Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Nogitsune ; I'm rather impressed by your capacity to bring Clovis everywhere you know. And I mean it xD

Thanks, I try. xD
And he's so awesome that it's not hard at all!

[youngde]

Well, he could have just manipulated a few people w/ his Geass into spreading rumors about alot of his 'atrocities.' Or used his Geass to manipulate the media into reporting things that didn't actually happen. Once you blow up a mountain, kill your own troops, threaten the world w/ big-ass bombs and schedule the execution of people trying to stop you, it's a good bet that people would believe just about any rumor about you, whether it was true or not.

(Not saying this is how it went down, but it would be more in line w/ Lelouch's character than mass murder. I mean, he did sacrifice lots of Britannian soldiers--who would have been a hindrence to world peace--and killed disgruntled nobles--who would have been a hindrence to world peach--but killing innocent people isn't something that he would just do if there was any other way.)

youngde, signing off.

[snowdevil_crow]

Aw man, I saw caps of what they changed, awhile back, I just don't know where it is.

I think.

No, wait... that was ep 18. Not this DVD, I don't think.

Also, I don't think Lelouch just got the media to make stuff up, it would be too easy to uncover the truth of, and then there'd be awkward questions....

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by youngde

Well, he could have just manipulated a few people w/ his Geass into spreading rumors about alot of his 'atrocities.' Or used his Geass to manipulate the media into reporting things that didn't actually happen. Once you blow up a mountain, kill your own troops, threaten the world w/ big-ass bombs and schedule the execution of people trying to stop you, it's a good bet that people would believe just about any rumor about you, whether it was true or not.

(Not saying this is how it went down, but it would be more in line w/ Lelouch's character than mass murder. I mean, he did sacrifice lots of Britannian soldiers--who would have been a hindrence to world peace--and killed disgruntled nobles--who would have been a hindrence to world peach--but killing innocent people isn't something that he would just do if there was any other way.)

youngde, signing off.

why are people having a hard time believeing that he actually COMMITED the 'atrocities'
to say that mass murder isnt in his nature is nonsense
the man is responsible for SEVERAL massacares during the course of the show (and that was BEFORE he went all "ends justify..." like he did in the last arc)
and even when he was still "nice" he didnt mind sacrificing innocent people for his plans be they uninvolved, friend or foe
and he had stated out right that he would continue to commit an even greater massacare then the one euphie commited (or more to the point, that HE created)
and he didnt "pretend" to do all the other horrible things he does during the last arc (which alone, would make him a complete monster if he didnt do them for a relatively noble goal)
why are people having a hard time accepting that he didnt set out to "pretend" to be a monsterus tyrent, but to actually BECOME one
as much as you and i may like him we should also remember what he IS
and he is as far from noble or moral as they come (even if his cause may be noble)
he does what ever he needs to GET THE JOB DONE
and pretending or spreading rumors only serves to put the plan at risk if they are ever uncovered
he didnt CARE that he would be hated, he WANTED to be hated, so whats the point of pulling back at that point
in for a pound already, might as well be in for another pound

[blottyparchment]

Loli and anyone who's interested, I uploaded the redraws posted in 2ch here.

We get a lot of Kimutaka intervention, but they're mostly correction of the eyes and mouth.

[bladeofdarkness]

so the kiss itself wasnt changed
guess they MENT for the you-know-what

[youngde]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

why are people having a hard time believeing that he actually COMMITED the 'atrocities'
to say that mass murder isnt in his nature is nonsense
the man is responsible for SEVERAL massacares during the course of the show (and that was BEFORE he went all "ends justify..." like he did in the last arc)
and even when he was still "nice" he didnt mind sacrificing innocent people for his plans be they uninvolved, friend or foe
and he had stated out right that he would continue to commit an even greater massacare then the one euphie commited (or more to the point, that HE created)
and he didnt "pretend" to do all the other horrible things he does during the last arc (which alone, would make him a complete monster if he didnt do them for a relatively noble goal)
why are people having a hard time accepting that he didnt set out to "pretend" to be a monsterus tyrent, but to actually BECOME one
as much as you and i may like him we should also remember what he IS
and he is as far from noble or moral as they come (even if his cause may be noble)
he does what ever he needs to GET THE JOB DONE
and pretending or spreading rumors only serves to put the plan at risk if they are ever uncovered
he didnt CARE that he would be hated, he WANTED to be hated, so whats the point of pulling back at that point
in for a pound already, might as well be in for another pound

