learning japanese by watching anime?

[warita]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I don't know about that, part of the problem with English is that any syllable written down can be pronounced one of 5 or 6 ways. A Japanese Kana is always pronounced one way (occasionally 2 ways), making it pretty easy to memorise all the varying pronunciations, particularly if you've listened to a lot of Anime and have an instinctive grasp of how Japanese is pronounced.

In english "A" can be pronounced 3 or 4 ways ("Aw" "Aa" "Uh"etc.), In Japanese it's always "Aa". I think Americans may have a slightly more difficult time of it, because they seem to pronounce words like "Anime" as "Awnime", which has a totally incorrect A sound. In Ireland it's always "Aanime". To go from English to Japanese you only need to make your syllables a bit shorter, more abrupt and less "flowy". Fairly easy.

Compared to Chinese pronouncing spoken Japanese is easy. It would be very easy to replace every single Kana in Japanese with a 1-3 letter equivalent in Romaji/English.

But DonQuigleone, thats what he meant to say! That german speakers have an advantage over english speakers, because in german there is only ONE WAY to pronounce the letters and that happens to be the same as in japanese. So while english speaking students might have trouble pronouncing the japanese words written in romanji correctly, german people dont strugle with it at all.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by warita

But DonQuigleone, thats what he meant to say! That german speakers have an advantage over english speakers, because in german there is only ONE WAY to pronounce the letters and that happens to be the same as in japanese. So while english speaking students might have trouble pronouncing the japanese words written in romanji correctly, german people dont strugle with it at all.

Maybe, but in English all the letters/syllables have a default pronounciation that english speakers will default to when seeing an unfamiliar word, which varies depending on your dialect. I can say with some certainty that the Irish English "default" pronounciation of any Japanese word is very close to what it is in Japanese.

Furthermore, because of the flexibility in pronounciation, if an english speaker encounters a japanese kana that does not correspond to this "default" it will still correspond to another acceptable way to pronounce it within English, and so not really throw the English speaker off. He will likely only ever need to be informed once or twice per Kana.

In the German case, if as you say, every German letter/syllable has one pronounciation (or at least less variations then English), then when it matches up with Japanese it's perfectly fine, but if it doesn't match up with Japanese the German will likely be in greater difficulty then the english speaker, and put more effort into remembering the "proper" pronounciation, and recoding their brain to recognise those letters on the page as they would be properly.

As an example, taking german-> english, if german did not possess the English "Th" sound (as in "the"), spelled with a th combination, but read it instead as an aspirated "T" like "Teh", they would have to go to considerably effort to change their perception of english texts so that they perceive the TH combination properly, and they might meet further difficulty if suddenly there was a t followed by a h in another context, say a hypothetical word like "shothare", which would be pronounced "shot-hare", but the german may accidentally pronounce it "sho-thare".

(note on the above, that's just an example, I don't know if German has the Th sound, or if germans have any difficulty with it. With more effort I might have found something...)

Anyway, there is no Japanese pronounciation of a Romaji, that gives any difficulty to an English speaker (other then the English speaker's learning to use a Japanese accent effectively). In fact the hepburn system (the most commonly used system) is based on English phonology.

As a counterpoint, if you want a romanization system that English speakers have difficulty with, Chinese Pinyin is a very good example. Many of it's romanizations, while internally consistent, are non-obvious to an english speaker. For instance, X is pronounced more like english "Sh". But this is partially down to the fact that Chinese has a lot more sounds that are not present (or frequent) in English, while Japanese has no sounds that do not occur in English.

[Dhomochevsky]

If that is so, then why do many english dubs fail so hard when it comes to pronouncing japanese names?
I could show a romaji written japanese name to my mother who has probably never knowingly listened to japanese ever and she would likely get it right on the first try (maybe mess up the timing a bit).
But english voice actors can't do it?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

But english voice actors can't do it?

The voice actors will pronounce it how ever they're told to. Most likely the companies are Americanizing it. The pronunciation would sound foreign otherwise, and given that the names are already clearly foreign, altering the pronunciation is a way to make it sound more "normal" here.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The voice actors will pronounce it how ever they're told to. Most likely the companies are Americanizing it. The pronunciation would sound foreign otherwise, and given that the names are already clearly foreign, altering the pronunciation is a way to make it sound more "normal" here.

