Sexuality

[Fome]

Well, if gender is supposed to be subjective, then I'll concede the point.

I still don't think that just watching other women can give one an idea of what being a woman is about.

*facepalm*

It's the sociological definition I'm using here, dude. My definition of "gender" is about as objective as it gets.

And what do you mean "how does one know that he should self-identify as a male or female"? synaesthetic and her kind are proof enough that there are people out there whose gender identification are at odds with their biological makeup. Really, just because you don't have to experience that kind of conflict about your own identity doesn't mean such conflicts doesn't exist.

I meant to say that the conception of gender itself is too subjective, not that your definition was too wishy-washy (sorry for the confusion). I'm pretty much saying that people don't have a good enough grasp of what it means to be the opposite sex to know that they should be another gender.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Fome

I meant to say that the conception of gender itself is too subjective, not that your definition was too wishy-washy (sorry for the confusion). I'm pretty much saying that people don't have a good enough grasp of what it means to be the opposite sex to know that they should be another gender.

Oh, right.

I simply think it's because most people don't have a good grasp of the difference in meaning between the terms "sex" and "gender" though, it's that simple. And really, when sex IS gender for the majority of people, one can hardly blame them for confusing the two most of the time.

[C.A.]

The difference between sex and gender has been around, at least I know my teacher differentiates them with her gender study knowledge.

And, there's a reason I separate both terms in 'Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!'

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Fome

Well, if gender is supposed to be subjective, then I'll concede the point.

I still don't think that just watching other women can give one an idea of what being a woman is about.



I meant to say that the conception of gender itself is too subjective, not that your definition was too wishy-washy (sorry for the confusion). I'm pretty much saying that people don't have a good enough grasp of what it means to be the opposite sex to know that they should be another gender.

I don't know..To me, the only difference lies in their body structures. If you fix that, like in Synae's case, you'll have an acceptable female average.

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Oh, right.

I simply think it's because most people don't have a good grasp of the difference in meaning between the terms "sex" and "gender" though, it's that simple. And really, when sex IS gender for the majority of people, one can hardly blame them for confusing the two most of the time.

But don't you think the socialogical definition of "gender" allows for two people to have completely different ideas for what a girl or boy is like, but mistake them for the same idea? I'll demonstrate with a drastically simplified example. Let's say, in my culture, the male gender is supposed to be submissive, and for your culture, the male gender is supposed to be aggressive. And let's say we both are naturally submissive people. Wouldn't that lead me to think that my gender is male, while you would think that your gender is not male?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Fome

But don't you think the socialogical definition of "gender" allows for two people to have completely different ideas for what a girl or boy is like, but mistake them for the same idea? Let's say, in my culture, the male gender is supposed to be submissive, and for your culture, the male gender is supposed to be aggressive. And let's say we both are naturally submissive people. Wouldn't that lead me to think that my gender is male, while you would think that your gender is not male?

Society doesn't define and is unrelated to gender. Do you understand the numbers of varieties of males your dealing with here?

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Society doesn't define and is unrelated to gender. Do you understand the numbers of varieties of males your dealing with here?

I understand that. I'm just trying to illustrate the subjectivity by using an imaginary world in which there are no varieties.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Fome

But don't you think the socialogical definition of "gender" allows for two people to have completely different ideas for what a girl or boy is like, but mistake them for the same idea? Let's say, in my culture, the male gender is supposed to be submissive, and for your culture, the male gender is supposed to be aggressive. And let's say we both are naturally submissive people. Wouldn't that lead me to think that my gender is male, while you would think that your gender is not male?

Oh, I get where you're coming from now.

Again, two different things, except different this time. I was talking about gender identity, but what you had been talking about all this time is the concept of gender norms. The difference here is that I'm talking about individual self-identification, but taking this example you brought up here....using your example, the gender norm in your culture is supposed to be submissive, while the gender norm in my culture is supposed to be aggressive. So, if we are both submissive people, it's the people in your society who regards you as masculine according to the gender norms of your society, while it's the people in my society who regards me as feminine according to the gender norms of my society.

What we have here are two related, but rather different concepts.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Fome

I understand that. I'm just trying to illustrate the subjectivity by using an imaginary world in which there are no varieties.

Subjectivity or Opinions do not define gender. It's all in body structure.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Society doesn't define and is unrelated to gender. Do you understand the numbers of varieties of males your dealing with here?

Unfortunately, you're wrong there, kid. Societies do define gender norms; where do you think such excerpts as "boys don't cry" and "girls don't get rough" come from?

Originally Posted by Cipher

Subjectivity or Opinions do not define gender. It's all in body structure.

....I should go on another tirade about the difference in meanings in the terms "sex" and "gender", but you probably didn't mean it, so I'll let this slide. -_-

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Oh, I get where you're coming from now.

Again, two different things, except different this time. I was talking about gender identity, but what you had been talking about all this time is the concept of gender norms. The difference here is that I'm talking about individual self-identification, but taking this example you brought up here....using your example, the gender norm in your culture is supposed to be submissive, while the gender norm in my culture is supposed to be aggressive. So, if we are both submissive people, it's the people in your society who regards you as masculine according to the gender norms of your society, while it's the people in my society who regards me as feminine according to the gender norms of my society.

What we have here are two related, but rather different concepts.

Ok that's an interesting distinction. But if gender norms and gender identity are independent concepts, that suggest that anyone can assign themselves a gender identity at their own whim. That means that, even if society says my submissiveness is feminine, I can just say "screw that" and conclude that I am masculine. I would think that gender identities have to be at least based on gender norms.

