The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[Ithekro]

Then what?
It wouldn't be Kyon anymore.

If Haruhi goes down the mind control route, then she doesn't have a boyfriend; she has a slave.

Haruhi doesn't want just ANY guy to be her boyfriend. She wants Kyon. And Kyon isn't just his body, but his mind too. Screw with his mind, and there wouldn't be much point to continue.

Mmmm. I get the feeling this will come up again at some point.

[Netto]

I doubt Haruhi will go to that extent of "mind-controlling" Kyon, since Itsuki did pointed that she became "too busy being depressed" when Kyon opposed her...

But still...

[OkamiNoKaze]

Haruhi, is the Goddess Eris incarnate, I could totally see Haruhi starting a war, simply because she wasn't invited to join in on some fun activity.

I don't think her interests are that far out there, although to the degree that she's into them to exclusion of nearly everyone else, is something. Aliens (they make sense to me, it be weird for there to be only one planet in the universe to have life, including advanced life like ours) Time travel (there is the Philadelphia Experiment, apparently that was based on a true event) Espers=psychic powers, they seem probable.

Also I read a Doujin that has Kyon actually hit her, it a very H retelling of Episode 1, it led to some interesting developments. I think if you look in Image section they have the couple pages of Kyon beating on Haruhi.

[Apache Thunder]

Dam....Wish I didn't google that.. Seeing kyon hit her like that will give me nightmares for life....

Just kidding. It's not cannon anyway so I don't have to worry.

But the youtube video I found those image links in was cool. (some street fighter esqe game with anime characters....)

[aegisofrime]

Did anyone notice that Yuki has been showing her powers more openly recently?

Like for example, the speed running during the relay, tackling Mikuru uber faster, opening the fence...

Looks like Endless Eight did have an effect on her!

[risingstar3110]

It's hard to answer when all three answer my same post

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Self interest? Kyon wanted to punch Haruhi because she is abusing MIKURU. Kyon was trying to act on Mikuru's behalf because she would jump into a pool full of sharks if Haruhi told her to.
There was no self-interest in that punch. If Kyon wants self-interest, he would just LEAVE. But he can't, not leaving Mikuru like this.
Your attempt at trying to make Kyon look selfish is ridiculous. Haruhi is the selfish one, and as such she was going to get punished for it. Sure, a punch is excessive, but explainable under the circumstances.
......................................

Most of the times when someone claims their action are for another behalf, they're for their self interest. How many times Haruhi caused miseries to Mikuru while claiming it for either Mikuru or for general (SOS Brigade) behalf. It's like 99.9% of all times
Still don't believe me? Then tell me who else in that room want Kyon to hit Haruhi? Then tell me who think they will benefit by Kyon's actions?

Originally Posted by Akka

The message you quoted said very clearly : "because he himself didn't even realize he raised his fist", and yet you argue about "consciously performing a selfish act".
You seriously either have severe reading comprehension problems, either make a habit to only reading half of what you answer to...
Additionnally, it's not "in one's own self-interest" to punish someone. You don't really gain anything by it. It's more a point of principle.

I recommend you reread because you missed my point when accusing me to be contradicted. It's like you quoted from someone else when you write those.

Kyon can gain a peace of mind and a sense of superior if he follows his principles, like most of us and the rest of the world do (include Haruhi)

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

He's not being selfish. If Haruhi is allowed to do as she likes with no consequences because of her powers, it's going to hurt her as a person in the long wrong. Obviously, punching her would have been wrong (if he felt physical action was necessary, a slap would have sufficed), but doing nothing would have been even more wrong.
............................

I agree that doing nothing can make the situation worse.
But tell me what did you think when you say "it's going to hurt her as a person in the long wrong"? Because in most possibilities, Haruhi will just recreate new world or alter realities if it starts to hurt her.

Originally Posted by Netto

I doubt Haruhi will go to that extent of "mind-controlling" Kyon, since Itsuki did pointed that she became "too busy being depressed" when Kyon opposed her...

But still...

