi did something that got her kicked out of the realm of the gods--given she's kind of a troublemaker, it's not hard to see that happening. In that case, her punishment might have been to get exiled to Earth with her memory erased, but her powers intact, unknown to her. I think I like the vacation/escape from boredom scenario better though, it seems to fit Haruhi's personality.

[panzerfan]

Hmm... (it is odd how the discussions on Haruhi, unlike other animes recently, become very metaphysical/philisophical.)

Spoiler:

To quote Einstein, 'God does not play dice.' God makes the game and the players and let them play. Since Genesis has 'God created man in his own image' clause and Greek gods act act like soap opera actors, we can say that god bears similar personalities to mortals is not a far-fetched notion.

The assumption that you mentioned suguru would be beyond the novel plots to date I think. The nature of divinity and perhaps humanity are to be answered here. I actually think of Haruhi as a 'layer interface' for human being rather than a deity... which would lead to very different conclusions on the subject matter.

It would be interesting to pit a demi-god against a personafication of humanity as a whole. To me anyway the whole of humanity does not think with a 'socially acceptable common trait', humanity acts against what its own logic concludes, humanity behaves with such wanton disregard for limitation at times that it would be unthinkable for any individual to duplicate in his/her conducts and that humanity is lost in its own confines even as it knows how small it really is in the cosmos. (that was a long sentence)

The scary thing is that in our own words human being is already playing god... starting with gene splicing and cybernetic enhancements.

[melange]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

Another reply about future episode discussion, sorry for the double post. ^^;
===========================

That looks perfectly plausible too, ???????? is absolutely crucial to the story so it must be there. I think the first 7 episodes will probably play out just like the way you listed. 2 ?? episodes and ????? would serve as a good bridge (timeline wise) between volume 1 (??) and volume 4 (??), although there could be other combinations. As for 4 ?? episodes to round out the pack, I agree with that too. The anime will most likely end with the ?? ending, it's a lot more "neutral" compared to ??'s ending.
(But that means Yuki gets to take center stage during the final episodes then. I don't mind though, that "alternate" Yuki moe'd me to death ^^; )

I'm personally looking forward to seeing:

Spoiler:

the "alternate" Yuki:

and
Kouyouen Gakuin Haruhi:

Going back to the discussion on future episodes...

Spoiler:

Having just started on Vol. 3 Mysterious Sign, I noticed that Emiri from that story seems to show up in the opening too during the psychedelic Haruhi-running-while-the-other-characters-flash-by sequence. Wouldn't that mean that Mysterious Sign is another contender for showing up in the episode line up too?

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by melange

Going back to the discussion on future episodes...

Spoiler:

Having just started on Vol. 3 Mysterious Sign, I noticed that Emiri from that story seems to show up in the opening too during the psychedelic Haruhi-running-while-the-other-characters-flash-by sequence. Wouldn't that mean that Mysterious Sign is another contender for showing up in the episode line up too?

It's possible, although it's not that important of a chapter.

The thing is, if we were to set "The end of volume 4" as the anime's ending, then that would give us a clear range of the short-stories that might be included in the anime. Here's an in-story timeline of the Suzumiya Haruhi series, up to the end of volume 4:

Spoiler:

April ~ May (new school term)
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (From: 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱) (we know this will be covered in the anime, probably without the ending) (Episode 2, 3)

June
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Taikutsu (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈) (the baseball competition) (Episode 4)

July
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Mysterious Sign (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Lone Island Syndrome (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)

August (summer holiday)
- Endless Eight (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)

November (culture festival)
- Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki (From: 涼宮ハルヒの溜息)
- Live A Live (From: 涼宮ハルヒの動揺)
- Asahina Mikuru no Bouken Episode 00 (From: 涼宮ハルヒの動揺) (Episode 1)
- The Day of Sagittarius (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)

December
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Shoushitsu (From: 涼宮ハルヒの消失) (The latter/final episodes for the anime)

To clean it up a little,

Spoiler:

Here are the stories that comes in between April and December that have not been confirmed in the anime yet:
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Mysterious Sign (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Lone Island Syndrome (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Endless Eight (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)
- Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki (From: 涼宮ハルヒの溜息)
- Live a Live (From: 涼宮ハルヒの動揺)
- The Day of Sagittarius (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)

Personally, I don't think Lone Island Syndrome would work, since it's relatively long and totally seperated from the rest of the story. As for Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki... Maybe a couple of episodes (since it's a whole volume) if they want to do a follow up for Episode 00 or something. Live A Live is the culture festival day just before the airing of Episode 00. Again, not that crucial.

This means, for me personally, the possible choices are:
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Mysterious Sign (From: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈)
- Endless Eight (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)
- The Day of Sagittarius (From: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走)

Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is totally crucial to volume 4, so it's almost 100% certain it'll be in.
Mysterious Sign isn't all that important, but since Emiri is in the OP, maybe it'll be in too?
Endless Eight is a good fanservice episode, it wouldn't hurt to have it ^^; (it would also explain the 15498 over at the official site's activity log)
The Day of Sagittarius would be a perfect intro to volume 4 (well, it IS the final event before volume 4), and Super Admiral Haruhi would be interesting to see too. ^^;

My version of the episode list, then, would probably look like:

Spoiler:

第1話　朝比奈ミクルの冒険 Episode 00
第2話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅰ
第3話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅱ
第4話　涼宮ハルヒの退屈
第5話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅲ
第6話　涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅳ
第7話　笹の葉ラプソディ
第8話　ミステリックサイン
第9話　エンドレスエイト
第10話　射手座の日
第11話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅰ
第12話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅱ
第13話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅲ
第14話　涼宮ハルヒの消失Ⅳ

