[Manga] Chapter 467 Spoiler Discussion

[Cub-Sama]

This is freaking Madara we are talking about so the whole thing with him and Nagato wanting different things is stupid, Madara could have lied and said he wanted what Nagato wanted and gave him the tablet so that he could find out what he wanted to find out. Killed Nagato when he stopped being useful to him and continued out the eye of the moon plan and as for him blurting out his plan, for all you know it could all be a lie to cover up his real plan or to trick everyone to follow his real plan, Madara himself is a walking Xanatos Gambit

[justavisitor]

@pizzajincuuriki
But Madara telling good guys the plan has one bad effect: Now good guys know Madara needs every kyubi to work!!!

Before Madara tells good guys his evil plan, none of the good guys know it's that serious..they know it's something real bad, but they try to defend the best they can..now they know it's that serious, they can come up a new method/jutsu (if madara can make his jutsu all the way to the moon, there is nothing that jutsu can't do ) to destroy one kyubi and Madara will end up crying

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Before Madara tells good guys his evil plan, none of the good guys know it's that serious..they know it's something real bad, but they try to defend the best they can..now they know it's that serious, they can come up a new method/jutsu (if madara can make his jutsu all the way to the moon, there is nothing that jutsu can't do ) to destroy one kyubi and Madara will end up crying

Why do you assume they didn't think that it's that "serious" ?
They already knew about akatsuki taking all the demons and also Nagato leaked information about the weapon of mass destruction, they also know that Madara is the leader. What they didn't know is that Madara does not want to create a super-weapon to destroy countries but he wants to cast an eternal global genjutsu. But they don't know anything about how can all that be achieved, so they can't block Madara from using the sealing statue or whatever. They also know that Madara is immortal, so they might delay him but they'll eventually die and Madara will win because he has no time limit like simple humans.

Madara leaked only one information, he didn't know that raikage was assuming that his brother is gone. However this information leak might help Madara: raikage will find KillerBee faster then akatsuki can, akatsuki just has to wait for that and ambush them and capture KillerBee.

Madara declaring war to the whole world at least is not more dumbass then fighting against Konoha+Hashirama
Too bad he didn't learn anything from his past mistakes and now instead of working in the shadows to destabilize the world order he is doing the opposite

[justavisitor]

probably "serious" is not a good word to use in here
but now good guys know what it takes to win: destroy one kyubi and it's game over for Madara
Of course, I doubt they have the ability to do that, but if I were Madara I wouldn't risk that small probability...

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

probably "serious" is not a good word to use in here
but now good guys know what it takes to win: destroy one kyubi and it's game over for Madara
Of course, I doubt they have the ability to do that, but if I were Madara I wouldn't risk that small probability...

First of all, they need to destroy one bijuu, not kyubi.^^
Secondly, the akatsukis defeated bijuus on their own, so why couldn´t there be others able to do it?
But who knows, maybe Madara is planning on inserting all the 7 collected bijuus into himself, forming a one-man army or something, although I doubt more than one bijuu can exist in one host.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Now Itachi has a secret too: Madara does not know that he gave a secret power to Naruto

Lol, finding out what that power is, is one of the things i'm most looking forward to. Kishi better not dissapoint

On a side note, I just re-read that chapter and at the end of it sasuke says he's going to "ressurect the Uchiha in [his own] way"

Just wondering, if Sasuke and some unlucky gal had a baby, wouldn't that possibly baby have the Sharingan? Blood-lines and lineages in the Naruto world seem to be passed down even if the parents aren't from the same clan. Eg Senjuness passing to Naruto through his the 4th. Doesn't that mean you could have a whole bunch of Sharingan users again if Sasuke or Madara hit the sack?

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Lol, finding out what that power is, is one of the things i'm most looking forward to. Kishi better not dissapoint

On a side note, I just re-read that chapter and at the end of it sasuke says he's going to "ressurect the Uchiha in [his own] way"

Just wondering, if Sasuke and some unlucky gal had a baby, wouldn't that possibly baby have the Sharingan? Blood-lines and lineages in the Naruto world seem to be passed down even if the parents aren't from the same clan. Eg Senjuness passing to Naruto through his the 4th. Doesn't that mean you could have a whole bunch of Sharingan users again if Sasuke or Madara hit the sack?

Not really sure about that. There were even some Uchiha clan members who could not awaken the Sharingan because there were other Uchiha clan members that were getting it on with people outside of the clan. The bloodline was getting lost because of it and by Sasuke's, or even Obito's era, only what were considered "elite" Uchiha could use the Sharingan.

[Haak]

Is anyone else dissapointed with how Madara actually fixed everything for Naruto and Sasuke by clearing the whole "Sasuke had murdered Killer Bee" thing?