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Subjectivity or Opinions do not define gender. It's all in body structure.

Yo man, you can't just jump in like that. I AGREE with you that body structure is the best way to make distinctions, and that gender (if you leave out body structure) is meaningless tautology. I'm trying to demonstrate my point step by step by first demonstrating that the idea of "gender" is too tenuous to be of any use.

Damn, I wanted to combine these two posts, sorry

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Fome

Ok that's an interesting distinction. But if gender norms and gender identity are independent concepts, that suggest that anyone can assign themselves a gender identity at their own whim. That means that, even if society says my submissiveness is feminine, I can just say "screw that" and conclude that I am masculine. I would think that gender identities have to be at least based on gender norms.

Indeed, gender identities generally are based on gender norms; they are separate, but interrelated concepts. If anything I said suggested otherwise, I apologize for any deficiency in my explanations.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Fome

Yo man, you can't just jump in like that. I AGREE with you that body structure is the best way to make distinctions, and that gender (if you leave out body structure) is meaningless tautology. I'm trying to demonstrate my point step by step by first demonstrating that the idea of "gender" is too tenuous to be of any use.

Damn, I wanted to combine these two posts, sorry

Pardon me, I'm not that interested in the subject but I'm interested in talking so what I end up with is half-baked replies. Yeah, Gender entirely depends on subjectivity----wow, just how many types of males and females are there? 6.07 billion types. Ok, I just realized how I'm so unaware of what you're trying to say.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Indeed, gender identities generally are based on gender norms; they are separate, but interrelated concepts. If anything I said suggested otherwise, I apologize for any deficiency in my explanations.

What are gender identities? The "gender" part there kinda confuses me. I think it should be "sex identity"....there are no gender norms..sex norms perhaps...or gender personality norms

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Cipher

What are gender identities? The "gender" part there kinda confuses me. I think it should be "sex identity"....there are no gender norms..sex norms perhaps...or gender personality norms

....I already fuckin' laid out the difference between "sex" and "gender" just now. You may actually want to pick up the skill of reading in favour of your usual tactic of spouting out your usual "genius" one-liners.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Miko Miko

What is your sexuality?

Do you think it matters what sexuality you are?

Have you ever been bullied for your sexuality?

I think sexuality is a very important subject, so Discuss.

And to be honest I am confused about my sexuality at the moment..

Yes, it's important. Ideally we would all be at peace with ourselves and know ourselves so that we could move forward with no confusion or conflict in our minds. Sex and sexuality are an important part of the human existence, as well.

You're young, and your sexual feelings may still be forming. Don't worry too much if you're unsure of what your orientation is. Keep an open mind and pay attention to your thoughts and feelings.

As for synaesthetic, I hope things turn around for you soon. I will remark that your gender identity issue is a rather interesting one, as your sexual orientation matches your biological makeup. It sounds like you were put through trauma and abuse, probably all throughout your childhood. Do you think that you're rejecting your physical masculinity as a result of some past trauma? Do you have resentment against males in general? (You don't have to answer if it's too personal. I'm not trying to play psychologist here, I'm just curious.)

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

....I already fuckin' laid out the difference between "sex" and "gender" just now. You may actually want to pick up the skill of reading in favour of your usual tactic of spouting out your usual "genius" one-liners.

Gender Identity only depends on Individual Perception. But Individual Perception can and will be influenced by society's perception. that is...Gender Identity can depend on Society but not necessarily---depending on the individual. Gender Identity are not based on Gender Norms but are based on Gender Perception which are not entirely based on Gender norms.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

As for synaesthetic, I hope things turn around for you soon. I will remark that your gender identity issue is a rather interesting one, as your sexual orientation matches your biological makeup. It sounds like you were put through trauma and abuse, probably all throughout your childhood. Do you think that you're rejecting your physical masculinity as a result of some past trauma? Do you have resentment against males in general? (You don't have to answer if it's too personal. I'm not trying to play psychologist here, I'm just curious.)

It's possible but unlikely. The physical and mental abuse from family members came in response to the rejection of masculinity, not the other way around. When I was very young, my family situation was not quite so poor.

As I grew older and understood more of my own situation, expressing it outwardly, the abuse began in response, as a sort of punishment against a male who would dare give up masculinity in favor of the "inferior" femininity. (This is pretty much exactly how my family viewed it, too).

I don't resent all men. I actually have a number of male friends whom I am very happy knowing and being a part of their lives. But, honestly... I'm more than a little afraid of men I don't know well. My life experiences with transphobic individuals, largely men, in the South hasn't exactly helped with this irrational fear. Not to mention almost getting killed while staying in a Salvation Army-run homeless shelter (which forcibly placed me in the male segregated section).

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Even when i feel terrible hearing your story, seeing you still can be here and talking about it in a nonchalant manner make me feel better =)

Can't help you anything from here, but please keep up with your optimism. You won't have to follow the society to success in life

PS: your gender identity, biological gender and love interest are interesting through. I understand what you means cause I am also in your position for many occasions

It's a defense mechanism. I get flippant and sarcastic when I'm really worried. ^^;

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Gender Identity only depends on Individual Perception. But Individual Perception can and will be influenced by society's perception. that is...Gender Identity can depend on Society but not necessarily---depending on the individual.

....I don't even see where you're going with this, if at all.

Whatever. Time to sleep.