Of course, this doesn't take into consideration of the fact that the in-story timeline is being messed up (episode 4's baseball tournament happening during volume 1, for example), and Haruhi's whole "episode 7" thing... Given the fact that episode 2 and 3 (憂鬱Ⅰand Ⅱ) each covered about 60 pages of volume 1, assuming the pace remains the same, 2 more episodes (憂鬱 Ⅲ and Ⅳ) should be more than enough to cover the rest of volume 1 (save the ending) (60 pages x 4 = 240 pages). On top of that, this means that Ⅲ would probably stop on page 180: right at the beginning of Kyon's confrontation with Asakura. Ⅳ should then finish off volume 1 contents nicely. After that, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to move on to Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (ep7), which is literally a turning point for the story. After that, we come back for some lighter episodes like Mysterious Sign (ep8) and Endless Eight (ep9), before letting The Day of Sagittarius (ep10) lead us into volume 4 (消失) (ep11-14)

In case you can't tell, I love pointlessly guessing future episode directions. ^^;

[melange]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

It's possible, although it's not that important of a chapter.

The thing is, if we were to set "The end of volume 4" as the anime's ending, then that would give us a clear range of the short-stories that might be included in the anime. Here's an in-story timeline of the Suzumiya Haruhi series, up to the end of volume 4:

Spoiler:

April ~ May (new school term)
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (From: ????????) (we know this will be covered in the anime, probably without the ending) (Episode 2, 3)

June
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Taikutsu (From: ????????) (the baseball competition) (Episode 4)

July
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: ????????)
- Mysterious Sign (From: ????????)
- Lone Island Syndrome (From: ????????)

August (summer holiday)
- Endless Eight (From: ????????)

November (culture festival)
- Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki (From: ????????)
- Live A Live (From: ????????)
- Asahina Mikuru no Bouken Episode 00 (From: ????????) (Episode 1)
- The Sagittarius Day (From: ????????)

December
+ Suzumiya Haruhi no Shoushitsu (From: ????????) (The latter/final episodes for the anime)

To clean it up a little,

Spoiler:

Here are the stories that comes in between April and December that have not been confirmed in the anime yet:
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: ????????)
- Mysterious Sign (From: ????????)
- Lone Island Syndrome (From: ????????)
- Endless Eight (From: ????????)
- Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki (From: ????????)
- Live a Live (From: ????????)
- The Day of Sagittarius (From: ????????)

Personally, I don't think Lone Island Syndrome would work, since it's relatively long and totally seperated from the rest of the story. As for Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki... Maybe a couple of episodes (since it's a whole volume) if they want to do a follow up for Episode 00 or something. Live A Live is the culture festival day just before the airing of Episode 00. Again, not that crucial.

This means, for me personally, the possible choices are:
- Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (From: ????????)
- Mysterious Sign (From: ????????)
- Endless Eight (From: ????????)
- The Sagittarius Day (From: ????????)

Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is totally crucial to volume 4, so it's almost 100% certain it'll be in.
Mysterious Sign isn't all that important, but since Emiri is in the OP, maybe it'll be in too?
Endless Eight is a good fanservice episode, it wouldn't hurt to have it ^^; (it would also explain the 15498 over at the official site's activity log)
The Sagittarius Day would be a perfect intro to volume 4 (well, it IS the final event before volume 4), and Super Admiral Haruhi would be interesting to see too. ^^;

My version of the episode list, then, would probably look like:

Spoiler:

?1??????????? Episode 00
?2???????????
?3???????????
?4??????????
?5???????????
?6???????????
?7??????????
?8???????????
?9??????????
?10???????
?11???????????
?12???????????
?13???????????
?14???????????

Of course, this doesn't take into consideration of the fact that the in-story timeline is being messed up (episode 4's baseball tournament happening during volume 1, for example), and Haruhi's whole "episode 7" thing... Given the fact that episode 2 and 3 (???and ?) each covered about 60 pages of volume 1, assuming the pace remains the same, 2 more episodes (?? ? and ?) should be more than enough to cover the rest of volume 1 (save the ending) (60 pages x 4 = 240 pages). On top of that, this means that ? would probably stop on page 180: right at the beginning of Kyon's confrontation with Asakura. ? should then finish off volume 1 contents nicely. After that, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to move on to Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (ep7), which is literally a turning point for the story. After that, we come back for some lighter episodes like Mysterious Sign (ep8) and Endless Eight (ep9), before letting The Sagittarius Day (ep10) lead us into volume 4 (??) (ep11-14)

In case you can't tell, I love pointlessly guessing future episode directions. ^^;

*lets out a small tameiki* Well any attempt I have at trying to discuss the episode line-up is going to be handicapped by my plodding progress through the novels but...

Spoiler for about Taikutsu in the middle of vol 1:

My guess here is they will have to directly link Itsuki's explanation/demonstration in Vol 1 with Itsuki's warning about the shinjin appearing during the baseball match in Taikutsu. The Taikutsu match doesn't really stand alone without the subtext of the shinjin so it would make sense to put the shinjin in front of the match but then we would have Yuki's explanation immediately followed by Itsuki's explanation which might be too much. So I'm thinking Yuki's explanation -> Itsuki's intro -> baseball match leading straight to shinjin. This of course brings up the matter of how to handle Kyon's non-knowledge of the necessity of having Haruhi win, unless they simply have Itsuki and Yuki conspiring to rig the match and Kyon watching what happens in absolute disbelief. Ermm.. yea

Edit:

Spoiler for usage or non-usage of Vol. 1 ending:

Whether it will be used in the middle of the anime or as the end of the anime is another question, but using the same logic as that for Emiri's appearance, I think they will be using Vol. 1's ending somewhere. Why else would they display Yuki's "また図書館に" line so prominently in the opening?