Indeed, another thing to bear in mind is that almost all Dubs are performed in Californian American English, which has quirks not present in other Englishes (for instances the "A" in Anime/Manga becoming an "Aw", so that Manga becomes Monga).

Not only that, but it's sometimes desirable to tweak pronounciation a bit to make it easier on the ear. For instance, in Cardcaptors, the main character is Sakura, her name goes from "Sa-Ku-Ra" in Japanese, to "Sa-kera", with an emphasis on the first syllable (where in Japanese there is no emphasis). The actual pronounciation is fairly similiar, but it's been accented.

Anyway, usually the problem with dubs is the opposite, that the parties in Japan annally force them to follow the the Japanese naming precisely, and not localise it at all, even going so far as to maintain Japanised versions of Western Names, rather then use the original Western name! There are really good examples of this going on, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I think there were particular good examples somewhere in Gundam.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Germany has a much larger dubbing industry then the USA anime dubbing industry. In the US, you hear the same 10 or so voices over and over again (Johnny Yong Bosch!), and furthermore, the general custom in the Anglosphere is to eschew dubbing entirely. Germany, on the other hand, is really pro dubbing, and has a much more experienced ad larger voice acting/dubbing industry as a result.

[warita]

I have to support Dhomochevsky though.... what he is saying is right. It may sound to your english ear your are pronouncing it correctly, yet that is not really true.
The german pronouncation albeit not perfect comes a lot closer to what japanese sounds and hence it is easier to pronounce japanese for germans. Also german is written phnetically, just like romanji is... there is only one way how to read the letters and thats it. Fortunately it abides by the same rules as the romanji system.

[solomon]

America basically HAS NO dubbing industry cause we EXPORT everything.

I wouldn't say the general custom is to eschew dubbing entirely. Amongst HARD CORE FANS yes, but I easily remember back in the day when companies would licence shows and provide no english track.....they didn't sell.

[warita]

Originally Posted by solomon

America basically HAS NO dubbing industry cause we EXPORT everything.

I wouldn't say the general custom is to eschew dubbing entirely. Amongst HARD CORE FANS yes, but I easily remember back in the day when companies would licence shows and provide no english track.....they didn't sell.

I know a ton of people, who dont want subs.

My best friend says, he wants to just listen and not read all the time. Another says the japanese language outright annoys him. There might be also the factor that some people are slow at reading. I fint this attitude sad, for me listening to the japanese language is half the fun of watching anime.

[solomon]

I do agree that listening to the original language is part of the magic of any foriegn production.

Then again, you are in Vienna. Think about it, would everyone be willing to sit down and watch the Simpsons or 24 or (insert Hollywood export here) if it were only subbed?

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by warita

I have to support Dhomochevsky though.... what he is saying is right. It may sound to your english ear your are pronouncing it correctly, yet that is not really true.
The german pronouncation albeit not perfect comes a lot closer to what japanese sounds and hence it is easier to pronounce japanese for germans. Also german is written phnetically, just like romanji is... there is only one way how to read the letters and thats it. Fortunately it abides by the same rules as the romanji system.

I don't know, doesn't it really depend on the dialect of the German/English speaker?

I mean, there's a huge difference between the California-English you hear so frequently in dubs, and British English, Irish English or Australian English.

Likewise, some Germans would have pronounciations that are very similiar to japanese, while some will have pronounciation that are really different.

Just compare the accent of, say, Werner Von Braun (born in Possen, modern day poland, watch from 0:44), to Arnold Schwarznegger (born in styria, Austria).

Arnold Schwarznegger sounds fairly different, and in fact his accent is notably thicker, even though both men had lived in the US for similiar lengths of time.

So the accent of North East Germany, is less thick then the south, and perhaps shares more in common with English.

Likewise, there are likely to be substantial regional differences in how close german is to Japanese, and whether a german speaker will read Romaji correctly.

Of course, in all this, it's important to note, that German and English are fairly similiar languages when it comes to the sounds used, and Germans(particularly from the north) often sound weirdly american when speaking English.

[sneaker]

Originally Posted by solomon

America basically HAS NO dubbing industry cause we EXPORT everything.

I wouldn't say the general custom is to eschew dubbing entirely. Amongst HARD CORE FANS yes, but I easily remember back in the day when companies would licence shows and provide no english track.....they didn't sell.

