(L+CR) Nobunaga: The Fool

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

In fact it is not really a standard. The standard MC nowadays is very different If anything, someone like Nobunaga is refreshing.

I know right the last time I actually seen an actual Hot-Blooded male MC was Star Driver.

[Benigmatica]

@Shikijin

I guess this includes Korea as well, since Hideyoshi historically tried to invade that country.

[DragoonKain3]

WTF how they hide that big rack? XD

Originally Posted by Thess

Oda Nobunaga and his wife hated each other and would gladly kill each other if their families hadn't pushed their union. You should be happy she's not Nohime.

That's the thing, with all the 'historical butcheries' of the show, they could easily changed that. I really got tricked into thinking that 'Nohime' really loving Nobunaga this time around, and that while Nobunaga will be in love with Ranmaru, I could put my mind at peace that the 'official wife' is actually 'Nohime'.

Now that the girl really is Michiko, the best I can hope for now is an Escaflowne-type ending. XD

[zztop]

Much like a real monkey, Hideyoshi just couldn't keep his hands off other people's coconuts.

The Eastern Star limiting Western Star traders to Takamagahara is reminiscent of strict foreign trade limitations imposed during Edo-era Japan(1630s-1868), which was isolationist(foreigners banned from entering, locals banned from leaving).
The ruling Tokugawa shogunate limited foreign trade and commerce to designated port cities/domains, the only places where foreigners could sell their wares and make diplomatic arrangements with authorised locals.(ex. the Dutch/Chinese in Nagasaki.)

Contrast with the real Nobunaga's time(1560s), where European traders freely traded and interacted with locals. Even some foreigners were known to befriend local warlords.

The Round Table Council's talk of a bad harvest could suggest ecological problems within the Western Star, which most likely links back to the prophecy.

Also wonder what the relationship is between Nobunaga and Ichihime that warrants Jeanne's male disguise, but I suppose the writers'll answer that later.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Thess

Hannibal and Machiavelli. I don't see anything wrong with the genderswaps because they are au-reincarnation versions and not the originals.

As for Ranmaru, I was expecting something of the sort, but I was surprised it happened on the second episode. Just pretend it's a special rack-shrinking fabric Da Vinci invented and you're cool.

I still feel as if they could have just gotten some actual women from history for the roles. Joan of Arc isn't the only famous woman in the annals of time. And how do we know that everyone is a reincarnation? They haven't even explained this reincarnation part yet, all we've really gotten so far is implicating visions, that's all.

And nice try, but still can't believe he could bind her up enough to not be noticed. She's no Mulan that she can hide that.

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

But anyways, the round table is interesting but why they include Chandragupta? He's from Asia in origin, and yet he's living in the Western Star. Oh yeah, and Chandragupta and Alexander are considered as enemies in ancient history.

It's as I was saying earlier, it seems that East= Japan, while the West= Everybody Else.

Originally Posted by Shikijin

I did worry after the first episode, but now I think it too early to tell. There is plenty of room for chara development.

I highly doubt it, she's going the same path as many other fanservice females, so I'm pretty much done expecting anything of worth from her.

In fact it is not really a standard. The standard MC nowadays is very different If anything, someone like Nobunaga is refreshing.

I have seen this hot-blooded MC many times, maybe not as the MC in a mecha, but it has been done, and several times. In fact there's really not much that's unique about Nobunaga to me that I haven't already seen before.

It's actually has made me question quite a bit why exactly is he supposed to be the "savior-king" again? Basically they're saying that this guy is supposed to be the saviour of both worlds and is destined to unite them and rule over them, yet despite them constantly telling us this, I can only really ask "Why? What makes him so special?"

Beyond the the nationalism of the intended audience, I can really see no reason why Nobu is so much more worthy to be this savior than any other character here. It would be different if they gave him some feature that he and only he could do and thus he was destined to be the prophesied saviour of the world, but there is really nothing there other than "the mech (and the plot) said so".

