F/SN UBW TV - Episode 21 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Levani]

It was supposed to be much more intense while also going with all these philosophies and flashbacks.

I think that's impossible to make. You can't high high speed action as your characters talk about ideals. That would look really ridiculous. (Example, Deen's UBW)

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Levani

I think that's impossible to make. You can't high high speed action as your characters talk about ideals. That would look really ridiculous. (Example, Deen's UBW)

Deen's UBW pretty much skipped any of it, IIRC.
And of course it's obvious if you include everything in the VN it'd look ridiculous.
See Gilgamesh's speech in this episode.
It began to drag on after halfway in it. This isn't so strange in VNs especially not in FSN because it's so verbose.
But effectively Gilgamesh's monologue was supposed to be just a brief detour before he resumes his attack.

Still, there could've been better ways than just making Archer standing around bored most of the time. I mean they caught the emotion of the scene well. Why couldn't they amp up the fight's intensity a bit?
There are tons of series where moments of the fight scene are interrupted with flashbacks or such.
As such it ended up with Gilgamesh pretty much stealing the spotlight for this episode.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

It's actually a contradiction with canon because both the VN and interviews said that Arhcer's brown skin and white hair comes from him overstraining himself with Projection and also messing up quite a few times.
That and being a lot in Africa or the Middle East, you know places where the most trouble might be brewing.

Reckoner isn't talking about his physical appearance.

[Levani]

Gilgamesh's scene was perfection, fight me on that xDD

But back to Archer, if we got a high speed fight and threatening action, I don't really think Shirou would be capable enough to react and dodge. He'd lose immediately if Archer was fighting with his full strength. It would've been pretty silly to have Shirou fight like...Lancer for example and actually do a good job against Archer. I firmly believe that it's more logical for this fight to be calm and slow. The main point was never a fight between these two characters in the VN, but rather an ideal clash.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Levani

Gilgamesh's scene was perfection, fight me on that xDD

But back to Archer, if we got a high speed fight and threatening action, I don't really think Shirou would be capable enough to react and dodge. He'd lose immediately if Archer was fighting with his full strength. It would've been pretty silly to have Shirou fight like...Lancer for example and actually do a good job against Archer. I firmly believe that it's more logical for this fight to be calm and slow. The main point was never a fight between these two characters in the VN, but rather an ideal clash.

Actually, I think the scene got trimmed down a bit. It's kind of strange how the BGM suddenly restarts.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think this all but confirms the idea that Archer's final appearance in this route is a result of the counter force as many fans suspected .

You mean when he bought Shirou enough time to launch UBW? It just occurred to me, too. I mean, here we have Gilgamesh trying to destroy humanity, which would elicit a response from the counter force and a counter guardian on the scene.

[Kanon]

Oh wow! I didn't expect a Fate/Extra reference in there. Incidentally, if you want to find out more about Archer's past, you need to play it. It's the only place where you can get his backstory. It's also really nice to see what happened to him after the events of F/SN and more particularly UBW.

Originally Posted by iamandragon

That's not Shirou's version of reality marble. Reality Marbles are not something that is "normal" the World sees, so when you open one the world is always trying to break it from outside. You need to continuously channel mana into the reality marble to counter the World's effort in breaking your marble. In addition, magicians like Shirou have magic circuits that repel other people's magic and he is also repelling Archer's Unlimited Blade Works from inside.

Trivia:

Magic circuits of a magician does not only make magical energy, but it can also repel external magical energy. That's why every magician in the F/SN are always using some kind of physical weapon with their magic integrated in it instead of screaming "Avada Kadavra!" all the time. Physical impacts work on everyone. People bleed if they are cut.

You're thinking way too much and looking at this too mechanically. That was Shirou's UBW. Archer's reality marble turned into Shirou's as a result of Shirou overcoming his will. It's supposed to be symbolic. And it was very well done, definitely my favorite part of the episode.

[Rev Okkin]

That was really good IMO.
Also, it seems that either Ep 20 and 21 were meant as an hour long episode or Ep 20 was the climax and 21 is the falling action to it.
And yeah, symbolism freaking everywhere. It's gonna be fun analysing it when this is done.

[Gaulek]

So the awesome younger EMIYA's design is from Extra:


Good episode.
Liked to see some EMIYA's flashback about his life.
I liked too the end of the fight between Archer and Shirou.
Nice to heard the thought of Saber about her life and the fight.

Gilgamesh was awesome, and the end with Shinji

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think this all but confirms the idea that Archer's final appearance in this route is a result of the counter force as many fans suspected .

You mean instead of having bided his time with his last remaining energy as Word of God says?

I know, I don't place much value in Word of God either.

What I want to know is, what is the "this" you refer to that "all but confirms" it? Because I don't see anything that's a confirmation of it.


Re: Gilgamesh:

I don't think the grail did anything to him. In fact isn't it the point that Gilgamesh is the only thing in the world that can't be affected by the curses?

[Amarantine]

The first part of the episode was great and the climax and conclusion to the Shirou vs Archer battle was appropriately thrilling and cathartic, but it seems that, even though the episode's title was "Answer", they're leaving Archer's actual answer ("I was not wrong") to the epilogue like in the VN. I'm fine with that, but I'm curious as to how ufotable will present that kind of scene in an animated medium. They've done well with the tricky scenes so far though, so I think they can pull it off.