Originally Posted by solomon

I do agree that listening to the original language is part of the magic of any foriegn production.

Then again, you are in Vienna. Think about it, would everyone be willing to sit down and watch the Simpsons or 24 or (insert Hollywood export here) if it were only subbed?

That's the point many Americans (or other native speakers of English) don't seem to get. The American film and TV industry is so big, that a large proportion of what we people in "dubbing countries" (France, Spain, Germany, Italy) watch is American. Americans watch a foreign movie every now and then with subtitles and then complain about how dubbing destroys the experience intended by the director. But imagine that TV often runs in the backgrounds or you just want to watch a lowbrow movie or show after a hard day at work, before going to sleep.
The average American supposedly watches some 4.5 hours TV per day. Imagine 80% of that were subtitled foreign stuff. (Though this is not really the right forum for that, with everyone watching fansubs all day long...)
Hell, Americans don't just dub stuff, they go all the way and produce a remake.


On the pronunciation thing: I tend to agree with Dhomochevsky. In the "A Laugh A Day" thread this video was posted, in it some American(?) guy trying to be funny while explaining how to pronounce the Japanese vowels. And they actually are pretty similar to how a German would pronounce the vowels, while the American reading is totally different. Another thing I often hear is the Japanese "U", which tends to be close to the German "Ü" in quite a few words. One of those sounds that Americans seem to have problems with.
That said, I'm sure both Americans and Germans have strong accents when trying to speak Japanese, even if it may be a bit easier for Germans.

@DonQuigleone
Yes, Germans have problems with the "th". It doesn't exist in their language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSdxqIBfEAw

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by sneaker

@DonQuigleone
Yes, Germans have problems with the "th". It doesn't exist in their language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSdxqIBfEAw

That was totally a guess on my part.

[Xenio]

i think vietnamese is most uselful to read romaji, it's pronunciation is extracly the same as romaji so i can pronoun it like i'm pronouning vietnamese. and it grammar is very similar to each other since both from asia

[Dhomochevsky]

After years of watching anime, obviously I can not speak japanese.
My english skills have improved from reading subtitles, I guess.
I did get something of an ear for the language though. Things like identifying a question and guessing of general context do work.
But without any basic education in japanese it is hopeless.

There is however another language I currently fail at, where I did get that basic education.
That would be french.
I learned french for 4 years in school. My grades were always bad though and after now 15 years of not using it at all, I can hardly remember much.
Listening to people speak french on TV however, sparks some unexpected glimps of (barely) understanding. It would be a shame to let those 4 years of learning go to waste.

So I would like to do an experiment: switch japanese for french and see if that leads to improvements anytime soon.

Now I only need material, which has french dub + english/german subs. It should be reasonably enjoyable, so I don't drop the experiment instantly.
Any suggestions?

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I don't know, doesn't it really depend on the dialect of the German/English speaker?

I mean, there's a huge difference between the California-English you hear so frequently in dubs, and British English, Irish English or Australian English.

Likewise, some Germans would have pronounciations that are very similiar to japanese, while some will have pronounciation that are really different.

Just compare the accent of, say, Werner Von Braun (born in Possen, modern day poland, watch from 0:44), to Arnold Schwarznegger (born in styria, Austria).

Arnold Schwarznegger sounds fairly different, and in fact his accent is notably thicker, even though both men had lived in the US for similiar lengths of time.

So the accent of North East Germany, is less thick then the south, and perhaps shares more in common with English.

Likewise, there are likely to be substantial regional differences in how close german is to Japanese, and whether a german speaker will read Romaji correctly.

Of course, in all this, it's important to note, that German and English are fairly similiar languages when it comes to the sounds used, and Germans(particularly from the north) often sound weirdly american when speaking English.

LOL !



Accents are hard to break ... it even comes out in how we write some times.

I'll give you a great example: You keep writing Then where you should write Than.

LOL!

I know exactly how you sound when you speak now... because sometimes our accents swap vowels.

My accent pits tends to put consonants against vowels where there should be non or drop them off completely or swap them out for another.

So for me

Then is "den"

Than is "dan"

Home is "ome"

Name is "Nyame"

However... my accent makes it somewhat easy for us to get the Japanese pronunciations (English speaking Caribbean)

Now... in relation to German... is it High German or Low German ? City or Urals ?

Kinda makes learning languages more fun doesn't it