That's also the problem with deciding to put all these hugely famous people in one show. What is it about Nobu that's supposed to make him better than all of them? I could maybe buy it if this all was just about the East star and some famous Japanese figure came to Nobunaga with the mech and then they talked about the fact that he's the savior of the world, but here, they got Leonardo Da Vinci to completely up and betray his country and go all the way to East Star to name some guy that he conveniently crashed into as the new almighty prophesied one? This states that no one, not one of the people of the West were good or worthy enough to be this overall prophesied king? I just can't see that. They picked these particular characters and made specific reference leading back to real Earth history, and so because of that, their historical reputations are fair game here. So why is Nobunaga more of a worthy leader than Arthur or Julius Caesar, or Alexander the Great? They've done nothing in the show or explain this other than simply spend more time from his POV.

Am I just supposed to buy it because the machine said so? At least say because "he was born from certain circumstances", or "he has the power of the dragons", something to differentiate him so that we can see why he's supposedly so special.

I wouldn't say Westerners are automatically the bad guys. In fact, Oda Nobunaga was quite the bad guy in his time (hence the demon lord joke). Most of the character involved here are conquerors, so I doubt war in itself is presented as wrong. The "salvation" is still undefined, but I don't think it's about Nobunaga being an Easterner, rather than Nobunaga being Nobunaga.

You can already see that they are setting them up to be some sort of opposing force as they are sitting at their round table "plotting" and such.

Most of the historical figures including Nobunaga are somewhat morally ambiguous for the most part, which again makes me ask why he's the supposed "savior-king" again? But I already went over my gripe with that above.

Leonardo knows a lot more than he shared. If he is interested in this savior king there is a reason.

I think it might just be a case of lazy writing...

It was all a pretext to make Jeanne become Ranmaru.

A pretext does not allow for bad or lazy writing. Make up a more believable and sensible reason for Jeanne to pretend to be a man, and if that doesn't work just cut the idea entirely. There's no reason that any version of Ranmaru has to be there. This series is already a blender of historical events and characters, there's no reason that every single character in Nobunaga's history has to be there.

While the card seems to imply that there is something between Nobunaga and Ichi I don't think it is necessarily romantic love. At the same time the gaze of Mitsuhide seems suspicious as well. Possibly it is Mitsuhide the one interested in Ichi.

They should have handled that scene better if they didn't want such implications. The term "lovers" is usually not what one has in mind when thinking of sibling love.

It all started with Kawamori wanting to do a Japanese hystorical drama, so basically the Western side was tacked on.

Anyway, there is a strained relationship between Japan and China, it would not be wise to make an anime about a Japanese invading China. Besides, it would be diffcult to manage too many characters (I bet most of the round table knights will be just background).

It certainly does feel tacked on, though the real relationship between Japan and China hasn't stopped them from showing it in anime before. They've made China (usually by some alias) the enemy several times and also have featured many stories involving China itself, and even a more modern Japan against China. So, I don't think that would stop them if they wanted to do it here.

[MrTerrorist]

Finally watched the 2nd episode.

So Hannibal and Machiavelli are females in this universe and the guy in the OP is Caeser.

I wonder if Nobu had Jeanne disguise as a male as to not offend his fiance or potential brides by other clans?

Still loving Sugita as Da' Vinci.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Finally watched the 2nd episode.


I wonder if Nobu had Jeanne disguise as a male as to not offend his fiance or potential brides by other clans?

It's indicated that he did it because of his sister, Ichihime, because for some odd reason she wouldn't like it if her brother brought a woman home? (No, I don't get it either. )

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's indicated that he did it because of his sister, Ichihime, because for some odd reason she wouldn't like it if her brother brought a woman home? (No, I don't get it either. )

Nobunaga has a respectable image on his younger siblings. They don't think of him as a fool. Nobutaka wants his respect. Bet he liked that his brother gave him a present. While Nobunaga really dotes to his little sister Ichihime.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's indicated that he did it because of his sister, Ichihime, because for some odd reason she wouldn't like it if her brother brought a woman home? (No, I don't get it either. )

Maybe Ichihime is adopted by the Oda family.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I still feel as if they could have just gotten some actual women from history for the roles. Joan of Arc isn't the only famous woman in the annals of time. And how do we know that everyone is a reincarnation? They haven't even explained this reincarnation part yet, all we've really gotten so far is implicating visions, that's all.

And nice try, but still can't believe he could bind her up enough to not be noticed. She's no Mulan that she can hide that.



It's as I was saying earlier, it seems that East= Japan, while the West= Everybody Else.


I highly doubt it, she's going the same path as many other fanservice females, so I'm pretty much done expecting anything of worth from her.



