2009-12-11, 01:29 | Link #4041 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Spoiler for EP5:
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2009-12-11, 02:47 | Link #4042 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Remember, the Knox rules have to affect only the story in question for any given novel by definition. Otherwise, you could go back in time and say nothing could ever have been invented. The world outside the story has no known limits.
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2009-12-11, 04:02 | Link #4043 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I can only agree with this if you specify that this apply for the specific red texts I quoted, but not for "red texts" in general. This is because we have a lot of red texts that refer to events that are outside the gameboard. For example the red text claiming that Beatrice existed in 1967, or the red texts Bern used in Ep5 before the game started (Natsuhi being alone). In other words the one you mention cannot be a property of "red text" but rather an implicit assumption of those red texts. Similar implicit assumption is the one behind the claim that chapel's door can only be opened with the chapel's key. Since a manual lock definitely exists, I guess that "from outside" was implicit. But lacking this knowledge one would think it would be impossible to open even from inside. If such implicit assumptions exist I can't help but wondering what other assumptions exist in other red texts, and it also makes me wonder what's the boundary of what it is legit to assume when stating red texts and how that can be abused by the likes of Lambda. It makes everything a lot more fuzzy and that's why I wished that such assumptions didn't exist or that it was set as a rule that they need to be explained.
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2009-12-11, 04:46 | Link #4044 |
Crazy but OK xP
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 31
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isn't Kanon the name of funitre?
if "Kanon" isnt funitre anymore than "Kanon" died and lives by his real name as a human. so we cant really trust the red truth if it doesnt say the real name of Kanon (&Shanon.) |
2009-12-11, 10:38 | Link #4045 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Also, anyone have a clue of the area and landscape of Rokkenjima? I know there's 2 houses, a church (which is where?) and is there anything else that do not know of? |
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2009-12-11, 11:50 | Link #4046 | |
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Assuming this was Rokkenjima some distances given in the story would either be wrong or some wordings were misleading. It was mentioned that Eva was found in Kuwadorian, 2km away from the site of the murders...yet this rendition of Rokkenjima would stretch the distance between the shore and the guesthouse to around a km at least. Also considering this terrain, Eva would have at least needed a day, if not 2 days walk to get through those hills, as it can be assumed that you have to walk through the woods at least at the middle point (as I sketched). The only other possibility would be, that what I believed to be the church would be Kuawdorian and 'other end of the island' was a very loose term and only meant 'last accessible point'...and there isn't a shore with a hidden harbour even near that point. Still I would rather assume that you have to raise the size of those buildings at least by 2 if not by 3 to get an actual idea about how small Rokkenjima actually is. So the only thing we know from the VN for sure is that: - it takes some time to get to the rosegarden and the mansion and that it is a rather steep climb. - from the preceding point we can assume that the mansion and the other buildings are rather high up, probably similar to what the anime suggests, and is quite safe from the sea - the mansion and it's rose garden are the first thing you get across after climbing up and going through a small strip of vegetation - encircling the mansion ground on all other sides is a rather thick forest which is probably kept at bay by some fence or wall - you have to go through at least a part of the rose garden to reach the guesthouse, making it located to the side (I always assumed, like the anime, to the east) of the mansion. - the church is rather secluded and not directly seen when standing on the mansion ground, suggesting that it is either some walk away or sorrounded by forest - Kuwadorian is at least 2km away from the actual mansion, hidden in the forest, sorrounded by a fence but still near enough to some shore to assure access by boat through the hidden harbour -the forest can be avoided by going along the coastline, but it's at least as steep as the climb to the mansion, making it rather dangerous if unprepared (or wearing a gown >_>)...
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2009-12-11, 12:40 | Link #4047 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I wouldn't be so surprised if the Rokkenjima that Deen made is not an accurate rendition of what Ryukishi describes so I'm not going to burn my brain cells on it.
Anyway I think it is pretty safe to assume that Eva used the underground passage to reach the Kuwadorian and that the 2km distance is a straight line distance and doesn't refer to any above the ground path (if it ever exist in the first place). As for Ronove's question, we only know of The Mansion, the Guesthouse, The Chapel and Kuwadorian. There are a plethora of theories about two additional buildings so to reach the 6 in (six house island), but so far nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned. Anyway I agree with chounokoe when he says that the rose garden is the first thing you reach from the winding path from the port. From there the Mansion is on the right and the guesthouse is on the left. In other words they are right in front of each other and the harbor should be exactly in the middle (or close to that). The chapel should be behind the Mansion, so that it can't be seen from the garden and the guesthouse.
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2009-12-11, 16:55 | Link #4048 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Kanon's body can be anywhere. No one checks the roof, outside in the hedges, etc. in episode 2. They don't really even go looking for his body; it could be two doors down in the closet of an empty guestroom, for all we know.
