Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Aquaman OS]

Lelouch also trusts his understanding of people enough to put himself in direct danger if he is confident enough that the person will react the way he predicts. He does this with Suzaku all the time(both times he got him into the disturber field, if Suzaku had shot him in the back he would have died. The 100 Zero's incident he could have gotten himself and all his men killed etc) and Suzaku was starting to catch onto that.

It's perfectly like Lelouch to pretend to want to save someone and then use that alibi to avoid suspicion after he kills them later.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Maybe I wasn't clear but I find it outrageously stupid of him to jump to conclusions and try to use refrain to interrogate someone instead of using other means first to confirm his suspiscions not that he just suspects Lelouch. I was pointing out that basically his "reasons" were nothing except personal bias that logically would not hold water.

Still don't know if I agree with this, but I wish he would have refrained her a$$, it would have made for interesting television if nothing else...It's not like most people hate him less, they still hate him the same so who gives a geass? The writers seem content with finally stripping away his ability to drive the plot (As evidenced by him being reduced to a barking terrier in this ep while every other element of the ep had importance)...They also seem content with giving away the ending with Suzaku being Lulu's doushinji-buddy in the END art pic...So, like a certain Sunrise character disgraced in another series before him, all you Suzaku haters seem to be getting your wish...What more do anti-Suzu's want? He's like one noble rant away from being apathetic at this point^^...It's sad to see his plot ability deteriorate in this episode, but it's what the haters have been clamoring for, so I expected to hear alot more happy voices after this ep, but everywhere I read he's still hated? >.>

Hated for wanting to use refrain yet equally hated for using Lulu as an excuse for not using refrain...Sheeesh, they should just replace the name "Suzaku" with "George Dubya" for the rest of this season...

[Orga777]

Everyone one else said it perfectly. I don;t even need to add to anything.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

There's no question he's doing this out of bias because he admits it. He says it straight up: "I have no proof but I still think it's him."

He may have reasons to suspect Lelouch, but he's ignoring evidence because his bias tells him its wrong.

Excpet this, I will address, because it REALLY needs to be.

If Suzaku wasn't following his gut, and just went with the evidence at hand, he would not have seen that Lelouch regained his memories, became Zero again, and staged his rebellion back again. After all, there is no 'evidence' for that either. People think he is stupid, but he catches on quick, and knows if something is wrong. Sorry, it isn't personal bias (because I have a feeling he prefers that it ISN'T Lelouch) it is a gut feeling, and he was right. Lelouch is Zero again. He may be wrong about Shirley (well... actually, he is still technically correct since it was really Lelouch's fault too...) but he has every reason to see it as him. 2+2=4 after all.

[morbosfist]

A gut feeling is one thing. He wants Lelouch to be guilty. He tried the phone trick: didn't work. Intelligence: didn't work. A gut feeling is something you follow up on. It becomes bias when you follow up and are given the same conclusion, yet refuse to believe it.

He didn't want it to be Lelouch in the first season because they were friends. He wants it to be Lelouch now because he wants answers about Euphy. It's his bias affecting his judgement, regardless of whether or not it pans out.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

A gut feeling is one thing. He wants Lelouch to be guilty. He tried the phone trick: didn't work. Intelligence: didn't work. A gut feeling is something you follow up on. It becomes bias when you follow up and are given the same conclusion, yet refuse to believe it.

Actually, after teh phone trick he didn't believe it. He didn;t start to doubt it again till he realized that Zero KNEW him too well (during the million Zero's thing.) That is when he started to have doubt again and couldn't believe all the evidence that says Lelouch is innocent.

He didn't want it to be Lelouch in the first season because they were friends. He wants it to be Lelouch now because he wants answers about Euphy. It's his bias affecting his judgement, regardless of whether or not it pans out.

Except he is right, and he knows he is right. (Now it is obvious to him of course.) It isn't just bias, he just has a hard time buying into everything. He isn't that gullible any more.

[morbosfist]

Actually, he is right and just thought he was right until now. There's a difference. He couldn't let go of his suspicion that Lelouch is Zero and was almost willing to drug a prisoner to get that answer. He took the better path and got his answer, but the point is this goes beyond a simple gut feeling. If it were anything less than a personal bias, he'd have never found the truth, because his normal investigation wouldn't have panned out. Hell, if Lelouch hadn't gone crazy with rage, he still wouldn't know.

[minnadaisuki]

I forgot to mention that Suzaku didn't know that Lelouch got his memories back when they saved Shirley from falling down on the building.

I think that's the reason why Suzaku is not laying a hand on Lelouch during that time.

