Character Discussion - Rin

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Meiaminkbell

Going back to the honorable and noble gesture I still side with my original opinion. He did pussy-foot around Asa and there were several options that theoretically would have worked if he had performed them, and I suppose that makes his final choice less noble as the topic suggests. But Asa had, at best, minutes of life left before she was going to keel over and the sad fact is at the time he didn't have any other options. She ran away to die and any amount of time it would have taken to gather up anyone else could have been too late.

well, i think he waited a bit too much and she ran away. indeed, it wasn't really determined if she was really going to die right away or not.
I guess his options were decreasing a lot, due he learned this past a bit too late, but it is really weird that ama didn't try at least once, with rin as soon as she said it. (meh, poor script here)

Trust me, please trust me, I kept telling myself "Wouldn't it be better for your mother if you lived?" I kept telling my computer screen the same thing, kept telling Rin to ask her AND HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING! I'm not saying his self-sacrifice could have been prevented (and for a dramatic step the writers wouldn't have let it be) and it should have, but time was up and he had to take action. I'll concede that, his actions leading up to the balcony scene made the final scene less sentimental and honorable that what it could have been, but for what little time he had I admire his decision (I would have done things differently, but hey whatever brings in the cashola ).

you nailed the good spot.
but, it will be again another good part to discuss : was he really a bad character, or the script prevent him to use every option he could have?
i guess this is somewhat the both of these points >_>

And Klashikari, I don't know what relundenctant means but I love the word.

i'm sure you won't understand, since i pretty guess i created some "frenglish" once again...*sigh* this happens when you are mashing your brain with some fatigue : it ends with non sense ~~

as for this mention, i meant : kaede was already opposed to each rin's attempt of stopping her being so caring. (i'm even not sure if it makes sense either... seems like the language barrier is back now ~~)

[Meiaminkbell]

Oh I undertood what you meant, I just loved the word.

No offense bud.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Seriously though, the gamble didn't worth the risk.
it wasn't necesserily that he could die : if he failed, he would be dead, but Asa would LIVE ON GUILT !

Skyfall has already touched on it, but for clarity's sake... Rin's gamble was with his own life. He was truly ready to die. He didn't go with any premeditated step-by-step plan as to how he would get out from this self inflicted dillema. Nope. The gamble here was that if Asa would get the point why she should live on. He had to place his life on the stake to cross that point. The gamble, of course, paid extra dividend as it turned out Asa's magic was compatible enough to heal. Imagine if it was Nerine-chan's magic he was endeavoring to release. An already dying Rin would probably have gone into the darkness (or light - to be politically correct) with the words, "oh shit!" just before he was blown into smithereens. Best ending ever! Could it be the reason why Nerine wasn't the designated heroine of this show? I think I'm onto something.

this is where i can't understand this : what is the point to save someone if this person will probably hate theirself for good?

The alternate perspective would be Asa's wanting to live will be reignited as she finally will get the point, inspired by Rin's death: One doesn't live only for oneself. One lives for all the people that cares for one. In fact, Asa did get the point and was able to live with Rin because her magic didn't blow him up. How convenient for Asa.

while the result is attained, Rin didn't think about the possible different outcome : there is a limit between people selfishness, and frankly enough, i felt that Rin was really desesperate, but didn't think much of the other possibilities (i.e : calling EVERYONE and make an unilateral plea, and the addition of a plausible discussion with Ama)

Sacrificing self is always, always a desperate act. Besides, where her mother failed to convince her and was unable to show her why she should live.. why would Asa listen to a crowd?

to me, self sacrificing their very life must be something you should do as the last option, with guarantee it won't backfire on your original intention.

That is an interesting outlook! Human history disagrees with you of course.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Well, the fact that he made a choice a bit early might make him different from most male leads, but it does not make him "better" If we want an example of a good male lead who also makes his choice early, i will point in the direction of Haruhiko from Gift ~Eternal Rainbow~

Spoiler:

He confessed as early as ep3, which was a big shock for me 0_o ... it was dead obvious he liked the girl before that, but i was not expecting him to confess that early. I expected some more dancing around one another for a good while as usual

And he was a lot better at handling the problems that came in the form of the rejected girl. At least he put in real effort at solving the issue... not to mention it was not his fault that caused all the problems - they came from breaking a promise between the girls.

