2009-03-15, 01:46 | Link #22 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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LOL... smart.fm has one of the most UNinformative homepages I've ever seen. There's almost no clue as to its purpose outside of a couple of Japan references and vague "apps""blogs" stuff.....
So yeah, please enlighten us more about this site because it sure is opaque.
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2009-03-15, 02:49 | Link #23 |
Member
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Oh, sorry
If you make a profile you can study Japanese vocab through an application called iKnow. Also, It complies list of vocabulary from things such as Hiragana times, so you can read the articles and practice the vocab as well. Isn't there a "take a tour" link on the home page? None the less, I've been enjoying studying on that site (but by no means should it be your only means of studying). Recently, they applied a new feature that allows you to d/l a podcast of recently studied words. Pretty neat site. |
2009-03-15, 04:42 | Link #24 | ||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 34
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Furthermore, we may be able to answer this question by analyzing the historical kana usage in the ED (むすひのとき). There are some parts of it that make sense when analyzing the readings of the words vs. their written form. For example: 罪と云ふ is pronounced as つみという despite the different reading. 持ちて is the equivalent of 持って (Someone confirm this for me, I remember reading this somewhere but I'm not sure where). 直き pronounced なほき in the song was read that way pre-Gendai Kanazukai, but holds the same meaning as なおき (は ひ ふ へ ほ = わ い う え お). Kana was often used in this way during the Edo period. Also, the term 妾(わらわ) was used for "I" by females during the Edo period, itself derived from 童, which apparently means child, and thus is used in conjunction with humble form at times (although this seems like a bit of a contradiction considering Nagi's attitude of being somewhat proud). I think it might simply be an early Edo dialect, or something along those lines. Plus, Nagi's way of using の instead of ね (see example above) sees modern usage in some Kansai dialects (chuugoku, specifically Hiroshima-ben according to Wiki), which I doubt is derived from a much earlier, secluded type of dialect like Oiran. Quote:
Of course, this is all speculation. Just to be sure, I asked a friend from Sendai about Kannagi, and he should give me a reply soon. After all, the locations in the manga/anime are based off Sendai the city. :P Maybe he'll know something about the language too. Last edited by Kylaran; 2009-03-15 at 05:03. |
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2009-03-15, 11:35 | Link #25 | ||
nani ni tatoemu
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2009-03-16, 10:04 | Link #26 |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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I have heard that "every respectable Japanese household owns a copy of the 広辞苑"
Not sure if it's true or not, but frankly it's not actually that pricey . The electronic version is 1000% more useful, though, unless you are really fluent in Japanese. The ability to cross reference with a denshi jisho is invaluable to really understanding the entries anyway. Ultimately, however, it is never really the best reference. There are more complete dictionaries of 4 character expressions, or old place names, or classical japanese, or kotowaza, or simply vocabulary. But being a decent reference for all of them in one book does make it impressive. The advent of having 10 different dictionaries in a single memory card has kind of damped the usefulness of it.
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2009-03-17, 01:36 | Link #27 | ||||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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@ Kylaran - I'm glad to see a spark of interest back in that direction. I'll try and get to it when I'm not so tired. |
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2009-03-28, 14:57 | Link #28 | |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Shame on me for neglecting my own thread for so long. So let's see if I can save this from slipping into the abyss. First off is a reminder for -
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Interesting points brought up by Kylaran. So he's suggesting that they're both Edo period dialects. It's not guaranteed to be accurate but I did some research on wikipedia. Haha, which probably should've been done from the get go. What I found so far for Horo is interesting. What she uses is called 廓詞 (くるわことば), which is what the 遊女 or 花魁 used during the Edo period. So her dialect isn't called 花魁言葉 but rather 廓詞. And there are different forms within that, and Horo uses the ありんす詞 form. I'll post the links for the pages I found below along with what I think are the most important lines from them. 廓詞(くるわことば)は、江戸時代、遊郭で遊女が使用することば、そのことばづかいである。 http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%93%E8%A9%9E 廓詞(くるわことば) 遊女達は全国から集められており、訛りを隠すために「~ありんす」など独特の言葉を使っていた。廓詞は揚屋 によって異なっていた。里詞、花魁詞、ありんす詞とも。 http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%8A%B1%E9%AD%81 I found the second one to be pretty interesting because it says that the 廓詞 was developed in order to hide the different accents that the girls had. Let's see if I can find as much on Nagi's dialect...hmm...I'm not really finding much. I'll have to try searching again some other time. I have some questions I wanted to post but I'll put them over in the other threads to avoid breaking my own rule. I’m not sure what difficulty they’d be considered. |
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2009-03-28, 22:40 | Link #29 |
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Thanks a lot on the explanations on the 廓詞 used by Horo. It sound pretty interesting indeed. So maybe it means Horo is actually hiding something from Lawrence, by deliberately using a made-up accent to cover up her real one?
Btw I have been trying to find some site that teaches basic 廓詞 grammar and vocabulary, but to no avail . The wikipedia explanations you quoted also mention that the 廓詞 used is different from brothel to brothel. The lack of generalized grammar rules and linguistic structures probably makes it very easy to get swallowed by the tide of times. |
2009-03-29, 14:17 | Link #30 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Haha, interesting inference there about Horo hiding something. Giving the setting I would have to say that's not the case though. Besides, we already know where she comes from.