The only real massecre Lelouch caused (at least of innocent, non-combatants) up to then was an accident (Euphie, oops), and he felt horrible about that. He may believe that the ends justify the means, but he doesn't want to use atrocious means if there are other ways of doing it.

He has the power to make people believe whatever he wants them to believe. He may not be able to use it on too many people, but enough that rumors would circulate out of control. Rumors that would be easy to believe due to his behavior. Sure, I'm sure he killed people that would oppose the peaceful world he was trying to create, but it wouldn't be too hard to plant some 'witnesses,' fake some videos and make things look alot worse than they actually were.

As for investigation, most people wouldn't do it. They hate Lelouch for threatening them w/ nukes and want to believe the bad stuff about him. Sure, some people might try to uncover the truth, but not many would listen. Most people take for granted that what's on the news/what's general knowledge is true.

I'm not saying that Lelouch acted like a saint for those two months, but it wouldn't be hard to make himself look worse than he actually was.

youngde, signing off.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch is resposible for the massacre in narita (he buried half a city under rubble)
the massacre that euphie made
the massacre of the cult (god knows how many unarmed civilians died
he systematiclly killed off anyone in britannia who opposed him (that they were mostly noble, doesnt make it ok to MURDER them)
and he declares that he would (as emperor) spill rivers of blood
i think he is a man of his word on that account

the question isnt "what makes you think he would intentioanlly kill people for the sake of being viewed as evil"
the question is what makes you think he WOULDNT

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

why are people having a hard time believeing that he actually COMMITED the 'atrocities'
to say that mass murder isnt in his nature is nonsense
the man is responsible for SEVERAL massacares during the course of the show (and that was BEFORE he went all "ends justify..." like he did in the last arc)
and even when he was still "nice" he didnt mind sacrificing innocent people for his plans be they uninvolved, friend or foe
and he had stated out right that he would continue to commit an even greater massacare then the one euphie commited (or more to the point, that HE created)
and he didnt "pretend" to do all the other horrible things he does during the last arc (which alone, would make him a complete monster if he didnt do them for a relatively noble goal)
why are people having a hard time accepting that he didnt set out to "pretend" to be a monsterus tyrent, but to actually BECOME one
as much as you and i may like him we should also remember what he IS
and he is as far from noble or moral as they come (even if his cause may be noble)
he does what ever he needs to GET THE JOB DONE
and pretending or spreading rumors only serves to put the plan at risk if they are ever uncovered
he didnt CARE that he would be hated, he WANTED to be hated, so whats the point of pulling back at that point
in for a pound already, might as well be in for another pound

You are painting Lelouch way too black or is it my idea?
He is definitely not a moral-saint, far from it. In a nutshell, he chose to become the necessary evil to fix the already-evil in the world. I am not sure that this, makes his core, that of a "monster-person."

[youngde]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch is resposible for the massacre in narita (he buried half a city under rubble)
the massacre that euphie made
the massacre of the cult (god knows how many unarmed civilians died
he systematiclly killed off anyone in britannia who opposed him (that they were mostly noble, doesnt make it ok to MURDER them)
and he declares that he would (as emperor) spill rivers of blood
i think he is a man of his word on that account

the question isnt "what makes you think he would intentioanlly kill people for the sake of being viewed as evil"
the question is what makes you think he WOULDNT

Narita was a battle, not a massacre. Britannian authorities were evacuating civilians due to the impending attack on the JLF. Lelouch used a tactic that minimized his casualties while doing maximum damage to the enemy; that's normal war tactics. Civilians got caught up in it, but that wasn't his intention. (He, himself, admits that the landslide was more than he anticipated.)

