2006-05-31, 00:48 | Link #21 | ||
guess
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2006-05-31, 01:34 | Link #22 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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The real answer is that different companies use a variety of means to determine popularity and chances in R1-land: some official and some unofficial.
Regardless of their means of "sniffing the winds" they're going to have a public policy stance of some sort that may or may not reflect what they actually do. This is true of almost any corporation. So its unwise to make sweeping generalizations when the "target population" won't tell what they really do. @guest: Though people should generally provide their sources, there's not a lot of incentive to waste their time when you have no other contribution to the discussion, eh? random aside: I will say Geneon lost an opportunity by not doing their own version of the bonus feature "guide to Shinto" that one of the fansub groups provided for Kamichu!
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2006-05-31, 01:47 | Link #23 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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They said it, so it must be true ... gawd, what a crock. Look at it this way: If a series has NO fansubs, it has no customer base and thus no chance in the market at all. Please give an example of a show WITHOUT fansubs which sold well. Quote:
Bittorrent numbers give labels some invaluable data about the popularity and market potential of a show. Not a number of people they lost DVD sales of. Quote:
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2006-05-31, 04:29 | Link #24 | ||
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2006-05-31, 08:00 | Link #25 |
Resident devil
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philippines
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I trust that what DLW says here can be trusted, at least from his perspective:
http://www.animeondvd.com/blog/?cat=9 Now I am a fan of these 'B' and 'C' titles. I am not talking Green Green Erolutions here, but Windy Tales. Stuff that doesn't speak to the masses ('A' titles) but instead speaks personally. The ironic thing is that back before The Flood, the anime market staple was precisely 'B' and 'C' titles (and often 'D' too) |
2006-05-31, 08:34 | Link #26 |
i am the mist
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Japan
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You know the very problem I have with this anime DVD industry?
They don't bring out their sales numbers. Rarely do newspapers or news sites count them, rarely do companies release their stats, and we only see a glimpse of it whenever it is a monster hit and it rises up along with mainstream DVDs in mainstream DVD sales charts. Without any "anime-specific" DVD sales figures, we cannot relatively "quantify" the impact of fansub downloads on it. Hence we can never factor in that specific anime's 'quality' as well.
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2006-05-31, 10:49 | Link #27 | |
trainee archangel
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Hentai? Tentacles?
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2006-05-31, 12:03 | Link #29 |
Resident devil
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philippines
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Before there was anime, porn was the #1 non-mainstream home video market in North America.
I wouldn't be surprised if the average hentai outsells the average anime, though seeded hentai torrents should be easier to find with a search engine. |
2006-05-31, 13:19 | Link #30 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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As I said long ago, finding a series which had no fansubs is VERY hard. Because at some point in time, someone has fansubbed at least an episode of everything. I actually believe Tactics which Manga just picked up had almost no fansubs and will therefore be interesting. Actually, I have given an example where the fansubs only got a handful of downloads and the series is now the #2 show on Toonami: Gash Bell. There is more than one way to create a fanbase you know. People who watch fansubs are less likely to buy a DVD in overall proportion to the people who watch the dubs. Anyway, you are talking about getting an actual number from a industry that doesnt hand out numbers. Infact... one of the time they have leads me into my next argument. Quote:
Also, your argument is self defeating. You claim they give invaluable data, and yet they are not to be judged for the number of sales. What if all 50k who download a show would never buy it ever? Quote:
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2006-05-31, 13:46 | Link #31 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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There's also a lot of contamination because most fansubs are those of shows that are *broadcast* on the air in Japan and therefore *free* to the viewing audience anyway (sharing the monitoring of signals without profit makes some corporate brains spin in confusion though). If airing these shows impacted DVD sales, you'd see lamentations to that effect within Japan - but they're a tool for upping the DVD sales. In effect (ignoring other legal quibbles), fansubs are the equivalent of broadcast airing in the states --- something that would never happen because the audience is too small for the networks to attract advertising and it saves the studio a lot of advertising dollars (any real argument against fansubs would have to factor that in).
Now... fansubbing of *DVDs* --- I readily concede might have an impact on potential sales of R1 DVDs and I try to avoid those unless I'm damn positive we'll never see them in R1 land. I'll happily watch the fansub hobby vanish once there's: 1) a dropping of region codes for complete market transparency (you know.. that globalization chant? It should be balanced for consumers too) 2) incorporation of multi-lingual subtitles in all initial releases of media (part of globalz internationalization) The only concern I have is that many countries think they have to "americanize" stuff for release here which is a shame because some of the attraction of certain properties is their cultural charm. I much prefer BBC series to most of the "americanized" reworks. Das Boot and Stalingrad (movies) worked so well *because* it had a German perspective (rather than having american/english actors). The recent Chinese films (Flying Daggers, Crouching Tiger..., Hero) are other examples. Hell, foreign *commercials* are damn funny... I wish they'd leave those in the fansubs.
