Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[ashlay]

When I said Lelouch's final objective was selfish, that is, the protection of his sister above all other human life, it means that, given the case that he was in power, and her sister was threatened, he would spare no life, no means, to save her, even if that means destroying his whole country. Lelouch is obsessed over his sister, and I'm sure the plot will fiddle with that obsession in later episodes.

you say that as if it's somehow odd for a mecha character, any fictional character really. the term raison d'etre was mentioned in one of the other threads a little while ago, though I think it's somewhat useful to illustrate something here.

Lelouch's objective, his dream or goal or however you want to put it, isn't Nunnally's life. his raison d'etre is Nannally's life. it is something that defines his character as who it is. you take away Nunnally, and suddenly Lelouch himself no longer exists, it has become a different character. and so, assuming a character is not undergoing outside changes that warp their reason for being, they'll go to any lengths to protect it, even destroying everything that isn't their raison d'etre. which is really by it's nature a selfish. it's the selfish impulse of the character to wish to exist as they are, and not become something else.

but any character would do this if their particular raison d'etre was threatened. Cornelia for Euphie (Suzaku now too probably), Kallen for Zero, even Lloyd for his mechs. I mostly bring up character's who have other people as their reason for existance because other people are irreplacable. Lloyd of course can always make another mech, and as long as he can make mechs, his attachment to the Lancelot is not that strong. but Cornelia, Suzaku (maybe), and Kallen? they'd go to any length's to protect these people (minus Kallen, who wouldn't destroy japan for Zero, but that would require Lelouch to no longer be who he is now, and thus he wouldn't be her raison d'etre any longer.) they'd kill anyone and destroy anything, to keep these people from dying. friends, countries, morality itself, all of it doesn't matter when a character's reason for existing, and thus their existance itself, is threatened.

[WanderingKnight]

Yeah, well, I was taking a little "off-fiction" approach there. Of course, every fictional character has to offer some kind of obsession over something or someone if you want to develop an epic plot, but I was trying to bring him 'down to earth' as much as possible.

[ashlay]

0_o

my bad. ^_^b

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah, because in reality, people are never unreasonable at all when their loved ones are threatened.

[WanderingKnight]

Yeah, because in reality, people are never unreasonable at all when their loved ones are threatened.

Of course people react somewhat unreasonably when that happens, but you've got to keep in mind that you're bound to find a lot of discrepancies to a common rule. Epic characters, in many forms of storytelling, retain a few basic 'guidelines', from which they seldom stray. Come on, you're going to tell me you've never seen an obsession like Lelouch's in other epic anime series (many examples come to mind, like Scrapped Princess and Ergo Proxy). In reality, however, different people are bound to take a lot of different approaches towards such a subject, and most of times, it will be much more moderate. People with a true "raison d'etre" -the dictionary definition-, would be bound to insanity, and probably suicide, were that 'raison d'etre' taken away.

[physics223]

For a cool plot twist, let's kill Nunnally.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by physics223

For a cool plot twist, let's kill Nunnally.

I am not sure it counts as a plot twist... Some blogs predicted such happenings since the very beginning.
Reasoning 1: She is a tragic character. Tragedy attracts new tragedies.
Reasoning 2: CLAMP often kill characters just because they want to generate maximum angst. Characters who are loved and being cared for are often targets for such.

Sure, it CAN happen. It just wouldn't be that much of a twist.

[Anh_Minh]

WanderingKnight: could you please clarify your point?

Lelouch's way is wrong (more so than Suzaku's) because he loves his sister, and therefore will turn evil when (not if, when) the writers decide to take away or threaten his sister? Is that it?

[evil|plushie]

Idealistically, Lelouchs way is obviously more immoral than Suzakus. But in all honesty, if this was an idealistic world, Lelouch would still have his mother and still be living in Britainnia and wouldn't feel the urge to destroy the system.

Realistically however, there is no moral difference between Suzaku and Lelouch. Just that one orders the death of enemy soldiers while one carries out the action of killing of enemy soldiers on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Yeah, well, I was taking a little "off-fiction" approach there. Of course, every fictional character has to offer some kind of obsession over something or someone if you want to develop an epic plot, but I was trying to bring him 'down to earth' as much as possible.

I don't see how Lelouch is any less down to earth than Suzaku. Realistically speaking, which are you more likely to find in real life? A Lelouch or a Suzaku?

[physics223]

The blogs aren't the omniscient anime producers, are they? Predictions remain predictions if they don't come true. As of yet, they haven't. So if ever it will happen, it will be a plot twist.

I'd say it's still cool. That depends on the perceiver, but it remains a plot twist (if it will happen, again).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Idealistically, Lelouchs way is obviously more immoral than Suzakus. But in all honesty, if this was an idealistic world, Lelouch would still have his mother and still be living in Britainnia and wouldn't feel the urge to destroy the system.

I don't see what's obviously more moral about supporting brutal imperialistic policies, unless you happen to believe in the White Man's Burden.

Suzaku may talk a good talk, and I'm sure plenty of nazis were good family men who loved their mothers. End of the day? He's helping oppress innocents.