I have seen this hot-blooded MC many times, maybe not as the MC in a mecha, but it has been done, and several times. In fact there's really not much that's unique about Nobunaga to me that I haven't already seen before.

It's actually has made me question quite a bit why exactly is he supposed to be the "savior-king" again? Basically they're saying that this guy is supposed to be the saviour of both worlds and is destined to unite them and rule over them, yet despite them constantly telling us this, I can only really ask "Why? What makes him so special?"

Beyond the the nationalism of the intended audience, I can really see no reason why Nobu is so much more worthy to be this savior than any other character here. It would be different if they gave him some feature that he and only he could do and thus he was destined to be the prophesied saviour of the world, but there is really nothing there other than "the mech (and the plot) said so".

That's also the problem with deciding to put all these hugely famous people in one show. What is it about Nobu that's supposed to make him better than all of them? I could maybe buy it if this all was just about the East star and some famous Japanese figure came to Nobunaga with the mech and then they talked about the fact that he's the savior of the world, but here, they got Leonardo Da Vinci to completely up and betray his country and go all the way to East Star to name some guy that he conveniently crashed into as the new almighty prophesied one? This states that no one, not one of the people of the West were good or worthy enough to be this overall prophesied king? I just can't see that. They picked these particular characters and made specific reference leading back to real Earth history, and so because of that, their historical reputations are fair game here. So why is Nobunaga more of a worthy leader than Arthur or Julius Caesar, or Alexander the Great? They've done nothing in the show or explain this other than simply spend more time from his POV.

Am I just supposed to buy it because the machine said so? At least say because "he was born from certain circumstances", or "he has the power of the dragons", something to differentiate him so that we can see why he's supposedly so special.



You can already see that they are setting them up to be some sort of opposing force as they are sitting at their round table "plotting" and such.

Most of the historical figures including Nobunaga are somewhat morally ambiguous for the most part, which again makes me ask why he's the supposed "savior-king" again? But I already went over my gripe with that above.



I think it might just be a case of lazy writing...



A pretext does not allow for bad or lazy writing. Make up a more believable and sensible reason for Jeanne to pretend to be a man, and if that doesn't work just cut the idea entirely. There's no reason that any version of Ranmaru has to be there. This series is already a blender of historical events and characters, there's no reason that every single character in Nobunaga's history has to be there.


They should have handled that scene better if they didn't want such implications. The term "lovers" is usually not what one has in mind when thinking of sibling love.



It certainly does feel tacked on, though the real relationship between Japan and China hasn't stopped them from showing it in anime before. They've made China (usually by some alias) the enemy several times and also have featured many stories involving China itself, and even a more modern Japan against China. So, I don't think that would stop them if they wanted to do it here.

Ireneshrada I agree with most of thing you said you like how Jeanne isn't really interesting so far and we should have been given a explanation as to why she has to cross dress but I so far it seems like the reason your annoyed about things like why is Nobu the Savior king or why is Da Vinci interested in him is because you are expecting all the answers immediately. Some of those things seem like things to be revealed at more tense or dramatic moments of the show. I might be wrong but when I read your post it just seemed like you are expecting all the revelations when it is only the second episode.

[Tiberium Wolf]

This series is below avg for me. There is nothing that catches your attention if you remove the historical names of the characters.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I know right the last time I actually seen an actual Hot-Blooded male MC was Star Driver.

You've been watching the wrong shows. Just from last year there's Mushibugyou with Jinbee who is pretty much the definition of hot-blooded, and half the cast of Kanetsugu & Keiji. xD

My problem with Nobunaga is that so far he's pretty much an expy of the blue guy from this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9rN0TK_Et0 (sry for the non-English subs)
Except a lot less fun, never mind the voice quality. He's already started grating on me...

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I still feel as if they could have just gotten some actual women from history for the roles. Joan of Arc isn't the only famous woman in the annals of time. And how do we know that everyone is a reincarnation? They haven't even explained this reincarnation part yet, all we've really gotten so far is implicating visions, that's all.

Hannibal Barca and Machiavelli as girls are more than enough for me... As for the reincarnations, people are making theories. It's been only 2 episodes so far, after all.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

That's also the problem with deciding to put all these hugely famous people in one show. What is it about Nobu that's supposed to make him better than all of them?