[mysociallink2]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Actually, he is right and just thought he was right until now. There's a difference. He couldn't let go of his suspicion that Lelouch is Zero and was almost willing to drug a prisoner to get that answer. He took the better path and got his answer, but the point is this goes beyond a simple gut feeling. If it were anything less than a personal bias, he'd have never found the truth, because his normal investigation wouldn't have panned out. Hell, if Lelouch hadn't gone crazy with rage, he still wouldn't know.

I'm glad he didn't drug the prisoner, but still found the answer.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Actually, he is right and just thought he was right until now. There's a difference. He couldn't let go of his suspicion that Lelouch is Zero and was almost willing to drug a prisoner to get that answer. He took the better path and got his answer, but the point is this goes beyond a simple gut feeling. If it were anything less than a personal bias, he'd have never found the truth, because his normal investigation wouldn't have panned out. Hell, if Lelouch hadn't gone crazy with rage, he still wouldn't know

A gut feeling is one thing. He wants Lelouch to be guilty. He tried the phone trick: didn't work. Intelligence: didn't work. A gut feeling is something you follow up on. It becomes bias when you follow up and are given the same conclusion, yet refuse to believe it.

He didn't want it to be Lelouch in the first season because they were friends. He wants it to be Lelouch now because he wants answers about Euphy. It's his bias affecting his judgement, regardless of whether or not it pans out.

And all this is a hateable offense why?? Because you don't like certain aspects of his character right? Which is subjectivity right? Which is the same bias Suzaku is accused of right?? Maybe wrong, but his bias IS correct...That's the biggest point being ignored here...HE IS RIGHT...You know he's right, but because Lulu has geassed, blackmailed, or made loyal anyone that can concrete his gut feeling he's bias ...In this case, bias is only bias when the impartial judgement cannot be proven to be correct...You can hide behind the 3rd person view if you choose; that's certainley your right...However to ignore the fact that he is RIGHT based upon the evidence that's being hidden from him by Lulu (Which is giving him the gut inclination--He wouldn't need a gut feeling if Villetta told him Lulu is Zero in a report), that's just an argument of technicality...So I guess you can have it then ...

[morbosfist]

I didn't say anything about hate. Just like Orga is trying to say this is a gut feeling, I'm arguing that it's more. It doesn't matter if he's right. The motivations are the subject.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I didn't say anything about hate. Just like Orga is trying to say this is a gut feeling, I'm arguing that it's more. It doesn't matter if he's right. The motivations are the subject.

Except you are very, very wrong. If it was personal bias he would have acted against Lelouch SOONER. Notice he didn't? He still wasn't completely sure. He needed more evidence before he could act. If it was all bias, he could have just beat the tar out of lelouch and drug it out of him. Which he didn't do. So, besides almost drugging Kallen (which he, again, wasn't int the state of mind to think clearly), and the Nunnally call (which convinced him he didn't get his memories back at first) did he do that has all this personal bias against Lelouch?

[wingdarkness]

@morbosfist - And I'm saying you are more interested in the motivation than you are the truth...It's one thing when you don't know what the truth is but when you do, well IMO, it's a matter of character likability//dislikability that will have you sympathize with the actions based on the motivation or have you dismiss them...

Hey they screwed the pooch with the refrain...I was hoping it would be more, but it wasn't...They have kinda killed the dude's character at this point reducing him into a guy on the sidelines with a megaphone screaming at the players on the field who aren't listening, so I'll just be content if those who disagree with his methods just be happy they are right and stop expecting more...By not putting that refrain in Kallen he lost the fans that actually wanted to like him for atleast being a man of his word for once (like me), and made those who hate him despise him on both sides of the coin for also blaming Lulu as the reason he didn't do it...Atleast if he refrains Kallen he's just hated for action not for 2...And it atleast spares us this sad performance in ep 15...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Except you are very, very wrong. If it was personal bias he would have acted against Lelouch SOONER. Notice he didn't? He still wasn't completely sure. He needed more evidence before he could act. If it was all bias, he could have just beat the tar out of lelouch and drug it out of him. Which he didn't do. So, besides almost drugging Kallen (which he, again, wasn't int the state of mind to think clearly), and the Nunnally call (which convinced him he didn't get his memories back at first) did he do that has all this personal bias against Lelouch?

He's all about not using the wrong methods, so his initial attempts had to fall within that. Shirley's death pushed him over the edge, which is what allowed him to learn the truth.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@morbosfist - And I'm saying you are more interested in the motivation than you are the truth...It's one thing when you don't know what the truth is but when you do, well IMO, it's a matter of character likability//dislikability that will have you sympathize with the actions based on the motivation or have you dismiss them...