[ashlay]

Reasoning 2: CLAMP often kill characters just because they want to generate maximum angst. Characters who are loved and being cared for are often targets for such.

but they only did the character designs....

He's helping oppress innocents.

come see the violence inherent in the system! come see the violence inherent in the system!

funny how by simply putting someone like Suzaku on the antagonists side some of us are so wiling to hate everything about him.

[Varis]

I'm trying to understand Suzaku... I just don't get his conviction... why is he so supportive of Britannia?

Does he think Britannia should rule the world? Does he stick to his reasoning he made at age 12????? or is he just trapped following that path because he killed his father for it and he could not take the idea of killing his father for nothing or the wrong reasons?

He kills japanese civillians and rebels and thinks himself righteous to do so? Why the did he join the military then to change the system from within? Does he agree with it or not?


Obviously mr perfect does not have a clean conciousness or Maos mention of killing his own father would not have affected him so.

So... does he know he screwed up and is trying his best to get himself killed fighting for what he though was right before he has to face reality?


Help me out here...

[ashlay]

^I always liked what Valiant suggested a few weeks back (though I can't seem to locate the post because I'm lazy)

We all know that Suzaku is constantly trying to justify killing his father, and so the concept is that Suzaku fights for Britannia as a sort of moral justification: Suzaku killed his father because he thought it would stop the war, and save Japan. and the reason he thought it would save Japan was because Japan could never hope to beat Brittannia.

but what if they can? if Britannia could be beaten, if they weren't the most powerful nation in the world, suddenly Suzaku has to admit to himself that he really was nothing but a murderer, that he killed his father for nothing. so he has to prevent this at all costs.


changing the system from the inside is really more of an excuse to justify his own subconcious desires, as what he really cares about (though he probably does not realise it himself) is the murder of his father. that's why when we see the Lelouch-Suzaku monologues of 'why the world must be changed' Lelouch ends by saying "if someone wins, the fighting will end" and Suzaku by "I don't know yet. but if I stop aiming for something my father's death will have been in vain."

this is also why Suzaku freaks out when people he knows have to be sacrificed (or random women with babies he sees), but doesn't seem to care about the people the Britannian army sacrifices. everything he does really is just to make himself feel better about the death of his father. of course, since he's not Lelouch, and doesn't have "a critic who's always looking at your actions and another looking at that critic's actions", Suzaku will probably never openly admit or realise these motivations to his character. (and since he's not the protagonist, he may not even have a breaking point where he realizes all this even in season 2)


of course, this is just an interpretation among many.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't see what's obviously more moral about supporting brutal imperialistic policies, unless you happen to believe in the White Man's Burden.

Suzaku may talk a good talk, and I'm sure plenty of nazis were good family men who loved their mothers. End of the day? He's helping oppress innocents.

I said in an idealistic world. Obviously in an idealistic world, there would be no brutal imperialistic policies.

[Anh_Minh]

In an ideal world, then, the entire discussion is moot. Your point? I mean, are you just comparing a Lelouch that'd be a terrorist just for the fun of it in your ideal world where everything smells of roses to a nice soldier Suzaku who's part of an army that only fires chocolate bullets?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

In an ideal world, then, the entire discussion is moot. Your point? I mean, are you just comparing a Lelouch that'd be a terrorist just for the fun of it in your ideal world where everything smells of roses to a nice soldier Suzaku who's part of an army that only fires chocolate bullets?

oh lord, the GSD jokes that could be made here.

think of it this way: Suzaku thinks he lives in an ideal world. he thinks that Britannia doesn't have brutal policies, and that his gun does fire chocolate bullets, and that those mechs he destroyed weren't really manned.

so it's not an entirely pointless way to look at things, since it's a nice way to maybe get an idea of how some characters view the world and morality.

[Anh_Minh]

It doesn't mean he's more moral, though. Just more delusional.

[WanderingKnight]

WanderingKnight: could you please clarify your point?

Lelouch's way is wrong (more so than Suzaku's) because he loves his sister, and therefore will turn evil when (not if, when) the writers decide to take away or threaten his sister? Is that it?

No, I said you're bound to have typical epic character twists to be quite dramatic, whereas in real-life situation people will have a much broader reaction towards the endangering of their loved ones. This was in response to the ironic phrase you used, "Yeah, because in reality, people are never unreasonable at all when their loved ones are threatened". Were you to find a person that'd be capable of reacting like an epic character towards the death of a dear one (that is, the losing of the raison d'etre), he'd probably be considered insane, and very prone to suicide. Like I said before, epic characters react in epic ways. Which means that a common person would probably be considered obsessed when reacting like an epic character towards the lose of a loved one. All this relates way back to the post where I said Lelouch was 'obsessed'. How it turned out like this, I really don't know.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It doesn't mean he's more moral, though. Just more delusional.

and thats exactally what suzaku is ~ hes off in his own little world thinking that he is able to change britannia from within being only a foot grunt ~

i think this is basically the scar that is left from killing his own father ~ hes a betrayer to his roots so maybe if he thinks he can change britannia from within is is able to repent for his sins ~

which is...the ultimate fail imo ~ he is just running from his problems by forming a weak resolve...im counting the time left to when he finally snaps