(L) Kaguya-sama wa kokurasetai

[magnuskn]

I would be shocked if Kaguya isn't doing something behind the scenes. That would be totally unlike her.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

For a Zaibatsu, that's pocket money obviously. For a family or single person, it's an absolutely bonkers offer.

Using an Austrian example, the initial offer is like the combined salary of a working husband and wife for 2 years without any taxation.

The second offer now gets a 100 times increase, so Miyuki gets money equivalent to 200 years of the combined salary of a working husband and wife on silver platter just like that.

Of course I agree with you there, but it being a lot of money to the common person is rather irrelevant because Miyuki isn't the one offering the money.

In a negotiation or compromise, all you care about is minimizing the loss (or potential risk) on your side while maximizing your gains or potential gains. How much the other side gains or loses is an afterthought unless A) you're out there expressly to make them suffer, in which case it's not really a negotiation or B) what the other side gains directly affects what you lose.

In this case, like you said the money is pocket change to the Shinomiyas, so it doesn't really matter how much Miyuki benefits from it since from their perspective they're not giving much either way.

Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator

War funds is an understatement with this amount of money. Free money to be precise because he deserved jackshit and was in no position to marry Kaguya.

I'm not disagreeing with you here.

The only reason the Shinomiyas have any reason to negotiate with Miyuki is if from their perspective they think he poses a feasible risk of taking away Kaguya and potentially causing a big loss of their fortune or control.
Regardless of whether that's really true or not, it never looked like they ever thought of Miyuki as a threat in the first place until now.

[BWTraveller]

Not entirely true. As I said, he doesn't need to have any substantial chance of marrying Kaguya. He just needs to be an unwanted outside factor capable of interfering with them. And that he most certainly is.

[Endscape]

From the Shinomiya's perspective, the money they gave him is nothing compared to what they will lose if he convinces her to run away with him (they must know that she doesn't really want to do this and could change her mind at any time).

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Not entirely true. As I said, he doesn't need to have any substantial chance of marrying Kaguya. He just needs to be an unwanted outside factor capable of interfering with them.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. Like I said, what the reality is does not matter as much as what they subjectively believe.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And that he most certainly is.

However, I'm not sure I believe that the Shinomiyas thought this way before this chapter. They certainly didn't seem to care about Miyuki before this chapter. Now we're supposed to believe that they think Miyuki has the chance of pulling something off?

[BWTraveller]

Having read it, this actually makes a fair amount of sense. They offered him money as a "show of sincerity", basically a pay-off for having caused him some "trouble", and even then only did it at Kaguya's request. They were mad that Miyuki demanded such a huge sum and acted like he had a right to talk back, but recognized that he had been in a relationship with her and could have expected a great deal more, to the point that the amount he suggested was "reasonable". This much is true. Even if he no longer has any chance of marrying her, that doesn't change the fact that they showed up to "compensate" him for what they'd taken from him, and the given potential funds he could have gained if they hadn't interfered the price he said is indeed more reasonable. And even then it's done in part as an act of respect.

One thing I noticed here was that there might be another meaning to that compensation entirely based on the fact that it was delivered at Kaguya's request. Given how Miyuki framed the fairy tale, a gift from the "princess" would not be a parting token to remember her by or "compensate" him for the loss, but a tool with which he could get to her. Maybe, just maybe, she's not just sitting alone, a hopeless damsel who just wants her prince to give up. Maybe she herself is trying to help equip him for his coming fight.

This also fits with Miyuki's behavior. He was merely depressed and offended at the very idea of being paid off at first. Then, the moment he hears that Kaguya herself requested that these funds be given to him, his entire attitude changes. Suddenly he goes from disgust at being given money to demanding a hundred times as much. Kind of fits if it being from Kaguya changed the true purpose of the "gift".

[Shadow5YA]

I don't really get why they give Miyuki a literal bag of money. Seiryuu literally just said the money was transferred and showed his phone... meaning it was done electronically. Giving Miyuki paper bills makes no sense.

Also having read the chapter I'm still not sure I can buy how Seiryuu acted. Sure, I can buy that Miyuki went along with the deal because he heard Kaguya requested it, but Seiryuu could have easily just forced Miyuki to take either just take the 10 million yen or nothing at all.

[Lex79]

Well giving the money in person might have simply be done in in order to impress him and us readers more. One thing is to see a number, one thing is to see actual money.
Given the way things played out in this chapter, there is a possibility that this is a plan of Kaguya so President has funds to save her, and that Seiryuu is helping her. Let's see if this will be confirmed in the next chapters.