Hmm...that may be tough to find something for that. I'm pretty sure there would have to be something out there, but my guess would be that it's probably in books. You could email the author of 狼と香辛料 and ask him how he learned it, haha. |
2009-04-03, 05:17 | Link #31 | |
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 34
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In essence, the rules can be derived from reading into grammatical patterns of the more well known patterns of speech from the same time period. Considering that language, a tool for communication, requires that concepts and ideas be transmitted clearly in order to have actual communication, I doubt the basic structure and meaning of the words in the sentences differ significantly from their contemporary counterparts when working in the same language. |
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2009-05-19, 22:06 | Link #32 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Man this thread gets buried quickly.
Well I finally went back to the Japanese book store at the Mitsuwa and tried looking for an advanced grammar book. Unfortunately I was only able to find ONE! Which was kind of disappointing. It looked like it'd be pretty useful but I didn't want to spend the $30 or so on it when there's probably better ones out there. So my options are now to order one online or wait until I go back to Japan this August. I'm easily leaning towards the second, although I'd like to have one now as I plan on reading a lot of my novels over the summer. The problem with ordering online though, is not being able to flip through it to check it out. Hmm... So nobody has an advanced Japanese topic they want to talk about? Haha, myself included? |
2009-05-21, 18:32 | Link #34 | |
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 34
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Quote:
~まじ is also a predicative indicator of what one shouldn't do, but I've mostly seen it used in a first person sense. That is, その方と一生会うまじ would mean something along the lines of その人と絶対会わない. I'm not really sure of the distinction myself, especially since まじ isn't very common. |
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2009-05-21, 22:16 | Link #35 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Interesting. I didn't know there was a まじ with that meaning. I only know the "really?" one, or are they related in some way? And I know べく/べし, but I didn't know it conjugated. To add on top of Kylaran's explanation, here are some definitions from my dictionary. べからず is easy, but I can't find a nice concise one for まじ.
べからず - ①…してはいけない。…すべきではない。「立ち入るべからず」 ②…することができない。「許すべからざる行為」 Although I don't know either well, judging by the definitions, it seems that the difference between them is that べからず is more "can't" and まじ is more "don't". |
2009-05-21, 22:27 | Link #36 |
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 34
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For further reference:
http://www.lingwiki.com/index.php?ti...panese_grammar You'll find varying forms, including べからず and まじ. Seems like those two endings have been around for a while. |
2009-05-22, 02:23 | Link #37 |
ここに居ってんねん
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Osaka
Age: 39
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"まじ" as frequently encountered in spoken Japanese (e.g. "まじで!?") is youth slang (presumably derived from 真面目), that roughly means "srsly!?" or "no wai!!11" It has no bearing on the historical grammatical suffix of the same spelling.
Last edited by RandomGuy; 2009-06-02 at 08:18. |
2009-06-01, 17:18 | Link #38 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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So the two まじ aren't related. I didn't think they were.
@ Kylaran - An interesting thing you posted there. I can't say I understand it all though. It'll take a little time to look through it and figure out what it all is. But for a bit of clarification, those are charts for old Japanese grammar? From what period though? I don't think I saw that in there, although I only skimmed through it. |
2009-06-11, 15:44 | Link #39 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: japan
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Is it the difference of the meaning of "〜べからず" and "〜まじ" ?
You talk about the difficult thing. Even a Japanese does not understand it well. Because it is old words. 「〜べからず」 1.(Use it for the end of a sentence)It is words to mean prohibition. You must not do it.(…してはいけない) Do not do it.(…するな) 2.(In form of "ざるべからず")It is words to mean will to emphasize instructions and an order. Do it.(…せよ) 3.It is words to mean impossibility. I cannot do it.(…できない) 4.It is words to deny a natural thing. I cannot do it.(…するはずがない) 「〜まじ」 1.It is words to mean the will of the guess of the negation. There will not be it.(…ないだろう) There cannot be it.(…ないに違いない) 2.It is words to mean will of the negation. It is a few intention.(…ないつもりだ) I do not intend to do it.(…するつもりはない) 3.It is words to mean that I am natural that it is denied. I cannot do it.(…するはずがない) It is natural that there is not.(…ないのが当然だ) 4.It is words to mean the will of the guess of the impossibility. I do not seem to be it.(…できそうもない) I seem not to be able to do it.(…できないようだ) 5.It is words to mean will of the inappropriate and prohibition. You had better not do it.(…しないほうがよい) You must not do it.(…てはならない) Do not do it.(…するな) "まじ" is regarded as negation of "べし". After the Heian era, "まじ" was used for "べからず", but it was pushed in "まい" which occurred newly and tapered off. Last edited by noraemon; 2009-06-11 at 20:40. |
2009-06-19, 00:02 | Link #40 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Hm, nice explanations there, noraemon. I guess what I was thinking about the difference being "can't" and "don't" was pretty close.
If you wouldn't mind, could you explain that last part again for me? I think I know what you're saying, but not completely. 日本人ですか、noraemonさん? |
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japan, language learning |
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