It added to plot and made things complicated. And now it's gone.

[gunrik]

Now i understand madara moon's eye plan, wasn't expecting it, only thing opened is what strength will madara use to create the war, to capture the remaining beasts, in order to obtain the tenth tailed beast...

[Alchemist007]

Pretty sure Mr.Moonmaker is facepalming

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Haak

Is anyone else dissapointed with how Madara actually fixed everything for Naruto and Sasuke by clearing the whole "Sasuke had murdered Killer Bee" thing?

It added to plot and made things complicated. And now it's gone.

Sasuke is no bad guy, no matter what people say! How can you insult Sasuke!? Naruto will never understand a thing, because Sasuke actually didn't kill anyone and once again, he was attacked. He's actually acting pretty evil, but you can't blame him for killing anyone. He even attempts to kill people, but they survive. Now what, is he simply incompetent?
We've to to take it into consideration. He didn't even kill Deidara... he blew himself up. And he didn't kill Orochimaru... he was banned into another dimension by Itachi.

Naruto didn't kill Pain either, Nagato sacrificed himself to revive others.

And when Sakura was about to kill Sasori, he deliberately stepped into Chiyo's trap.

Remember, Haku was killed by Kakashi, Zabusa was killed by the fellowmen of this rich mafia guy... Gato?

I just needed to mention it. None of them has ever killed someone, am I wrong?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Sasuke is no bad guy, no matter what people say! How can you insult Sasuke!? Naruto will never understand a thing, because Sasuke actually didn't kill anyone and once again, he was attacked. He's actually acting pretty evil, but you can't blame him for killing anyone. He even attempts to kill people, but they survive. Now what, is he simply incompetent?

If anything that makes it even complicated and interesting.

Hey i didn;t say it because I hate Sasuke. It's the same reason i said I thought Tsunade should die.

I just think that way. I can't help it.

But yeah, Kishimoto is good at avoiding complicated things like no one killing anyone else. And there's supposed to be a cycle of hatred...

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Haak

If anything that makes it even complicated and interesting.

Hey i didn;t say it because I hate Sasuke. It's the same reason i said I thought Tsunade should die.

I just think that way. I can't help it.

But yeah, Kishimoto is good at avoiding complicated things like no one killing anyone else. And there's supposed to be a cycle of hatred...

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I also want to see people die, not because I hate them, but because I want to see people die.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I also want to see people die, not because I hate them, but because I want to see people die.

...

Er..you mean characters right?

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Haak

...

Er..you mean characters right?

No, I mean people, but characters is fine aswell.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Madara behaving like a real ninja is a good reason for all what you told. Too bad that he ruined all this in the current chapter. I mean he has just now told all his secret plans to his biggest rivals. So after reading the chapter i think it's possible to assume that if he tells the ultimate secret to his biggest enemies then he could have told that same secret to his biggest and strongest ally.

Who says this is the ultimate secret? Each iteration of the Uchiha story gets more and more complex, so what is to say that this story doesn't simply lead to yet another story?

And, yet again, Nagato and Madara's viewpoints were so different, that I simply do not see how Nagato could have agreed to work with a man who was going to use the bijuu to recreate an even more powerful Bijuu. Added to that, Madara and Nagato were never real allies. At best, Madara treated Nagato the same way Madara is treating Sasuke: a pawn who only requires a certain amount of information in order to weild him. It seems far more likely that Madara simply never told Nagato about the tablet, than for Madara to have told Nagato about the tablet and then simply trust that whatever Nagato tells him is the truth.

And, once more, when exactly would Madara have snuck into Konoha with Nagato in order to read the tablet? Nagato had never implied (during his invasion) that he had snuck in before, and he certainly doesn't seem like a person who would sneak anywhere (maybe you ahve forgotten the frontal invasion ending with a big bang...subtlety is not Nagato's strong point). Added to that, Sasuke was the one who withdrew the tablet from the Uchiha Grounds, so Madara couldn't have stolen it anytime during the invasion. And now, Madara confirms that the tablet is still in the Uchiha Headquarters. So, there is really no known time in which Nagato could have read the tablet and then told or not told Madara what is on it.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's all a good possible, but why did Kishimoto bother to let Madara say that sentence about the sharingan -> MS -> rinnegan reading ability if that has no purpose or meaning? My assumption was that it's exactly the order of level at which the Uchiha guys could understand the secret: Sasuke -> Itachi -> Madara/Nagato.

And where does the EMS fit into all of this?

That being said, the tablet becomes doubly important if Madara never actually finsihed it. Specifically, the route to victory could ba found in the tablet and Naruto could seek out Konan again to see if there are any functioning Rinnegan eyes (or a way of gaining the Rinnegan) in order to read the tablet, etc. The story arc writes itself (though I really do not want Naruto to have any bloodlines). So, Madara mentioning the Rinnegan could act as foreshadowing.