[Diluc]

Okay time to turn off my mind and enjoy this shit.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Having read it, this actually makes a fair amount of sense. They offered him money as a "show of sincerity", basically a pay-off for having caused him some "trouble", and even then only did it at Kaguya's request. They were mad that Miyuki demanded such a huge sum and acted like he had a right to talk back, but recognized that he had been in a relationship with her and could have expected a great deal more, to the point that the amount he suggested was "reasonable". This much is true. Even if he no longer has any chance of marrying her, that doesn't change the fact that they showed up to "compensate" him for what they'd taken from him, and the given potential funds he could have gained if they hadn't interfered the price he said is indeed more reasonable. And even then it's done in part as an act of respect.

One thing I noticed here was that there might be another meaning to that compensation entirely based on the fact that it was delivered at Kaguya's request. Given how Miyuki framed the fairy tale, a gift from the "princess" would not be a parting token to remember her by or "compensate" him for the loss, but a tool with which he could get to her. Maybe, just maybe, she's not just sitting alone, a hopeless damsel who just wants her prince to give up. Maybe she herself is trying to help equip him for his coming fight.

This also fits with Miyuki's behavior. He was merely depressed and offended at the very idea of being paid off at first. Then, the moment he hears that Kaguya herself requested that these funds be given to him, his entire attitude changes. Suddenly he goes from disgust at being given money to demanding a hundred times as much. Kind of fits if it being from Kaguya changed the true purpose of the "gift".

I mean, yeah. He outright told her how he intends to go about his tale of Princess Kaguya, so of course he immediately understands that she is setting him up with the means to go through with his intentions. D'oh.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

This also fits with Miyuki's behavior. He was merely depressed and offended at the very idea of being paid off at first. Then, the moment he hears that Kaguya herself requested that these funds be given to him, his entire attitude changes. Suddenly he goes from disgust at being given money to demanding a hundred times as much. Kind of fits if it being from Kaguya changed the true purpose of the "gift".

Yeah, it's quite subtle isn't it.

If we assume that this is all according to Kaguya's hopes/expectations/plan and that she'll hear back from her brother about how Miyuki reacted (which is quite likely) then:

1. She sent a "fight" message disguised as a "surrender" message.
2. That message also includes money to help in the fight
3. The message will also likely fool her brothers into thinking she's given up
4. Miyuki's response will inform Kagura that he got the true message and she'd be able to plan accordingly
5. Miyuki's response will also likely fool Kaguya's brothers into thinking he's given up

I guess the question then becomes, what can they realistically do?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Yeah, it's quite subtle isn't it.

If we assume that this is all according to Kaguya's hopes/expectations/plan and that she'll hear back from her brother about how Miyuki reacted (which is quite likely) then:

1. She sent a "fight" message disguised as a "surrender" message.
2. That message also includes money to help in the fight
3. The message will also likely fool her brothers into thinking she's given up
4. Miyuki's response will inform Kagura that he got the true message and she'd be able to plan accordingly
5. Miyuki's response will also likely fool Kaguya's brothers into thinking he's given up

I guess the question then becomes, what can they realistically do?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Un'yo is secretly in on the deal as well. They set him up to be somewhat sympathetic to Kaguya's problems.

[Tactics]

I'm surprised with how people interpret its Kaguya plan all along.

Seiryu mentioned Kaguya currently have no power to move any assets and that money is coming from his own pocket;
Right after he mentioned his goal is family stability, which aligned with Oko, so for him its more convenient if Kaguya give up and accept the marriage thus he got no problem with additional money as less disturbance works better for him.

Seriously, that part is less headache compare to how suddenly Miyuki worth such amount of money by explaining Ganan share on stock market. What a kind Zaibatsu they are.

The only person I see capable of pulling "Just as keikaku" right now is Papagane, to got his revenge on Oko.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I'm surprised with how people interpret its Kaguya plan all along.

Seiryu mentioned Kaguya currently have no power to move any assets and that money is coming from his own pocket;
Right after he mentioned his goal is family stability, which aligned with Oko, so for him its more convenient if Kaguya give up and accept the marriage thus he got no problem with additional money as less disturbance works better for him.

Seriously, that part is less headache compare to how suddenly Miyuki worth such amount of money by explaining Ganan share on stock market. What a kind Zaibatsu they are.

The only person I see capable of pulling "Just as keikaku" right now is Papagane, to got his revenge on Oko.

I'm just looking at what fits with his behavior. Just because Kaguya didn't give him the money out of her own pocket doesn't change the fact that the money was given at her behest. I'd say at the least Miyuki interpreted this as Kaguya setting up a "gift" for him that, like the elixir, looks like a parting gift but could also be seen as equipment to help get her back. As I said, his whole demeanor changed the moment he heard that it came from Kaguya, switching from an attitude of disgust at the very idea of being paid off to an arrogant but shrewd dealer determined to get as much as he possibly could from the man.