Euphie's massacre was an accident; he just tried to put the best possible spin on it he could. In fact, he was going to join Euphie at that point to prevent any more bloodshed.

While many in the Geass cult were non-combantants, I would hardly call a group of people dedicated to researching a mystic power to help a tyrant Emperor innocent. Just because you don't hold a gun doesn't mean you're not a viable target in a war if you're aiding the enemy.

As far as killing other nobles, we're never given an estimate about how many nobles were disgruntled enough to cause trouble. If many were smart, they would have kept their big months shut after he wiped out a few of them.

youngde, signing off.

[bladeofdarkness]

welcome back sky

i am not saying he is "evil monster person"
but he is commited to doing what he views needs to be done
and he never cares about how many bodies he has to walk over to get it
you said it best that he is "necessary evil"
thats why he dies in the end
but he is necessary evil in the same way that Ozymandias and Treize and leto II are
he will do what ever he has to to create a better world and he would kill however many people he deems as needed to achive this
and since ZERO-R's goal is to make himself the single most hated person in history
why would he hold back in achiving this result
suzaku and C.C are on his side
rivals and milly are none involved
nunnaly, kallen, nina, and anyone else among the OOBK he might care about are in his custody
so the people he REALLY cares about are safe
why hold back now

@youngde
1)i assure you that collateral civilan damage is not something that is waved off in the real world
2)he was going to geass euphie into SHOOTING HIM, he had a change of hearts later on, but he was going there with wrongful intentions
3)massacring non-combatents men women and children who "support" the enemy indirectly is a war crime
4)the word used was "nobles are rebelling all over the place". and considering WHY they were rebeling i doubt many would stay still about it

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

welcome back sky

i am not saying he is "evil monster person"
but he is commited to doing what he views needs to be done
and he never cares about how many bodies he has to walk over to get it
you said it best that he is "necessary evil"
thats why he dies in the end
but he is necessary evil in the same way that Ozymandias and Treize and leto II are
he will do what ever he has to to create a better world and he would kill however many people he deems as needed to achive this
and since ZERO-R's goal is to make himself the single most hated person in history
why would he hold back in achiving this result
suzaku and C.C are on his side
rivals and milly are none involved
nunnaly, kallen, nina, and anyone else among the OOBK he might care about are in his custody
so the people he REALLY cares about are safe
why hold back now

Tadaima. 8)

Well, i do get your point, Lelouch is the epitome of "end justifies means" even if he has to kill his own desires in the process. But, i thought you had different opinion about Black Knights for example, while they are practically doing the same. {or maybe i am wrong, and it was another person? 8D}

At any rate, what i am trying to say, is that Lelouch's actions make him more tolerable in my eyes, for the reason, he did intend for a non-selfish-result. {though at times, that can be debatable}
Lelouch had principles, you can see it in his family-friend-virtues and how he treats his important people, he just chose to discard them so he can re-create the world.
Does not justify the atrocities he committed, but for me, his core is not that bad-twisted.

[bladeofdarkness]

i dont think i mentioned the OOBK
at least i dont remember it

and his CORE might not have been incorrupted
but that doesnt mean he would pull back on doing what he feels is needed
its like you said
he has principles, he just never lets them get in the way of doing what needs to be done
he's kind of like jack bauer

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i dont think i mentioned the OOBK
at least i dont remember it

and his CORE might not have been incorrupted
but that doesnt mean he would pull back on doing what he feels is needed
its like you said
he has principles, he just never lets them get in the way of doing what needs to be done
he's kind of like jack bauer

Well, yeah, it seems we do agree on a certain level. But you worded and said "the way he IS", while it is not actually like this. It is better to say, "the way he CHOSE to be". 8)