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2006-05-31, 14:13 | Link #32 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
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lol, but this post is so~ offtopic and so is yours. |
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2006-05-31, 14:26 | Link #33 | ||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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And my main point is that publicity of a show is the key to DVD sales. Contrary to what ADV tries to make people believe with their propaganda I think it's evident that DVDs sell well when the show is KNOWN to people. Anime fans usually don't buy DVDs blindly anymore. R1 releases aren't "enablers" anymore which people use to watch an anime for the first time. No, in general, people buy R1 DVDs of shows they've seen before, and which they like so much that they want to own them. Preferably in a quality which is superior to the fansubs (or DVDrips) they've seen them before in. R1 DVDs are primarily _archive_ material nowadays. Of the last 10 R1 purchases I made, 6 are still shrinkwrapped. Only one of the "opened" ones was to really watch it. And I know that most of my anime friends do the very same things for the very same reasons. This is why I consider the ADV crocodile tears so hypocritical (or, if they're indeed genuine, a sign of their horrible lack of understanding of the anime scene - which I don't believe). Pointing to bittorrent download numbers and then saying "hey, so much more people downloaded it without buying it, and that's the evil fansubbers' fault" is idiotic. Out of 10 shows I watch on fansubs, I tend to buy 1-2 maximum, and I'm fulltime employed (and so, financially potent). I'd never dream of purchasing several shows - fansubs only help me select what I like. Now think of some schoolkids who wouldn't have the funds in the first place. Are all those "sales lost to fansubs"? Gimme a break. Quote:
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And guess what? It's the OPPOSITE! The DVD sales of shows on TV are among the BEST and HIGHEST. Which is one of the strongest bits of evidence in _my_ favor. These shows sell well BECAUSE people learned to love the shows, and REGARDLESS of the fact that they've seen it for free on TV before. Because it's a purchase out of love, for ARCHIVE reasons. They want to OWN the show they've seen before. If ADV's (and obviously your) reasoning was correct, the DVD sales of American TV shows should be in the crapper. Alas, that's not how it is. Quote:
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It's exactly as Geneon said. Fansubs help good shows and hurt bad ones. And _both_ of these effects are beneficial for the anime community. |
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2006-05-31, 14:27 | Link #34 | ||
tsubasa o sagashite
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1) It's not aired on a cable/satellite network with a subscription program 2) You live in Japan and may buy products advertised during the airing (outside of channels like NHK which broadcast overseas as well) Quote:
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2006-05-31, 14:46 | Link #35 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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2006-05-31, 15:18 | Link #36 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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Per the commercial, I just happen to *like* watching foreign commercials - they show some innovation or novelty I don't see much of here. As for it being "offtopic" since we're discussing sales of DVDs versus fansub "hits" so I think the constraints are pertinent to the discussion.
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2006-05-31, 15:31 | Link #38 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
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EDIT: Your wishes about globalization are completely irrational because region codes and keeping things (un)translated for specific regions is what brings the companies more money in the long run. The fansub scene is a relatively unimportant fraction of the whole population of anime fans, so, while you're being a minority amongst an already unimportant niché group of people, you're just really easy to neglect. And the companies serve the majority. First, milk out the Japanese, then, milk out the NA region for all its worth. I, who wants to see more anime shows produced, have no problems with that logic. |
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2006-05-31, 15:41 | Link #39 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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The point is not whether or not watching fansubs "contributes" anything, and neither did Vexx or anyone else here claim that he was in any way important. |
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2006-05-31, 16:17 | Link #40 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 67
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2) You're showing little understanding of trade cartel and price-fixing rules in the world markets under the WTO. The region coding is under attack from a number of countries due to its obvious price-fixing --- globalization works both ways whether the corporations like it or not. If the region coding vanishes, prices will stabilize under free market forces. Region coding and internationalization affect *all* entertainment, not just anime. 3) Try your canned arguments on someone to whom it applies. You're not even on the right channel in this discussion. 4) By my purchasing power, I'm a lot more important to a corporation than someone who spends nothing. Whats *your* purchasing value?
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Last edited by Vexx; 2006-05-31 at 16:27. |
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