Not to mention this is one of the ultra-rare times when it is the guy taking the initiative and going after the girl, not the other way around

How dare you utter such blasphemy by referring to Gift Eternal Rainbow as a harem show? It was a love triangle where both of the girls wanted be the imotou of their onichan. I loved it! Btw, I enjoyed the male lead not because he was respectable, but because he was the reincarnated Asakura Jun from Da Capo. I also have a weak spot for all the Onichans' who are sporting kawaii imouto, and do not mind hitting on them.

I won't say Rin wasn't somewhat decisive... it is just that his character was poorly written. He ended up making choices that made little sense within Shuffle universe. It was just like the writer pulling the strings just to make the doll dance in the direction he wants to, even though the doll is supposed to have a mind of his own

I agree with the above notion wholeheartedly. Btw, Rin made another tough choice where he said something very nice to Kaede's ear to bring her out from her comatose state. Rin sure was decisive, wasn't he? Of course, he became Kaede-chan's bitch for a few years, but at least, he took it like a real champ.

Seriously, Shuffle is a big joke except for those couple of episodes' highlighting the heroine of the show, Kaede-chan.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by monir

Imagine if it was Nerine-chan's magic he was endeavoring to release. An already dying Rin would probably have gone into the darkness (or light - to be politically correct) with the words, "oh shit!" just before he was blown into smithereens. Best ending ever! Could it be the reason why Nerine wasn't the designated heroine of this show? I think I'm onto something.

In all honesty - i would much prefer Nerine trying to heal me Given her gentle nature one would assume she would be rather adept in this type of magic. That, and she has years of practice, unlike our green haired genius That is - if we assume that magic powers don't wary from user to user.

If they do wary - yay for convenience that Asa just happened to have healing powers (Though some ice magic like Primula uses would be nice as well - turn Rin in to a big cube of ice and deliver him to hospital where they can treat his wound (along with frostbite)

How dare you utter such blasphemy by referring to Gift Eternal Rainbow as a harem show? It was a love triangle where both of the girls wanted be the imotou of their onichan. I loved it! Btw, I enjoyed the male lead not because he was respectable, but because he was the reincarnated Asakura Jun from Da Capo. I also have a weak spot for all the Onichans' who are sporting kawaii imouto, and do not mind hitting on them.

Point to a part where i referred to Gift as a harem show and i will give you a cookie. Otherwise you own me one

And while on the Gift topic - yes, i absolutely loved it. If you have enough courage to dig trough the semi-war zone that became of the thread at the end, you would find that i was on the front lines defending the show (until i got fed up by repeating the same things over and over again and simply vacated the thread ).

Gift managed to achieve a lot working with little, and its pacing was top notch. Of course it is miles better than Shuffle (as well as the male lead there is better ), but the reason i chose Gift is because the situations are fairly similar, no ? There is a reason why Kirino was referenced to Kaede so much.

The situations for Haruhiko and Rin are fairly similar. Both have a childhood friend "taking care" of them and all, and in both cases the said friend is in love with them. In both cases these girls get the short end of the stick because a new one enters the playing field.

Now, unlike Rin, Haruhiko actually showed awareness to his surroundings. He was well aware that Kirino would be less than happy with him getting together with Riko, as was Riko herself, unlike Rin (and Asa for that matter) where Kaede didn't even register on his(their) radar, despite her being right under his nose. Heck, they even live in the same house, which is not the case for Haruhiko and Kirino, yet the later showed more concern over his friend, while the concern Rin showed towards Kaede amounts to a grand total of nothing).

And as i said - Kaede's descend in to darkness can be largely attributed to Rin, which is not the case for his Gift counterpart.

And while Shuffle! is a harem anime in the truest sense of the word, i believe that comparison with Gift is very valid, because the situations are very similar. And i think it is clare who is the better male lead of the two

And you are not the only one who has a soft spot for all the girls with Onii-chan complex As for Haruhiko = Jun... well, i didn't quite like how Jun was portrayed in DCSS - much more whiny and needy/lazy than in season 1. Asakura support squad taking turns in pampering him just because Nemu is out of town = LOL. At first i truly though she had died with all the support he was getting from the gang

[monir]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Point to a part where i referred to Gift as a harem show and i will give you a cookie. Otherwise you own me one

hehe.. ahem! Well, for starters you compared a harem male lead with another male lead from a different show and used the terminology, "better" to describe that male lead from that different show. I surmized that if Skyfall is comparing Rin-kun to Haruhiko-kun and saying Haruhiko-kun is a much better male lead than a another male lead who is from a harem show, then Skyfall must be referring to Haruhiku-kun as an exemplary harem lead. And if Haruhiko-kun is a harem lead, then Gift Enternal must be a harem show. I asked myself, why else Skyfall would compare a harem lead with another male lead if he isn't even from another harem genre? The rest is history. Darn it!