Added to that, it could be a bluff. Madara corroborates his own story by claiming that someone with a power he doesn't have also read it and told Madara what was on it. So, mentioning the Rinnegan becomes simply a way of adding creedence to his story.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Madara not using high level jutsu is proof of him not being able to fight the kages and entire villages like he did when he attacked Konoha+Hashirama for the first time. And since he knows a lot of jutsu we can assume that the limiting factor is low chakra or some other disability of his body. The level of chakra is very important, we see right now that Sasuke was almost killed because he ran out of chakra. Fighting one ninja is easy for an Uchiha but when fighting 4 kages or even entire villages then chakra and stamina are the most important things.

Sarutobi used one high level jutsu in his fight...does that mean he isn't Kage-level (since he clearly did not have enough to spam his techniques)? Kakashi seldom uses any "big" jutsus, so does that mean he is not Kage-level? Danzou has never done anything, so does that mean he isn't Kage Level? etc. Simply because Madara has never used a big technique doesn't mean he can't, and when you realize that he can use regular/elemental ninjutsu, the level of his techniques becomes less important, especially when you realize that he has never sought to kill anyone he has fought (and he hasn't fought anyone yet...).

Who knows what Madara's weakness is, but simply because he says he is weak does not equal lack of chakra. For all we know, Madara could claim he is weak because one of his eyes is destroyed (as many have theorized in the past). Hell, maybe that eye was the one that makes it possible to use Amaterasu or Susano'o, in which case Madara would be severely weakened.

Added to that, have you forgotten that Madara claimed that he was still alive because his "chakra was strong", something he said he shared with Sasuke?

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

He was burning, then after some pictures of burning he just vanished into the darkness of the cave, and a moment later he was back as if nothing happened to him. By sucking in the flames with his eye he wouldn't have restored his body and clothes to 100%. Or Madara has some spare clothes in the other dimension?

Karin and Kirabi were burning as well, but once the Amaterasu was withdrawn, they weren't even singed.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's what i don't understand, what's the reason for your assumption? Just the eyes of the 10 tailes in this chapter, while it was standing behind the rikudo sennin? My assuption is the opposite: when someone controls a demon or boss summon the special eye of that ninja is shown in the eye of the demon/summon: Sasuke's sharingan eye on Manda, Madara's eye on kyuubi, the rinnegan eye on the boss summons of Pain. So the eye of the 10 tails was such because the rikudo sennin was controlling it.

The only image we have seen of the Rikudou's eyes implied that he only had the Rinnegan, so following your logic we should have only seen the Rinnegan eyes on the Jyuubi (as we saw on Pain's summons). But, we see a 9-tomoed Rinnegan instead. So, something else is going on here.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The eye itself did seem like a combination of sharingan dots and rinnegan circles. However there were 10 dots (i'm counting the one in the center of the eye), i guess a symbol of 10 tails. So we might say that Uchiha's demonic power partly comes from the demon and the inhuman level of Senju body power is from the demon too. But that does not mean that rikodu sennin's rinnegan is from the demon. We could say that Uchiha eye's origin if both the rinnegan and the 10 tails demon. The rinnegan gives the ninja abilities and the demon gives the "sinister chakra".

Looking over the image again, while the Rikudou's eyes are not seen (so it is unclear if the Rikudou Sennin has the Rinnegan or not), we can see the little "horns" on the Rikudou Sennin's head. So, there might be more going on with the ol'Sage than previously suspected.

[AuroraFlash]

Madara could never have read the tablet because the tablet can only be read with Sharingan and reveals more details the more your sharingan envelops.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

And, yet again, Nagato and Madara's viewpoints were so different, that I simply do not see how Nagato could have agreed to work with a man who was going to use the bijuu to recreate an even more powerful Bijuu.

Just because they worked together it does not mean they had the same reasons and same goals. Just look at Sasuke's case, Madara can use him despite it should be obvious to Sasuke that the Uchiha massacre is caused by Madara, since he was the one who attacked the village using the 9 tailed demon. So even if Nagato read a part of the secret for Madara that does not mean Nagato was aware of Madara's intentions.

Originally Posted by james0246

Nagato had never implied (during his invasion) that he had snuck in before, and he certainly doesn't seem like a person who would sneak anywhere (maybe you ahve forgotten the frontal invasion ending with a big bang...subtlety is not Nagato's strong point). Added to that, Sasuke was the one who withdrew the tablet from the Uchiha Grounds, so Madara couldn't have stolen it anytime during the invasion. And now, Madara confirms that the tablet is still in the Uchiha Headquarters. So, there is really no known time in which Nagato could have read the tablet and then told or not told Madara what is on it.