.......it's Oda Nobunaga. If that's not enough I don't know what is.

Also, you're thinking too deeply about this. He's the Chosen One because why the hell not. If this was an American production the Chosen One would be some American guy and nobody would have any problems with it (except for the non-Americans). This is kind of like that.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Am I just supposed to buy it because the machine said so? At least say because "he was born from certain circumstances", or "he has the power of the dragons", something to differentiate him so that we can see why he's supposedly so special.

It's been only 2 episodes so far. Two episodes. Seriously, what did you expect, the writers laying down the entire plot in the first ~40 minutes? Since people so love bringing up Escaflowne here - just how much explanation was there in the first two episodes of Esca?

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

There's no reason that any version of Ranmaru has to be there. This series is already a blender of historical events and characters, there's no reason that every single character in Nobunaga's history has to be there.

Meh, so many anime/manga about Oda Nobunaga flat out ignore Ranmaru's existence, what's the problem with this one not doing so?

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It certainly does feel tacked on, though the real relationship between Japan and China hasn't stopped them from showing it in anime before. They've made China (usually by some alias) the enemy several times and also have featured many stories involving China itself, and even a more modern Japan against China. So, I don't think that would stop them if they wanted to do it here.

But they don't want to, because aside of opening a can of very ugly worms that comes with the idea of merging China and Japan into a sort of union under the rule of a Japanese guy* (as the Planet West merges the entirety of Europe and its neighborhood, plus apparently parts of Asia as well), Chinese history is just way too much and its well-known characters are way too well-known to Japanese viewers. They'd just distract the audience.

*never mind including Korea. That would get even more ugly.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's indicated that he did it because of his sister, Ichihime, because for some odd reason she wouldn't like it if her brother brought a woman home? (No, I don't get it either. )

First thought when I saw that: "Oh great, they're going for a Ichi wants in Nobu's pants sub-plot. Another love triangle"

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by the one above all

Ireneshrada I agree with most of thing you said you like how Jeanne isn't really interesting so far and we should have been given a explanation as to why she has to cross dress but I so far it seems like the reason your annoyed about things like why is Nobu the Savior king or why is Da Vinci interested in him is because you are expecting all the answers immediately. Some of those things seem like things to be revealed at more tense or dramatic moments of the show. I might be wrong but when I read your post it just seemed like you are expecting all the revelations when it is only the second episode.

I don't know, I don't think I'm asking for two much. It's a twelve episode series, and from the array of figures scene in the OP, I'm thinking that a lot of the series is going to be devoted to mech battles. I'm not asking for a complete dissertation on what's going on, but I do feel that the pacing of the reveals are off, and that simply the way the actions are being done feel wrong somehow. I know it's only two episodes, but the show is going out of it's way to make it feel as a lot is going on in one episode and yet we're not getting much answers with the things they are asking us to buy either. All I ask is for thing to be done in a sensible manner, with explanations given as they are need. With all the stuff going on, I've needed more information to process it, but I'm just not getting it.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

.......it's Oda Nobunaga. If that's not enough I don't know what is.

Also, you're thinking too deeply about this. He's the Chosen One because why the hell not. If this was an American production the Chosen One would be some American guy and nobody would have any problems with it (except for the non-Americans). This is kind of like that.

I don't know much about Nobunaga and the only anime I've seen him in other than this is Sengoku Basara where he really didn't do much except be a pretty dastardly of malevolent presence.

However, despite his fame, that doesn't explain why he of all people is the savior-king. Why he above all these other famous figures, some of them more ruthless and some who've done far more, what is he this supposed chosen one?
Even if they had an American character like George Washington, or something, be the savior, I would still be asking "why him"? What makes this guy better than all these others?

Hopefully they answer that in future episodes.

It's been only 2 episodes so far. Two episodes. Seriously, what did you expect, the writers laying down the entire plot in the first ~40 minutes? Since people so love bringing up Escaflowne here - just how much explanation was there in the first two episodes of Esca?

I understand that. However, I still think more should have been explained than there has been.

Meh, so many anime/manga about Oda Nobunaga flat out ignore Ranmaru's existence, what's the problem with this one not doing so?

That's not a very good reason. The way they've handled Jeanne has been bad thus far, and I'm not thinking it's going to get better.

I can hope, but I'm not seeing it.