In ep4, the mere fact Battler did not find a corpse doesn't mean one doesn't exist. He either missed it in his search, the body was in an inaccessible area (such as Kinzo's study), or it was somewhere he wouldn't realistically search thoroughly (such as out in the woods). Honestly, if one were trying to commit a murder and not get caught, leaving the body to be discovered is the worst possible thing you could do. So the real question is not why Kanon's body is so rarely found, but why is every OTHER body so easily found? |
2009-12-11, 17:14 | Link #4050 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2009-12-11, 23:59 | Link #4051 | |
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Are they being hidden, then exposed by the "ritualist" to look like a ritual? Are they left where they are because the killer doesn't have the time to hide them? Does the killer want the bodies found for a reason unrelated to the appearance of a ritual? If we accept that there are multiple killers, the notion that they'd all follow a fake ritual is pretty implausible. There must be at least one killer who wants their crimes to go unnoticed. So how come Kanon (and a few bodies Battler never sees) is the odd man out in terms of not being found? |
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2009-12-12, 09:26 | Link #4053 |
Crazy but OK xP
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 31
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Well, we know 1 thing about the murderer, and that is that Battler did something (you know from ep. 4 the 6 years ago thingy) which causes these murders, so it has to be someone from back then, and Battler didn't knew Kanon so he is excluded....
Last edited by Dlanor A. Knox; 2009-12-12 at 09:27. Reason: miss spelling xD |
2009-12-12, 11:13 | Link #4054 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
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Kinzo(Or someone else, assuming him for now) created the Epitaph to jog Battler's memory on the off chance he forgot whatever he was told 6 years ago. Somebody with no care for the Epitaph decides they need to kill people. How many is unknown, as well as the reason. Staker X(I assume Human!Beato) has knowledge of Battler's sin, and perhaps conspiring with the murderer, agrees to help hide the bodies. Of course, instead they dresses them up to make it look like the ritual as described in the Epitaph. EP3 was caused by their somehow being incapacitated, so a newbie(Perhaps Eva?) was enlisted to help, with the promise of having her husband and son spared. "Hopeful" scenario: Battler thinks about the Epitaph, realizes it's talking about his sin, and fixes everything as he is now the head of the Ushiromiyas. "Other" scenario: What's happened so far. |
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2009-12-12, 11:13 | Link #4055 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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2009-12-12, 14:48 | Link #4056 | |||
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And then, even if we accept this incredible talent, we're asked to believe he/she doesn't manage to locate Kanon's body most of the time? If there's a ritualist exposing hidden bodies and staking them, they shouldn't miss Kanon's body even if it's hidden any more than they miss the other bodies (which they usually don't). Yet they pretty much always do, bar ep3 (if you believe the adults about Kanon being in the chapel, as they're the only source of this information at all). There's something not right here. |
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2009-12-12, 15:59 | Link #4057 | |
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I think that this wasn't meant to be a '2nd twilight' but was a complete mess up. This Eva-Beatrice is the same person Maria meets in Episode 1 and 2, she was prepared to give the envelope to Maria and probably scare the crap out of Rosa if it had to be done, but something went wrong. Rosa believed that person to be Ushiromiya Eva and things got complicated regarding Rosa possibly telling people that something is not right on the island...or maybe that person believed Rosa to have witnessed something crucial when she met with Ushiromiya Eva in the rose garden after they found the gold's hiding place. Yet of course people knew that Rosa and Maria went out and it was sure that they would be missed if they suddenly vanished, so just carrying them away wouldn't help and letting only Maria alive, even though she adores Beatrice, she could have told things she was not meant to tell. So that person had no other choice than to kill them both and leave it for the following people to decide if what happened was a 2nd twilight...also remember that the only clue we have towards the killer/Eva Beatrice aiming towards 'twilights' is Beatrice always insisting on it that she creates them. So I am forced to believe that the killer is also the one doing the stakings, but he is of course bound to normal laws of time, space and emotions...and maybe he gets nervous in certain moments and does not do his work as good as it could have done. Even though we are lead to believe that Rosa and Maria were already dead for a while when they were discovered, it could as well be that the killer was about to prepare the corpses to look like previous twilight victims, yet he/she heard people coming and was forced to run.
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2009-12-12, 16:28 | Link #4058 |
Blue Wizard
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Hmmm anyone noticed that Jessica's golden Eagle is the only one to match the one suit-Beato has tattood on her leg?
If you compare it to Battler's Eagle for example... Jess' Eagle has a different tail. Which matches this one : The siestas and the goats have that altered Eagle too. But the rest of the characters have the same Eagle Battler has. (Unless I'm mistaken) |
2009-12-12, 16:30 | Link #4059 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
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Of course, others *can* solve the Epitaph, but they can't "Understand" it. As in, why it was created to begin with. With all the parallels between them made ever more blatantly obvious(Like EP6's portrait), it's one of the reasons I just cannot accept the fact Beato can't be real without destroying an already-existing couple. You WANT Battler to go "BEHATOREEEEEECHE" for the rest of his life? Sorry, but that just doesn't make for a good story, or at least a good candidate for Ryu07's mushy endings. Quote:
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2009-12-12, 16:34 | Link #4060 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Piece Battler (the real world Battler), except in EP4, did not ever meet Beatrice once, so he probably could not develop any deep relationship in just two days' time, so there was almost no chance that he could go as a couple with her in the end.
For Meta-Battler and meta Beatrice, the case may be different though. |
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