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Link #401 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Truth behind Jesus in the first 20 minutes of this video.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/ I'm currently part Buddhist/Muslim/Deist |
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Link #403 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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The scientific method came much later than the first intuitive guessing games of "what makes the wind blow?" or why the world happens as it does. Spiritual explanations were the best that was available: the theory was "things move because they have intent" --- therefore someone is responsible for lightning, the tides, good crops. We should be nice to those powerful unseen beings, eh? Religion itself isn't necessarily a bad thing -- having a spiritual underpinning for life, the universe, and whathaveyou. Religious DOCTRINE, otoh, can inspire people to do really terrible things as well as really good things. Some doctrine seems specifically designed for "less than noble" purposes when examined for who benefits and who doesn't.
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Link #404 | |
Gregory House
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However, what the guy presents is no "truth". He just took that theory (which actually has some pretty good bases for its claims) shouted it as truth and made a number of grossly inadequate generalizations, plus a couple of blatant lies (I particularly loved how wrong he presented the background of Bacchus). Sorry, but that's not it. If you really want to see some actual material about it, check the sources on the Wikipedia entries for themes like Jesus Christ in Comparative Mythology.
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Link #405 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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You make it sound like religion was designed. I disagree. I think it mostly just happened. Sure, over time, maybe some people were able to insert some manipulative stuff. But I seriously doubt some caveman somewhere woke and and thought "Hey! I'm going to con everyone with a neat story about supernatural beings who want me to get the best share of the meat!" And if they'd held different beliefs? Maybe they'd worship the Spaghetti Monster, but I don't see how it'd make much difference. There are only so many ways to build a cohesive society. Quote:
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Link #406 | |
Gregory House
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Link #407 | ||||
Senior Member
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Can you elaborate please, I don't get it =/.
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People might if that's what they decided to worship. Quote:
You speak as if cavemen had the logic of today to be able to first of all stop trying to survive and come up with a story, and than actually be ABLE to think of it. Quote:
~ I do not dismiss any of your ideas because I don't know what happened, I just choose to perceive it differently. |
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Link #408 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Hmmm, I elaborated in the next few sentences. It *sounded* like you were saying that religious explanations had somehow beat down "adventure and discovery" so I was pointing out that simple stories involving unseen beings came first. The "discovery" and the methods to discover came much later.
Your later comments show you weren't really confused. Its more like we're all using the word "religion" to discuss what are actually a number of separate things: 1) personal spirituality, 2) attributing sentience to natural forces, 3) sympathetic magic (sacrifice to appease unseen beings), 4) moral codes for living, 5) organized religion (authority, power and bureaucracy). Balling all those up into "religion" creates a lot of the misunderstandings I see posted.
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Link #409 | |
Senior Member
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Link #410 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I think it's just some guys who wondered about why the wind blew, and could only come up with "It's a giant blowing air out of his mouth". It snowballed from there. |
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Link #411 | |
Senior Member
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We're not going to change each others minds anyways =/. |
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Link #412 | |
Gregory House
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I'm not trying to be rude here, but I think you're trying to purposefully misinterpret the point ("strawman" I think we generally call that ![]()
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Link #413 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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WK: I don't think I'm misinterpreting it. There's a huge difference between saying "As religions grew in power, some people came along to abuse that power and make it grow" and "religions were created only to manipulate people". I also disagree with you on a few points. Like your use of the term "organised religion" to separate the innocent proto-priests from the big bad manipulators. I don't think there was an appreciable cut-off between a father sharing the stories his father told him with his son, and a shaman passing on the secrets of lighting fires. I think it started with some guy coming up with stories for the wind or lightning. Stories that made sense to him. They made sense to the people around him, and they thought "Hey, that guy is pretty smart. Maybe we should listen to him more. Come to him with our questions." It all snow-balled from there. Nobody may have intended religion. It just happened. And sure, shamans tried to wrangle whatever payment they could for their work. But to call it manipulative... Well, maybe I'm underestimating cavemen, but I don't imagine they had that kind of long term vision. I also don't believe they had the kind of free ride you imply they had. Hunter gatherers just couldn't afford it. So they may have hunted and gathered less than their neighbours, but they spent their times treating wounds and diseases, tending fires, and so on. It must have taken many generations before it grew into anything resembling a clergy. |
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Link #414 | |
Gregory House
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Link #415 | ||||
Senior Member
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Great, now please stop diverting the fact that you were straw man arguing with your cavemen.
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Let me see if I can get away with this ![]() Quote:
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So in turn, does that mean you agree with me that logic DID happen and people COULD think about things like manipulation. Not necessarily to the degree that we can now, but to a CERTAIN degree. Quote:
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Link #416 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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However, you've also been talking about religions in general. And that's a lot older still. Quote:
And while manipulation and power plays may have been part of some if not all religions, that doesn't mean that it's all religions are. It's just a part of it. A small part, sometimes. |
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Link #417 | |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I have no problem with global churches BTW. The catholic church is often the only candidate for organized opposition in a dictatorial state, as it is the only transnational source of authority. The more national the focus of a church, the more likely they ally with the regime. And the most fanatical priests/mullahs/shamans act typically on their own, without any real organization above them.
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Link #419 |
lover of the g-pa hair
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Merlin hon
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to be honest and not try to offend other people here, i hate organized religion and believe that your spiritual path should be a path that you walk alone one on one with whatever god you believe in.... also i find most organized religions to be very hypocritcal
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Link #420 |
Wise Otaku Seeker
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
Age: 34
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I AM PART
CATHOLIC AND my secodn religion is HARUHISM ahahaha well i just hate those who make protestant religions who make thme selves god but im not complaining to the point of shooting them i just hate them Last edited by technomo12; 2008-02-21 at 19:57. Reason: wrong spelling |
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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