How about if each time Kyon have a soft spot or a change of mind, it was Haruhi unconsciously altered(or mind-control) him?
Like in Ep 6 of SHny:
Haruhi's conscience: kiss me or i destroy that world
Kyon's conscience: Yes! Master...
Or this EP:
Haruhi's conscience: someone should tell that idiot how important i am to him
Taniguchi's conscience: .........

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

How about if each time Kyon have a soft spot or a change of mind, it was Haruhi unconsciously altered(or mind-control) him?
Like in Ep 6 of SHny:
Haruhi's conscience: kiss me or i destroy that world
Kyon's conscience: Yes! Master...
Or this EP:
Haruhi's conscience: someone should tell that idiot how important i am to him
Taniguchi's conscience: .........

Then in that case, as I said earlier, Haruhi does not have a boyfriend, and never will. It's not KYON, if he isn't allowed to make his own decisions.

Absolute power can't get you everything. Not when it means you can't get someone to serve you willingly. You automatically lose this way, on the principle of it.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Then in that case, as I said earlier, Haruhi does not have a boyfriend, and never will. It's not KYON, if he isn't allowed to make his own decisions.

Absolute power can't get you everything. Not when it means you can't get someone to serve you willingly. You automatically lose this way, on the principle of it.

I consider that human do not have freewill anyway. So i think even in that event, it's still the old Kyon

But yeah, if Haruhi want to change Kyon's mind, it's much easier to do it indirectly

[Akka]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I recommend you reread because you missed my point when accusing me to be contradicted. It's like you quoted from someone else when you write those.

Kyon can gain a peace of mind and a sense of superior if he follows his principles, like most of us and the rest of the world do (include Haruhi)

Both your grammar, reasoning and basis of argumentation are so mangled they make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Let's call it a day, nothing good will come out of it.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by aegisofrime

Did anyone notice that Yuki has been showing her powers more openly recently?

Like for example, the speed running during the relay, tackling Mikuru uber faster, opening the fence...

Looks like Endless Eight did have an effect on her!

In Mysterique Sign she unlocked a door Haruhi had already tried to open. The only example there that is seemingly out of character is the relay race, but that's mainly her competitive nature (which she already had in the first E8 episode, as evidenced by the fact that she never lost to Haruhi in the race) in action. Sigh is a rare occurrence, and she pretty much has to be open with her abilities to attempt maintaining the status quo.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I consider that human do not have freewill anyway. So i think even in that event, it's still the old Kyon

But yeah, if Haruhi want to change Kyon's mind, it's much easier to do it indirectly

It's not about direct or indirect, and it's not about easy or hard; there is no POINT in using mind control. If Haruhi want servants, she already got Itsuki.

And if you think it is okay for Haruhi to mind control Kyon because you think his mind doesn't matter, then it is unfortunate; whether you think free will exist or not, changing someone's mind through mind control is still considered a type of personality murder.

If Free Will doesn't exist, then Haruhi, by changing Kyon's brain, effectively kills him and replaces him with someone else. Because without free will, everyone will do the same thing they were suppose to do. Changing that means changing the person all together.

To simplify what I mean; in order for a mind controlled Kyon to still be Old Kyon, free will HAS to exist. It is the only way for Kyon to choose an option he otherwise wouldn't. Thus the fact that you don't believe in free will directly contradicts your idea that mind control have no influence. Instead, it changes EVERYTHING.

[Jintor]

I resist the idea of 'mind control' or even 'mind influence' beyond that of normal human communication (although, like Itsuki, I must make allowances for the fact that it might exist, given that we do not know the extent of Haruhi's powers) because - among other things - it means that no 'true' characters exist except for Haruhi.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Jintor

I resist the idea of 'mind control' or even 'mind influence' beyond that of normal human communication (although, like Itsuki, I must make allowances for the fact that it might exist, given that we do not know the extent of Haruhi's powers) because - among other things - it means that no 'true' characters exist except for Haruhi.

Haruhi knows this. That's why even though she is likely capable of it, she would never use that power. To use that power means Haruhi will become truly alone; everyone else will cease to be any more than an extension of herself.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Haruhi knows this. That's why even though she is likely capable of it, she would never use that power. To use that power means Haruhi will become truly alone; everyone else will cease to be any more than an extension of herself.