*Takes out check book and writes pay to the order of: Skyfall. Amount: several cookies. Reason: bribes to hush up Skyfall about a misunderstanding which entirely initiated by Skyfall for comparing a harem lead with a regular male lead who doesn't mind hitting on the kawaii imouto who is actually not an imouto by blood.

*Signs name.* There.

So is there any exemplary harem lead out there? I personally like to think an admirable harem lead can be found in Kanon .

Now, unlike Rin, Haruhiko actually showed awareness to his surroundings.

It is the curse of the genre that is harem. A harem show will limit most of it's character brutally and without mercy. The male lead will suffer the most as he will be lobotomied, castrated, and various other form of experiments will be run on to him to suit a plot direction.

And as i said - Kaede's descend in to darkness can be largely attributed to Rin, which is not the case for his Gift counterpart.

I agree, but I also suspect your reasoning could be different than mine even though we both reached the same conclusion. A shilling for your thoughts?

And while Shuffle! is a harem anime in the truest sense of the word, i believe that comparison with Gift is very valid, because the situations are very similar.

This I don't agree with, but I'd rather not drive this topic into off topicness.

And you are not the only one who has a soft spot for all the girls with Onii-chan complex As for Haruhiko = Jun... well, i didn't quite like how Jun was portrayed in DCSS - much more whiny and needy/lazy than in season 1. Asakura support squad taking turns in pampering him just because Nemu is out of town = LOL. At first i truly though she had died with all the support he was getting from the gang

I yet to have watched the 2nd season of Da Capo, but I read a lot of posts from that thread mostly because of Relentess who has defended the show with relentless exuberance to fend off all the nay sayers who dared putting down the 2nd season. Reading him made me convinced in several occasion that perhaps I should indeed give the 2nd season a try even though the negativism toward that particular season was coming from a wider margin of viewers, unlike the first season. In the end I didn't take the chance because what if the 2nd season tarnishes the image of one of my favorite male lead. I've really liked Jun's character from the first season. And I like Relentless too as he is one of my favorite posters.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by monir

hehe.. ahem! Well, for starters you compared a harem male lead with another male lead from a different show and used the terminology, "better" to describe that male lead from that different show. I surmized that if Skyfall is comparing Rin-kun to Haruhiko-kun and saying Haruhiko-kun is a much better male lead than a another male lead who is from a harem show, then Skyfall must be referring to Haruhiku-kun as an exemplary harem lead. And if Haruhiko-kun is a harem lead, then Gift Enternal must be a harem show. I asked myself, why else Skyfall would compare a harem lead with another male lead if he isn't even from another harem genre? The rest is history. Darn it!

*Takes out check book and writes pay to the order of: Skyfall. Amount: several cookies. Reason: bribes to hush up Skyfall about a misunderstandingwhich entirely initiated by Skyfall for comparing a harem lead with a regular male lead who doesn't mind hitting on the kawaii imouto who is actually not an imouto by blood.

*Signs name.* There.

Hehe, seems like we both misunderstood each other a bit I can see how you came to the conclusion that i could be viewing Gift as a harem show, but that was never my intention Calling Gift a harem show is like Calling Canvas 2 a harem show, which is anything but. Peace ? *munches down the cookie*

So is there any exemplary harem lead out there? I personally like to think an admirable harem lead can be found in Kanon .

Now, you might get lynched by some one for calling Kanon a harem show While some harem type setting can not be avoided due to its origin (lots of girls around), that is as far as it gets. (Which is the case for Gift as well btw ). Even calling it a romance anime is kinda stretching it in a way, because up until the very end of Shiori's arc romance there is almost non-existent.

But aye - if we compare Rin to Yuuichi... well, i don't have to type it out, do i ? Yuuichi is as good as it gets as a male lead (Note - i use term "male lead", not "harem lead" all the time ). His only mistake was neglecting Nayuki. But, unlike with Rin, who apparently became blind, I could understand why Yuuichi didn't notice it (With Nayuki putting up a strong front, and him having craploads of other problems to deal with).