Not to mention what he told Hayasaka, specifically bringing up how he'd told Kaguya that if he was in the emperor's position he wouldn't throw her "parting gift" aside, he'd use it to reach her and get her back. She basically exploded when he did all that, so I'm pretty sure she remembers. And his attitude and choice to reference this certainly makes it look like he believes it to be like that.

I know it's mostly just speculation right now, but I really hope I'm right as it seems a start to a much more fitting ending, having these two schemers who'd spent so long trying to manipulate and expose one another to join together on the biggest, most ambitious scheme ever. I'm not sure that it's quite to the level that magnus suggests, but it's still a path that can naturally follow from our current position and take things in a very different, much better direction.

Also, I don't think it's that Miyuki was "worth" that much, but rather whether his demand was reasonable given his loss. Again, as stated before, it's not that much to the conglomerate. And more importantly, since they were framing this as compensation for having put an end to his relationship, taking into account Kaguya's personal inheritance is very logical. From a strictly financial viewpoint, they put an end to a venture of his that could have made him at least somewhere around ten billion yen, and almost certainly much more. No matter how much "worth" you see in someone, paying them one thousandth of that bare minimum estimate isn't "compensation," it's an insult. So it kind of makes sense that Seiryu would, despite his anger, have to begrudgingly admit that the demand was in fact reasonable.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I'm surprised with how people interpret its Kaguya plan all along.

Seiryu mentioned Kaguya currently have no power to move any assets and that money is coming from his own pocket;
Right after he mentioned his goal is family stability, which aligned with Oko, so for him its more convenient if Kaguya give up and accept the marriage thus he got no problem with additional money as less disturbance works better for him.

It can still be interpreted as Kaguya's gift regardless of whether she intended for Miyuki to use it for himself or to save her.

He wouldn't have accepted the money at all if Kaguya wasn't involved.

Obviously Seiryu only went along because he expects Kaguya to cooperate with the arranged marriage. Their motivations can be different.

[Kanon]

I definitely think the gift is Kaguya's way of setting up her own rescue. She can only act indirectly like this.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

From a strictly financial viewpoint, they put an end to a venture of his that could have made him at least somewhere around ten billion yen, and almost certainly much more. No matter how much "worth" you see in someone, paying them one thousandth of that bare minimum estimate isn't "compensation," it's an insult. So it kind of makes sense that Seiryu would, despite his anger, have to begrudgingly admit that the demand was in fact reasonable.

This is why previously I mentioned Aka should stop making things looks great.

The real error is naturally Ganan shouldn't have any influence anymore.
With the marriage idea initiated by Oko that even lesser branch family feared of exclusion there's no reason acknowledging Kaguya inheritance based on amount of Ganan share, especially with Ganan lingering doubt about Kaguya. Not to mention Ganan shares is only 20%. By book it looks sufficient but in reality of a 'conglomerate', with his current dying state, Ganan is going to get same treatement as Sam Raimi's Spiderman's Norman Osborn from board directors. Doesn't matter how much he sacrificed.

Oko and Seiryu should understand it better than anyone else.
Amount of money is never the problem, but fact that Seiryu give it in response to teenager with no bargaining chip who blabbering about Ganan inheritance that Oko and Seiryu can easily obtain control following mutual agreement with Shijo is insulting for a Zaibatsu higher-ups. Naturally, Miyuki should found himself inside a drum by next chapter after saying such things, then again he's the MC.

Seriously, you can have this chapter just Seiryu drop money, explain stuffs and leave.
Just tell the extra money is equivalent to Kaguya current value to the family if the marriage able to let Shinomiya survive for another day. More dignity to be told.
For some reason Aka need to pull this stock market things with Ganan name to the extent Miyuki, person who hardly bothered by an outdated cellphone, talking about investment on top of having big stock chart behind him ... with Seiryu easily buy it as if Miyuki is lawyer prodigy that able to ensure Kaguya will get enough from Ganan inheritance if she chose him instead of going with the arranged marriage.



Currently waiting for Papagane's "Keikaku Doori".

[BWTraveller]

You act like they don't care one bit about Kaguya, like they could cut her off and toss her aside or reduce her inheritance to nothing. They're staking a ton on her right now. Her worth to the family is massive as she's their best shot at stopping the destructive financial war they're caught up in. Of course they're not going to cut off her inheritance, and of course they're going to provide a few carrots along with the stick. So yeah, it was reasonable and again it's small enough that it wasn't a big deal to do so. And it honestly doesn't make sense to just dump the money and say "this's what she's worth to us right now". If they were to hand over what Kaguya's worth to the company presently, it'd be far more than a few million yen. It'd be far more than the billion Miyuki described.