She doesn't know she is a god, how can she decide to use or not use a power ?
Or did you mean that all this was how her unconscious reasoned ?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Akka

She doesn't know she is a god, how can she decide to use or not use a power ?
Or did you mean that all this was how her unconscious reasoned ?

She doesn't need to know she is a God, Haruhi just needs to know mind control isn't going to get her what she wants. She isn't going to mind control anyone, consciously or otherwise, if she doesn't want it to begin with.

Mind-controlled Kyon = Undesirable to Haruhi. Thus, no mind-controlled Kyon.

[Akka]

Okay, that's what I meant with "what her unconscious reasoned" ^^

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Akka

Okay, that's what I meant with "what her unconscious reasoned" ^^

There wouldn't be any need for there to be any "reasoning" behind the scenes. Haruhi doesn't want a mind-controlled Kyon, and that's that. There would not be any chance of it happening because it is not desired. Her powers would only activate when she actually wanted something, it isn't some separate entity that makes decisions independent of her.

[KeroKai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that there's strong reason to believe that Haruhi can not manipulate the free will of others; that this exists outside of her control.

If Haruhi could manipulate the free will of others, Mikuru would almost certainly be less resistant to Haruhi's dressing her up, and Kyon would not have objected so pronouncedly to what Haruhi was doing to Mikuru.

A little late into the conversation but the easiest solution to this problem is because Haruhi believes in the free will of other people. If Kyon were to walk out, unless she totally believes that he will come back, she'd need to come up with a good reason (in her mind) for him to do so.

Haruhi already has alot of wacky ideas. It hasn't really been explained why some ideas activate and some don't... I would have assumed it's when there is a high emotional reaction within her, though that doesn't really work with the white doves.

Blurring imagination with reality... Perhaps it's a case of wanting something but at the same time not having contrasting thoughts. She doesn't seem to pay that much attention to reality so that could be a plausible explanation.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jintor

I resist the idea of 'mind control' or even 'mind influence' beyond that of normal human communication (although, like Itsuki, I must make allowances for the fact that it might exist, given that we do not know the extent of Haruhi's powers) because - among other things - it means that no 'true' characters exist except for Haruhi.

Well, since "humans have free-mind or not" is still an philosophical argument. I will say: if so, then the "true characters" which you are mentioning here are Haruhi or Gods alone....

@Vallen Chaos Valiant: you seems to be surprised when i say Kyon don't have freewill. By philosophical definition, i believe that you do not have freewill as well. I may affect your mind/ decision in how to write the next post; If i can do that well enough(which i probably can't), i even can make you lol, or admitting sorry. But it doesn't mean i mind-control you or change your own identity.

If Haruhi really can create and alter the whole universe, then she probably can mind-control Kyon. But she also can control her brain to not realising that she's doing it

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

@Vallen Chaos Valiant: you seems to be surprised when i say Kyon don't have freewill. By philosophical definition, i believe that you do not have freewill as well. I may affect your mind/ decision in how to write the next post; If i can do that well enough(which i probably can't), i even can make you lol, or admit sorry. But it doesn't mean i mind-control you or change your own identity.

If Haruhi really can create the whole universe, then she probably can mind-control Kyon. But she also can control brain to not realising that she's doing it

It doesn't MATTER if someone notices they have been mind control or not. Haruhi will notice. And that's what will prevent it from happening; Haruhi wants Kyon to be Kyon. You speak like mind control has no consequences, that it doesn't change anyone permanently. When by definition mind control changes the person permanently. You can't "Mind Control a LITTLE bit".

Whether free will exists or not, what you experience in the past determine what you will do in the future. A mind-controlled Kyon will do something he wouldn't do, and that will in a chain reaction change his actions in the future permanently.

In essence, you speak about how Haruhi could "get away with mind control". I speak about how Haruhi "Doesn't WANT mind control".

Haruhi can do anything and everything. But she can't force Kyon to do something willingly, that is a paradoxical statement.