[bladeofdarkness]

actually what i said was "what he IS"
and what he IS is a very complex morally ambiguas nessacery evil at times well intentioned extrimest protagonist
and what he ISNT is a traditional hero
its very hard to even call him an anti-hero becouse there are very VERY few anti-hero's who'd be able to stand doing some of the things he does
if he wasnt the focus character he would almost certinatly be a "villain" (albit a very complex one)
and even as the focus character he is skating the line very closely in the final arc

so one should never use terms like "not a saint" or "not exactly jesus" to discribe him becouse that would be far too much of an understatment for even sarcasem to cover
lelouch is lelouch
and you have to take the bad with the good
and he has MANY flaws in that regard which should NOT be overlooked just becouse he looks cool or has a nice hat
i like him
but i also know when he crosses the line too far (i remember being very pissed off at the end of ep 9 when he is holding a gun to a little girls head)
and in the final arc he crosses the line so many times its like the line isnt there

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually what i said was "what he IS"
and what he IS is a very complex morally ambiguas nessacery evil at times well intentioned extrimest protagonist
and what he ISNT is a traditional hero
its very hard to even call him an anti-hero becouse there are very VERY few anti-hero's who'd be able to stand doing some of the things he does
if he wasnt the focus character he would almost certinatly be a "villain" (albit a very complex one)
and even as the focus character he is skating the line very closely in the final arc

so one should never use terms like "not a saint" or "not exactly jesus" to discribe him becouse that would be far too much of an understatment for even sarcasem to cover
lelouch is lelouch
and you have to take the bad with the good
and he has MANY flaws in that regard which should NOT be overlooked just becouse he looks cool or has a nice hat
i like him
but i also know when he crosses the line too far (i remember being very pissed off at the end of ep 9 when he is holding a gun to a little girls head)
and in the final arc he crosses the line so many times its like the line isnt there

Yeah, i meant the same. Wrong quote, but still changes nothing. 8D

I believe he is complex and stuff, that is kinda of default. And i do take his wrong traits along, with his good ones.
But i believe who he is, is not what he became. He became like this for a reason. Again, for the millionth time, that does not justify the atrocities he committed, but i think his heart was not flawed. Not completely at least. He just chose to embrace his fate.
Yeah, anti-hero definition, fits him quite well i suppose. 8)

[youngde]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@youngde
1)i assure you that collateral civilan damage is not something that is waved off in the real world
2)he was going to geass euphie into SHOOTING HIM, he had a change of hearts later on, but he was going there with wrongful intentions
3)massacring non-combatents men women and children who "support" the enemy indirectly is a war crime
4)the word used was "nobles are rebelling all over the place". and considering WHY they were rebeling i doubt many would stay still about it

1) Collateral damage, as it is called in war, happens all the time. It's unfortunate, but inevitable and rarely delibrate. Whether people accept it or not depends on whether they believe the cause is worth the cost.

2) My point was that he didn't go there to commit a massacre, not whether he was going there with the best intentions.

3) I don't think there is anything 'indirect' about how they were supporting the Emperor. And last time I checked, it is a viable tactic in war to take out enemy factories and supply lines, all of which have civilian workers. Not saying it's right or pretty, but inwar times, these things are done. Who commited war crimes are determined by the winner.

4) The phrase 'all over the place' certainly means that there were quite a few nobles rebelling to be sure, but that doesn't lead to massacre status if he's simply having mal-contents assassinated. And considering that the show implied most nobles were mostly out for themselves, once a few assassinations/arrests/etc. occur, it would be enough to get most of them to shut up out of self-preservation.

youngde, signing off.

EDIT: Just for clarification. I'm not saying that Lelouch did not do some bad things (certainly he made choices I would not have made in his position). I'm just saying it doesn't fit his personality to kill lots of innocent people particularly when there is another way of doing it.