I also liked how this episode made more clear that the way Archer (and Kiritsugu himself) strove for the ideal was mistaken and more of a corruption of the original ideal to save everyone (rather than kill hundreds to save thousands), and how Shirou intends to stay true to it come what may (even if it is impossible and a fairytale, the wish and the effort are still worth it). I think some people overlook that and assume Shirou is necessarily going to succumb to the same utilitarianism as Archer and Kiritsugu.

I didn't enjoy the second half of the episode as much, although it was still fairly enjoyable. But I was hoping they would try and make Archer's "death" and Gilgamesh's decision to take leave less obvious plot conveniences, and alas, they left them untouched. And maybe I've just been spoiled by Fate/Zero (not in plot sense of the word "spoil"), but this more overtly evil and maniacal Gilgamesh just isn't as interesting to me. I still enjoy Tomokazu Seki's performance a lot though, and they did a fairly good job of setting him and Shirou up as bitter enemies with a reason to want to beat each other.

[Reckoner]

I don't know how in the world anyone can interpret what happened in the anime as archer not disappearing.

I don't care about word of God because I'm of the opinion that once a creation leaves their hands, it's up to the fans. Interviews don't mean jack to me, and his idea of how Archer lived that incident is stupid to me.

[bhl88]

- Archer was supposed to kill him, but couldn't, once he finally remembered a piece of memory that he had locked away. And that, defeated him.

Though I wish he pushed Shirou away....

- Lancer being badass as usual, his ashes are annoying Gilgamesh.

- Gilgamesh totally forgot about his match with Rider... it's probably because he got corrupted....

- Dammit, Archer should have disappeared behind a smoke screen.... but yeah, there was no body and blood.

[Gaulek]

Originally Posted by bhl88

- Archer was supposed to kill him, but couldn't, once he finally remembered a piece of memory that he had locked away. And that, defeated him.

Though I wish he pushed Shirou away.....

This?

[Jaggery]

The movie handled it kind of poorly. Archer used UBW, takes a sword from the ground, and that's it. It disappears later, and it looked like if Shirou actually beat Archer, even though Archer let Shirou stab him in the end. Archer had to break Shirou's spirit before killing him, it didn't show much on that in that UBW movie.

Here, there was a meaning in the use of UBW. And Archer actually shot swords from it. And it showed more reasons why Shirou won't give up on his ideal.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't know how in the world anyone can interpret what happened in the anime as archer not disappearing.

I don't care about word of God because I'm of the opinion that once a creation leaves their hands, it's up to the fans. Interviews don't mean jack to me, and his idea of how Archer lived that incident is stupid to me.

Uhhh what? Who's saying anything about him not disappearing? I mean he clearly disappeared there.

Also, while I too like taking Word of God with a grain of salt, I think declaring the author Dead is kind of rude to him. Fan entitlement is not a virtue.

I'm just asking how this "confirms" that the counterforce summoned him for absolutely no reason, instead of the much simpler explanation that he was just biding his time.

[Gaulek]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Uhhh what? Who's saying anything about him not disappearing? I mean he clearly disappeared there.

Also, while I too like taking Word of God with a grain of salt, I think declaring the author Dead is kind of rude to him. Fan entitlement is not a virtue.

I'm just asking how this "confirms" that the counterforce summoned him for absolutely no reason, instead of the much simpler explanation that he was just biding his time.

Maybe I need to watch again, but I think, we only saw a piece of his red clothes dissapear.

[MCAL]

Poor Shinji. I felt really bad for.... Ha, ha, ha! Just kidding. May you burn in hell.

Anyway, I'd say Ufotable did a fine job on the whole Archer vs Shirou. The very end was nicely done.

Up next, Sex. Or Dolphins. One of those two.

[Polarpew]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

So was Gil corrupted by the grail and become a bit insane even if it doesn't really show it?

Compared to F/Z Gil, he still throws the King act around, but I never saw F/Z Gil as the genocide humans for the hell of it kind of guy even if he's full of himself.
And doing this kind of breaks his promise to F/Z Rider as well. I know F/Z is the prequel, but still, I think the difference is on purpose.

nope, he becomes a big more cruel, but overall he could not be corrupted by the grail, hell even Saber was corrupted by it in Heaven's Feel route, yet Gilgamesh wasn't. That's due to his immense ego and the fact that he views his kingship as holding up his entire kingdom (which was the entire world). Therefore he cannot be affected by any mental effects

Originally Posted by Dengar

You mean instead of having bided his time with his last remaining energy as Word of God says?

I know, I don't place much value in Word of God either.

What I want to know is, what is the "this" you refer to that "all but confirms" it? Because I don't see anything that's a confirmation of it.


Re: Gilgamesh:

I don't think the grail did anything to him. In fact isn't it the point that Gilgamesh is the only thing in the world that can't be affected by the curses?

you're right, he's not being summoned as a Counter Guardian at the end of the route. That's clearly impossible since Counter Guadians don't have any will of their own when summoned by Alaya. That was why Archer wanted to die so badly, since he had no control over his actions and forced to kill over and over, millions, upon millions, without saving a single live directly since he has to eliminate the witnesses as well as anyone connected to the people involved in his summoning

[Reckoner]

Well surely they come up with a better reason for Archer living than just cuz. I always thought the counter guardian assessment made sense. Some of you are also taking the no will of their own thing too literally. I think what that means is they literally have no say in being summoned and forced to clean up in these situations almost like a command seal. That doesn't mean they're brain dead machines.