You keep insisting that Miyuki has to have some sort of "bargaining chip" to be able to make demands. First off, no he doesn't. They're the ones that came offering compensation and he has a right to tell them that the "compensation" they offered is insultingly low. Furthermore, he most certainly has the potential to cause problems. Not huge problems that could destroy them, but problems that would be a major nuisance to them. Not to mention that, again, they want to give at least a little to Kaguya, so getting her boyfriend to accept her parting gift is certainly something they'd want to do.

Also, what the heck are you on about with Miyuki talking about stocks but being new to cell phones? What does one have to do with the other? And how is it at all strange for a man who's worked his butt of to get into an Ivy League to get into business himself to know a few things about the business world and the stock market? That's like saying a guy with a scholarship to MIT shouldn't know about technology because he can't cook a good omelette.

[~Yami~]

With money, I think everything that Shirogane and Kaguya need has been collected enough. They also have enough support from important side
The things left is to know what is Shijo planning

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You act like they don't care one bit about Kaguya, like they could cut her off and toss her aside or reduce her inheritance to nothing. They're staking a ton on her right now. Her worth to the family is massive as she's their best shot at stopping the destructive financial war they're caught up in. Of course they're not going to cut off her inheritance, and of course they're going to provide a few carrots along with the stick. So yeah, it was reasonable and again it's small enough that it wasn't a big deal to do so. And it honestly doesn't make sense to just dump the money and say "this's what she's worth to us right now". If they were to hand over what Kaguya's worth to the company presently, it'd be far more than a few million yen. It'd be far more than the billion Miyuki described.

You keep insisting that Miyuki has to have some sort of "bargaining chip" to be able to make demands. First off, no he doesn't. They're the ones that came offering compensation and he has a right to tell them that the "compensation" they offered is insultingly low. Furthermore, he most certainly has the potential to cause problems. Not huge problems that could destroy them, but problems that would be a major nuisance to them. Not to mention that, again, they want to give at least a little to Kaguya, so getting her boyfriend to accept her parting gift is certainly something they'd want to do.

Also, what the heck are you on about with Miyuki talking about stocks but being new to cell phones? What does one have to do with the other? And how is it at all strange for a man who's worked his butt of to get into an Ivy League to get into business himself to know a few things about the business world and the stock market? That's like saying a guy with a scholarship to MIT shouldn't know about technology because he can't cook a good omelette.

I'll break it down so its easier to understand.

First, its not abandoning Kaguya but awareness that at this point, for Shinomiya family, Kaguya value is strictly limited to agreement with Shijo.

Kaguya right now is precious because she is needed for the deal with Shijo.
Ganan inheritance held no real significance to her well-being as well as her future. Moreover with current Ganan state, a professional lawyer is more than enough to erase Kaguya name from list or reconditioned the whole numbers just to keep her name if we going with 'conglomerate' style. No reason, even if you annoyed or angry, as Zaibatsu second lead during times your old man is dying and clans in shambles to the verge of collapsing to accept what Miyuki said as sound logic.

Second, Miyuki need to have bargain chip to make his demand sensible, like it or not.

None of the complainers arguing about pocket money, honestly, but the circumstances that lead to that.
Seiryu pretty much told Shinomiya clan might as well collapsed if the agreement with Shijo failed, that's why they need her.
Miyuki answer to that? "Muh girlfriend probably get 1% Ganan inheritance when Ganan died so it make sense I asked more money than this."

If Miyuki is like Mikado, some rich boy from some big family, that line will be sensible because there's no obligation for him unless he got something from Ganan.
However reality check said he isn't. Being student council president of Shichinin have no merit in regards to that issue, let alone serve him good as problem solver to said conflict. Why he even deserve that money in consideration of first point? Likely this one will be solved by Mikado without Miyuki even realizing it for better or worse.

Third, yes, as someone who working with numbers, it troubles me.

If Miyuki bring stock market asset valuation to talk, Miyuki should aware what Seiryu talking about as well as how stupid his argument was.
Shinomiya family shares value dependent on Shinomiya family business continuity, TLDR, if this agreement with Shijo failed Ganan shares is no different than blank paper, something Oko and Seiryu should understand pretty well; thus I mentioned much better if Seiryu just drop the money, explain and leave.

I would appreciate it if back then there were portrayal of Miyuki aware of latest market trend or at least products because that is the minimal efforts of writing needed to say a character knew about stock market, especially in environment like Shuchinin. However most of times Miyuki is out of touch, for an understandable reason that is his studying. All this three factors combined made the deals that supposed to be cool moment of Miyuki is a mess where both sides didn't seem to understand who they are talking with and what they are talking about. Ivy League have nothing to do about that.