1) The Narita battle. He didn't plan on killing civilians. Civilians were to be evacuated and the landslide was larger than expected (Nina apparently helped w/ the calculations, so there's more blood on her hands--though I doubt Lelouch would have ever told her.). After finding out he killed Shirley's father, he had a major crisis of conscious that one wouldn't expect if he were simply an 'ends justify the means' man. But he had to except that innocent people would die during the war he started, and that those people all had family and friends like himself. It's a fact that every military commander has to face if he/she is to be effective.

2) He never wanted to cause a massacre when he went to see Euphie, merely to get himself hurt to spur on the rebellion. When offered a feasible alternative to bloodshed, he went with it.

3) I'll admit that wiping out the Geass Cult was a poor moral decision on his part (although a good tactical one). However, he wasn't intending to do that until Shirley was killed. His state of mind during that attack was hardly typical of his normal frame of mind. At any rate, V.V. made sure there as enough of a fight that it wasn't a complete slaughter (if Cornelia hadn't been there, they may have been hosed).

4) I won't deny that Lelouch probably killed alot of malcontented former nobles and their supporters. Mostly people that were a danger to a peaceful world he envisioned because they would never want Britannia to compromise/release the other Areas and make peace w/ the UFN. But I hardly see how killing these people would make him appear as a demon once the world was at peace. To appear to be a true monster, he would need to kill innocent people. While I don't deny that plenty of BKs died fighting him (thought probably less than his own men), that was the 'high water mark' of the battle against him.

After he threatened to rain down bombs w/ Damocles, it's unlikely mainy major rebellions/freedom fighters would have shown up right away after that out of fear and lack of supplies. Even the remnants of the BKs appeared to be laying low. At that point, the best way to appear to be a tyrant, randomly killing/pillaging/and all that is to do a "Wag the Dog" and manufacture the atrocities on your own. He had the materials and manpower, and the ability to make anyone who worked on it to forget about. Geass some people into being 'witnesses,' and you've got enough plausible evidence to make a guy threatening the world with big ass bombs look even worse than he actually is.

Not saying that this is how it went down. I'm just saying that it isn't like Lelouch to kill innocent people if there is another way of doing it that is within his power.

youngde, signing off (again ).

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch made it a point to have the media praise and adore him as the emperor of the world and suzaku as the hero of the battle (after his "death")
i dont think he would have "wagged the dog" under those conditions becouse he made it a point to force the media play his game (as any good dictator would)
it contradicts itself

and considering he didnt mind doing all the horrible things he did in order to achive step 1 of the plan
why would he short out on the other stages in a way that puts the plan at risk
and i still consider the murder of anyone HE thinks would stand in the way of the peaceful world HE envisions as morally horrid
but i WOULD point out that this is a reversale of the magna carta in a way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_carta

the magna carta was a declaretion of the english king to the nobles of his nation that he would take their advices into consideration when making decesions
it doesnt sound like much until you understand that before it was made, the king could do WHAT EVER HE WANTED AND ANSWER TO NO ONE AT ALL
it was the first chink in the armor of the "divine rights of the king"
the presence of the nobles in a monarctic system is actually much BETTER then a system where the king answers to no one
they keep him in check in a way and keep him from acting against the interests of the country whenever he sees fit
its not a democracy, but its better then complete dictatorship and was the way most of the world ran for a REASON
it keeps the king connected on some level to the people of the nation (becouse the nobles themselves, are much closer to the people then the king is)

what lelouch did was NOT abolish the nobility of britannia completely and totally
he was STILL emperor and his word was like the word of god
but he canceled out the other nobles who used to have a say in the matters of running the nation
and that actually IS a bad thing when you understand that it leaves him with absolute power and no one to answer to
it wasnt a step towards demorcacy
it was another step away from it
toudo even lampshades this by saying that lelouch canceled out the nobility but continues to call himself emperor

[Sonae]

I have a question. Was Kaguya's poem ever translated?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Sonae

I have a question. Was Kaguya's poem ever translated?

Good question. I wanted to know what her final thoughts were.