Gurren-Lagann - Episode 27 (END) Discussion / Poll

[musashiken]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Fruits Basked fixed everything in the end, and it was one of the most touching stories I've read for as long I've been into anime / manga. I had tears in my eyes when I finshed FB, that series touched my soul. I'd give a fucking kidney to have TTGL's ending be half as heart warming and wonderful as FB's was.

I just don't see WHY Nia had to die and I doubt I ever will.

:\

You're not alone, Brother. You're not alone. Gainax!!

(*goes back to replaying Seto no Hanayome ending scene. Now that's what I call an epic happy end)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Fruits Basked fixed everything in the end, and it was one of the most touching stories I've read for as long I've been into anime / manga. I had tears in my eyes when I finshed FB, that series touched my soul. I'd give a fucking kidney to have TTGL's ending be half as heart warming and wonderful as FB's was.

I just don't see WHY Nia had to die and I doubt I ever will.

:\

The anime, you mean. The manga is about as heart-warming as being stabbed in the left ventricle. The anime bypassed all the REALLY mean stuff. E.g. the real reason Kyo went training in the mountains at the start of the anime. The characters in FruBa aren't evil, it's just that the plot contrived to ruin their lives in the worst way possible.

The reason Nia died was for a similar reason. Yes, it still sucks, but that was the whole point.

[Tokkan]

Nia's death left me crying for days. I'm still crying over her death. I also see that her dying... didn't make any bit of sense. There was so many hints that she could've been saved, but Gainax stabbed us in the back in the end. For that, I applaud them. It's not often that I get this attached to a character that their death affects me, and it's also not often that such an storyline move makes me well up in murderous rage towards the writers. Gainax truly are great at making my gut wrench. If there is a sequel to Gurren Lagann (which is possible, I might add), I would definitely watch it. Why? To see which character Gainax have decided to make me love only to kill her in the end, and see if she was good enough to beat out Nia... Why do I say it's a girl? Don't ask, you already know the answer.

[7Th]

Even if the way they handled Nia during the final episode really made me want her to live happily with Simon the route Gainax went with seems the most appropriate to me. Even if I completely fell for the way she gained her own “soul” through the power of her will and love, how in the face of death she just warmly smiled for Simon… I admit this was perhaps her most valiant development in the whole series and well beyond the starting “simple cuteness” she had at episode 9 when she debuted. Still, her final “thank you, from the bottom of my heart” was just depressing. Perhaps watching “The Fountain” will help you understand Simon’s dilemma and his course of action… although even then I still feel really down as her sweet sacrifice attitude really created a degree empathy within me.

On a related note, 2ch fans are really dedicated. Writing collective fan-novels and fan-poetry for Nia and her relationship with Simon.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The anime, you mean. The manga is about as heart-warming as being stabbed in the left ventricle. The anime bypassed all the REALLY mean stuff. E.g. the real reason Kyo went training in the mountains at the start of the anime. The characters in FruBa aren't evil, it's just that the plot contrived to ruin their lives in the worst way possible.

The reason Nia died was for a similar reason. Yes, it still sucks, but that was the whole point.

The manga got ugly at certain points, but that's what made the ending so great.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you on FB though, let's leave it out.

You know what bothers me?

Even VIRAL wanted a happy ending with a loved one and his wife (as was evident by that alternate reality deal).

I hope at some point Viral just clocked Simon in the face for wanting to become a hobo. I would have.

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[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

The manga got ugly at certain points, but that's what made the ending so great.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you on FB though, let's leave it out.

You know what bothers me?

Even VIRAL wanted a happy ending with a loved one and his wife (as was evident by that alternate reality deal).

I hope at some point Viral just clocked Simon in the face for wanting to become a hobo. I would have.

:\

Hobo? I still don't get it... what hobo?

Simon is not cutout for grand sparkling jobs. He is a digger at heart, and remained so. He isn't homeless; there would always be a home for him to return to. He has just gone "walkabout", or if you are unfamiliar with the Australian term, Simon has gone backpacking. It's a big planet that he has help uncovered, and Simon is traveling across it no longer to get somewhere, but to smell the roses. See the many villages, guide the young. Perhaps even, to find another undicovered talent similar to himself to be a mentor to.

[Kirarakim]

Well I think the ending of Gurren Lagann is much better than Fruits Basket's ending (and I am talking about the manga here).

Speaking as a whole I probably do like Fruits Basket better than Gurren Lagann but the ending of Fruits Basket was way too cliche and happily ever after. I was happy that the two main characters got together in the end but I didn't need to see everyone in the cast paired up. Gurren Lagann's ending was just a lot more meaningful and fulfilling to me.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Simon is not cutout for grand sparkling jobs. He is a digger at heart, and remained so. He isn't homeless; there would always be a home for him to return to. He has just gone "walkabout", or if you are unfamiliar with the Australian term, Simon has gone backpacking. It's a big planet that he has help uncovered, and Simon is traveling across it no longer to get somewhere, but to smell the roses. See the many villages, guide the young. Perhaps even, to find another undicovered talent similar to himself to be a mentor to.

Thank You! Simon is not a homeless hobo, he is a wanderer, a traveler.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Hobo? I still don't get it... what hobo?

Simon is not cutout for grand sparkling jobs. He is a digger at heart, and remained so. He isn't homeless; there would always be a home for him to return to. He has just gone "walkabout", or if you are unfamiliar with the Australian term, Simon has gone backpacking. It's a big planet that he has help uncovered, and Simon is traveling across it no longer to get somewhere, but to smell the roses. See the many villages, guide the young. Perhaps even, to find another undicovered talent similar to himself to be a mentor to.