[PreSage]

Looks like Mitsu might have some attachment to Ichihime and the way he was watching Nobu and Ichi looks like it was through jealous eyes. So in their past lives, Ranmaru and Nobu were betrayed by someone also named Mitsuhide (as said in ep1) and

Spoiler for prediction:

based on Mitsu's look while he was watching Nobu with Ichihime, I predict Mitsuhide will betray Nobu again.

I wonder if the Lovers card refers to Nobu and Ichi or to Nobu and Jeanne/Ranmaru?

The surprising moment in the 2nd ep was the fact that Monkey actually drove the trailer quite decently...typically characters like him would have put the pedal to the metal and went crazy behind the wheel.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

All I ask is for thing to be done in a sensible manner, with explanations given as they are need.

And how do you know that's not how things are going to be done? Seems to me that the way you expect things to be done would mean giving away the plot right at the start...

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't know much about Nobunaga and the only anime I've seen him in other than this is Sengoku Basara where he really didn't do much except be a pretty dastardly of malevolent presence.

At least look him up on Wikipedia. Knowing him from Sengoku Basara is like only knowing Julius Caesar from the Asterix comics, or Xena.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Hopefully they answer that in future episodes.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

That's not a very good reason. The way they've handled Jeanne has been bad thus far, and I'm not thinking it's going to get better.

Well then we'll have to disagree on that.

Originally Posted by PreSage

Looks like Mitsu might have some attachment to Ichihime and the way he was watching Nobu and Ichi looks like it was through jealous eyes. So in their past lives, Ranmaru and Nobu were betrayed by someone also named Mitsuhide (as said in ep1) and

Spoiler for prediction:

based on Mitsu's look while he was watching Nobu with Ichihime, I predict Mitsuhide will betray Nobu again.

Well, the OP also implies that...

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't know much about Nobunaga and the only anime I've seen him in other than this is Sengoku Basara where he really didn't do much except be a pretty dastardly of malevolent presence.

Nobunaga is one of the Big Three who sought to unite Japan in a time of division, so yeah, he IS a big deal there. He is also one of the few japanese generals who understood how to fully use the potential of firearms and destroyed the Takeda while suffering little loss (a famous battle depicted in the Kurosawa's movie "Kagemusha"). So why him in particular? Because he is BIG. Like Napoleon, Washington, Catherine The Great and Queen Elisabeth BIG.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't know much about Nobunaga and the only anime I've seen him in other than this is Sengoku Basara where he really didn't do much except be a pretty dastardly of malevolent presence.

However, despite his fame, that doesn't explain why he of all people is the savior-king. Why he above all these other famous figures, some of them more ruthless and some who've done far more, what is he this supposed chosen one?
Even if they had an American character like George Washington, or something, be the savior, I would still be asking "why him"? What makes this guy better than all these others?

The Chosen One in legends is often some ordinary guy designed by Fate to accomplish great deeds. David? Arthur? Frodo Baggins?
In comparison, Oda Nobunaga is a famous hystorical figure who managed to unify Japan for the first time. He already has a respectable curriculum.

[AntonKutovoi]

Also, note that this "Saviour King" is supposed to represent BOTH stars. Nobunaga was also known for his love for Western culture. He was one of the first Japanese people that started wearing Western clothes, quickly accepted that Earth was round, prefered red wine to sake, etc.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by AntonKutovoi

Also, note that this "Saviour King" is supposed to represent BOTH stars. Nobunaga was also known for his love for Western culture. He was one of the first Japanese people that started wearing Western clothes, quickly accepted that Earth was round, prefered red wine to sake, etc.

In general, he was very open toward the West, and genuinely interested in European things, from food to art and culture, including Christianity. He even befriended Luís Fróis, a Jesuit missionary (who was in turn very interested in Japanese history and culture) and let him stay at his mansion. (It was Fróis who noted that Nobunaga sarcastically nicknamed himself Demon King.)

Unrelated, but there's also one of my favorite anecdotes about Nobunaga: milk/dairy foods weren't a popular food item in those days in Japan, and there was a superstition that if you drink milk you'll turn into a cow. Young Nobunaga allegedly decided he absolutely had to try and see if this was true, and started drinking all the milk. Well, this may or may not be true, but it goes to show just why he was called the Fool of Owari.