Now if i would have to name a lead from a harem show that is better than Rin... urgh... i guess i will admit defeat Every other example that comes in to mind at the moment consists of hopeless losers where the only thing going for them is their kindness
No, wait - i know. Jun from Da Capo

It is the curse of the genre that is harem. A harem show will limit most of it's character brutally and without mercy. The male lead will suffer the most as he will be lobotomied, castrated, and various other form of experiments will be run on to him to suit a plot direction.

Aye, with this i agree completely. Hence my previous statement that Rin seems to be jerked around via strings instead of moving on his own The more i think about it, the more he seems like a case of a poorly written character, rather than a "bad" human being. (Lets make him blind to Kaedes existence just to let some angst build up).

It just seems that these writers are not capable of writing themselves out of a paper bag. Which might be the case, if you are incapable of producing a climax for your own god damn story without butchering certain character intelligence and perception, and have to start pulling them by the strings. Rin - clueless and damnable excuse for a male, or a butchered character due to writer incompetence ?

I agree, but I also suspect your reasoning could be different than mine even though we both reached the same conclusion. A shilling for your thoughts?

Spoiler for Gift:

What caused Kirino's higurashi mode was the fact that she found out that Riko had broken the promise they made several years ago, which made her believe that Riko had "won" using unfair means. (Which did not matter at all, because Haruhiko didn't even know about the Gift, but Kirino was too pissed/heartbroken/hurt/something to come to that conclusion)

While she was heartbroken by Haruhiko's choice, she was willing to accept it without holding a grudge... until Riko's Gift came in to play. And even then Haruhiko was not neglecting her (nor was Riko for that matter).

Reason for Kirino's downfall - broken childhood promise. (mostly Riko's fault)

As for Kaede, the reason for her descend in to darkness was the fact that Rin was out right ignoring and neglecting her. He simply turned a blind eye to her (as did Asa for that matter). At one point she said she would be fine as long as she could do things for Rin, but he didn't allow her even that much - she ends up throwing out the food she cooks for him.

The fact that Asa and Rin showed up at her house acting all cute and cuddly right before her very eyes (And still ignoring her presence) certainly did not help matters either. (Riko and Haruhiko certainly didn't put up the lovely-dovely act in front of Kirino, no ? )

Reason for Kaede's downfall - out right being ignored despite being right there in front of Rin's eyes despite working her arse of for him. (mostly Rin's fault)

This I don't agree with, but I'd rather not drive this topic into off topicness.

Well, there is the difference of Rin having Nerine and Sia gunning for his behind as well, but i don't think it matters that much. I don't think these two had a place in Rin's equation when he was figuring out how to deal with his Asa/Kaede problem. (Assuming he ever pondered about it in the 1st place... because the best answers he came up with were slitting his wrists and running away from home ).

...well, it also helped Haruhiko's case that he knew where his heart stands from day one, which is not a luxury Rin could have

I yet to have watched the 2nd season of Da Capo, but I read a lot of posts from that thread mostly because of Relentess who has defended the show with relentless exuberance to fend off all the nay sayers who dared putting down the 2nd season. Reading him made me convinced in several occasion that perhaps I should indeed give the 2nd season a try even though the negativism toward that particular season was coming from a wider margin of viewers, unlike the first season. In the end I didn't take the chance because what if the 2nd season tarnishes the image of one of my favorite male lead. I've really liked Jun's character from the first season. And I like Relentless too as he is one of my favorite posters.

If i would have watched the show as it was airing, i would have been right up there defending the show. I have skimmed trough the thread, and i can not understand why there are people who dislike it.

Most are probably Kotori fans who felt cheated, because the first eps do give of a vibe that this could be a Kotori-centric season, but she gets pushed aside soon after Asia arrives... and especially Nemu, which takes the focus away from her completely. And when Sakura makes a comeback, you can imagine who are the characters that get the focus

... that, and they hate Nemu. (As do i... Die Nemu, Die!!!... though she did get some redeeming points in second season with the way she acted towards Sakura), but that is not going to stop me from enjoying a show Don't worry - your image of him won't be ruined much... and either way that should not be reason to postpone a show In the end he will not differ much from the Jun of 1st season.
In short - go watch second season, you won't regret it.