Madara can go wherever he wants, and he can carry with himself whoever he wants. In this chapter he has carried away both Sasuke and Karin in an instant while he was surrounded by 4 kages. Also he doesn't have to teleport Nagato to the secret stone, he can teleport the stone to Nagato and then back to the secret place. Or he can even alter the secret by adding fake parts, either to fool Nagato or to fool Sasuke or Itachi. One thing he cannot do is to read a part that cannot be read without the rinnegan, and he had Nagato under his control...

Originally Posted by james0246

And where does the EMS fit into all of this?

EMS is just a form of MS, you assume that EMS can read the secret that was meant to be for the rinnegan?

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, the tablet becomes doubly important if Madara never actually finsihed it. Specifically, the route to victory could ba found in the tablet and Naruto could seek out Konan again to see if there are any functioning Rinnegan eyes (or a way of gaining the Rinnegan) in order to read the tablet, etc. The story arc writes itself (though I really do not want Naruto to have any bloodlines). So, Madara mentioning the Rinnegan could act as foreshadowing.

I hope this manga does not turn into pokemon. Collect all the eyes!
There's already too much eye stealing for my taste, i mean this kage summit had too many people with stole eyes, it was almost ridiculous.

Originally Posted by james0246

Added to that, it could be a bluff. Madara corroborates his own story by claiming that someone with a power he doesn't have also read it and told Madara what was on it. So, mentioning the Rinnegan becomes simply a way of adding creedence to his story.

This is just shonen manga. We already had some theories but mostly they never came true because they were too complex for a shonen manga.

Originally Posted by james0246

Sarutobi used one high level jutsu in his fight...does that mean he isn't Kage-level (since he clearly did not have enough to spam his techniques)?

So you take as example a ninja who died in his battle only because he ran out of chakra and stamina? I guess that's not the best example
I did see Sarutobi use several kage level moves during the fight, he used the death god jutsu, stopped Orochimaru's summoning jutsu, did fight against 3 ninja with taijutsu, summoned a boss animal and used high level earth and fire jutsu.

Originally Posted by james0246

Who knows what Madara's weakness is, but simply because he says he is weak does not equal lack of chakra. For all we know, Madara could claim he is weak because one of his eyes is destroyed (as many have theorized in the past). Hell, maybe that eye was the one that makes it possible to use Amaterasu or Susano'o, in which case Madara would be severely weakened.

I didn't say that the only one explanation is low chakra, but surely that is one of the reasons if someone's body is severely damaged and is 90 years old.
The idea of not being able to use MS jutsu because having only one eye is nice, but then why didn't he simply transplant Itachi's eyes into himself?

Originally Posted by james0246

Added to that, have you forgotten that Madara claimed that he was still alive because his "chakra was strong", something he said he shared with Sasuke?

Telling that you are immortal because of "strong" chakra is bullshit.

Originally Posted by james0246

Karin and Kirabi were burning as well, but once the Amaterasu was withdrawn, they weren't even singed.

It was the demon burning, KillerBee was hiding inside the monster. Karin's clothes were burnt on her back, Sasuke was fast enough to save her but not the clothes she was wearing.

Originally Posted by james0246

The only image we have seen of the Rikudou's eyes implied that he only had the Rinnegan, so following your logic we should have only seen the Rinnegan eyes on the Jyuubi (as we saw on Pain's summons). But, we see a 9-tomoed Rinnegan instead. So, something else is going on here.

Check out chapter 363 page 11: it's Manda's eyes mixed with a sharingan. Maybe Orochimaru's sharingan would have looked that way
But i agree that it works both ways, for example when Naruto uses the kyuubi power his eyes turn into kyuubi eyes, in sage mode it was a mixed sage-kyuubi eye. So if the rikudo sennin sealed the demon in himself and used it's power his simple rinnegan should turn into rinnegan with tomoes.

Originally Posted by james0246

Looking over the image again, while the Rikudou's eyes are not seen (so it is unclear if the Rikudou Sennin has the Rinnegan or not), we can see the little "horns" on the Rikudou Sennin's head. So, there might be more going on with the ol'Sage than previously suspected.

Jiraiya had little horns too, part of his special headband. I thinks its simply a drawing and has no meaning.

[narutojm]

alot is being revealed about the sage of six paths

[Methuselah]

The only thing I'm baffled with is why now... Why couldn't he execute his plans generations ago. I mean... the Ninja world has been through how many major wars? Atasuki was even hired during one of the wars.. *For funding??? Why would they need money? The members seems to have their own blood-lust ambitions.