If the truth was all that mattered, sympathy would be a lot easier, but it isn't. He's jumped to conclusions and lucked out.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If the truth was all that mattered, sympathy would be a lot easier, but it isn't. He's jumped to conclusions and lucked out.

You see, this is the same answer we always get from people who support Lelouch. It still doesn't make any sense no matter how many times I see it. It wasn't just bias, it was a feeling he had, and if he just ignored it, they might as well have written him out of the show. He couldn't believe in all the coincidences . Why does it have to go right to "it is only bias"? Because that makes no sense.

[morbosfist]

How many coincidences were there? Lelouch called Suzaku's bluff (so to speak) at the SAZ and then Shirley died. This is not "all the coincidences", just two instances. If there were a lot more moments, I might be more receptive to it being a gut feeling, but there aren't.

The SAZ came and went and Suzaku could only think that Zero knows him well. Then there's the meeting with Shirley. She's acting weird the whole time. She tries to run (twice), tumbles off a building and Lelouch saves her, then runs into a building allegedly under attack by terrorists. Such odd behavior should have at least mitigated some of his suspicion, but he jumps straight to "Lelouch must have done it."

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

How many coincidences were there? Lelouch called Suzaku's bluff (so to speak) at the SAZ and then Shirley died. This is not "all the coincidences", just two instances. If there were a lot more moments, I might be more receptive to it being a gut feeling, but there aren't.

You are forgetting a lot of other stuff.
Zero coming back, being a tactical genius better than anyone else imaginable, facing down Schneizel the way he did probably through off some bells too. Staging a rescue for the BKs, him not getting much information from Intellegence. There was just too much there.

The SAZ came and went and Suzaku could only think that Zero knows him well. Then there's the meeting with Shirley. She's acting weird the whole time. She tries to run (twice), tumbles off a building and Lelouch saves her, then runs into a building allegedly under attack by terrorists. Such odd behavior should have at least mitigated some of his suspicion, but he jumps straight to "Lelouch must have done it."

Because Lelouch was in the area and is known to use Geass to do stuff out of character. And Terrorists would mostly mean Black Knights wouldn't it since they were the only significant fighting force at all. Lelouch+Terrorist attacks+mysterious 'suicide'=Lelouch. How can you say it is just bias when it fits together so nicely?

[morbosfist]

For a number of reasons. Zero coming back is fairly easily dismissed. After all, if the Black Knights wanted a symbol to rally around, who better? Facing Schneizel didn't trigger any alarms for Suzaku, nor should it really. Zero has his own country now, and Kaguya was all happy to see Suzaku. Staging a rescue for the Black Knights and the "all clear" from intelligence aren't even coincidences. It would be foolish to let them die, for the first, and the second is like saying "the crime rate is down, all the criminals must be getting smarter". He was getting confirmation from intelligence even when they weren't completely taken over, and as far as he knows they were doing their job.

As to Shirley, how could you possibly rationalize all that as Geass-afflicted behavior? Even Suzaku can't be that foolish. She ran before Lelouch even showed up. Then Lelouch risks his life to save her. Then she leaves the safety of the cops to run into a terrorist zone. This does not fit together well, it's stretching belief.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

For a number of reasons. Zero coming back is fairly easily dismissed. After all, if the Black Knights wanted a symbol to rally around, who better? Facing Schneizel didn't trigger any alarms for Suzaku, nor should it really. Zero has his own country now, and Kaguya was all happy to see Suzaku. Staging a rescue for the Black Knights and the "all clear" from intelligence aren't even coincidences. It would be foolish to let them die, for the first, and the second is like saying "the crime rate is down, all the criminals must be getting smarter". He was getting confirmation from intelligence even when they weren't completely taken over, and as far as he knows they were doing their job.

A symbol is one thing, but leading them in such a way raises an alarm of "Hmm, super smart tactics on level of insanity?" Lelouch would come to my mind too. Especially since pretty much all the other tactical minds were imprisoned.

I just have to disagree with the rest.

As to Shirley, how could you possibly rationalize all that as Geass-afflicted behavior? Even Suzaku can't be that foolish. She ran before Lelouch even showed up. Then Lelouch risks his life to save her. Then she leaves the safety of the cops to run into a terrorist zone. This does not fit together well, it's stretching belief.

Not when the death is labeled as a suicide when he knows she isn't like that.

[morbosfist]

I'll give you the tactics thing. Such mastery of strategy would set off alarms. In light of Shirley's behavior, suicide makes more sense than he thought it did.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

In light of Shirley's behavior, suicide makes more sense than he thought it did.

Um, no it doesn't?