Wake me up when your description of hobo doesn't make me feel like I'm reading the back cover of some cheesey romance novel or the ending to Disney's Aladdin.

Lame.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Wake me up when your description of hobo doesn't make me feel like I'm reading the back cover of some cheesey romance novel or the ending to Disney's Aladdin.

Lame.

He was describing what he thought Simon was doing and I absolutely agree with him. So you would rather have Simon living homeless, miserable, begging for money? Unless of course Simon could live happily ever after with Nia. Now that wouldn't have been a Disney ending at all.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

He was describing what he thought Simon was doing and I absolutely agree with him. So you would rather have Simon living homeless, miserable, begging for money? Unless of course Simon could live happily ever after with Nia. Now that wouldn't have been a Disney ending at all.

Um, yeah I would have been much happier with a happily ever after ending.

I would hope people would have figured that out after the past 5 pages or so.

And I mention Aladdin because that's what first came to mind. Going around the world to explore and all that. I just don't agree with him pulling out all these positives from something that doesn't seem to have much of a positive conotation to begin with.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Um, yeah I would have been much happier with a happily ever after ending.

I would hope people would have figured that out after the past 5 pages or so.

And I mention Aladdin because that's what first came to mind. Going around the world to explore and all that. I just don't agree with him pulling out all these positives from something that doesn't seem to have much of a positive conotation to begin with.

What's wrong with backpacking? In real life, a sizable quantity of people who retired from a lifetime of hard-work, ended up spending their remaining days travelling. Sure, Simon isn't traveling with an ontourage of bodyguards, chefs, and servants, but that's just not his style.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What's wrong with backpacking? In real life, a sizable quantity of people who retired from a lifetime of hard-work, ended up spending their remaining days travelling. Sure, Simon isn't traveling with an ontourage of bodyguards, chefs, and servants, but that's just not his style.

Simon spending his days ALONE traveling the damn world isn't his STYLE. I don't get how you could even come to that conclusion after 26 episodes of him going:

RAWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR R

And fighting alongside and growing up with people who shaped him to be who he is. Why would you want to break apart from that? Sounds more like a senile old man to me. The highlights of his days now are figuring out when he's got to change his damn diaper and catching his dentures whenver they fall out of his mouth.

Also, WHO THE HELL opens a nut with a drill?

Seriously.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Simon spending his days ALONE traveling the damn world isn't his STYLE. I don't get how you could even come to that conclusion after 26 episodes of him going:

RAWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR R

And fighting alongside and growing up with people who shaped him to be who he is. Why would you want to break apart from that? Sounds more like a senile old man to me.

Also, WHO THE HELL opens a nut with a drill?

Seriously.

Alone? He is with Boota. And Simon knows where all his friends are, and no doubt they would always welcome him with open arms. With his spiral-power, nevermind the technological advances they had, it would be a breeze for him to see any of them at any time. Sure, he does not currently have a love-interest, but Simon will find another girl if and when it is suppose to happen.

That "RAWWR" was just him breaking what binds and restricts him. And now Simon is free, he is free to travel.

[7Th]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Simon spending his days ALONE traveling the damn world isn't his STYLE. I don't get how you could even come to that conclusion after 26 episodes of him going:

RAWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR R

The only person whose company really satisfied Simon was Nia, with she gone there was no point for him to stay with the rest of the cast.

And Vallen Chaos Valiant, I'm sure Simon won't even try to find another love interest due to his "NEVER FORGET YOU" line to Nia and the fact 20 years later he is still bringing fresh flowers to her memorial grave.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 7Th

The only person whose company really satisfied Simon was Nia, with she gone there was no point for him to stay with the rest of the cast.

And Vallen Chaos Valiant, I'm sure Simon won't even try to find another love interest due to his "NEVER FORGET YOU" line to Nia and the fact 20 years later he is still bringing fresh flowers to her memorial grave.

Well... He certainly wouldn't be looking. But if the right person comes along, and the stars align, I think Nia would understand. However it would certainly not be relevant to the finale of the anime, as such the speculation is moot.

[7Th]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well... He certainly wouldn't be looking. But if the right person comes along, and the stars align, I think Nia would understand. However it would certainly not be relevant to the finale of the anime, as such the speculation is moot.

Yeah, but 20 years have passed already.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I felt bad for Simon in the end, and I think he should have hooked up with Yoko. Afterall, both of them have lost loved ones close to them, and Simon's new easy going life style would have probably suited Yoko's new lifestyle.

I do understand why they killed Nia off, a tragic hero is a archtype well known around the world, and having Simon be that tragic hero sent quite the message, not everyone gets a happily ever after ending.

It does ring similiar to FSN's ending, but I prefer Gurran-Lagann's ending far more.

Nia herself had accepted her fate, if the anti-spirals died so did she, if Nia was fine with it, and Simon accepted her wishes, then I have no beef with them.

If they ressurected Nia then they would end up with the DBZ problem and have the ability to ressurect everyone, this would probably lead directly to the anti-spiral's "Spiral Nemasis" theory, as they would be constantly be breaking the laws of the universe again and again.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 7Th

Yeah, but 20 years have passed already.

That's what happens when you are not looking for a companion, and that you don't stay in any one place for very long. Still, Simon certainly isn't lonely. You can be surrounded by people and yet be alone, and vice versa.

Simon knows there are people out there who love him very much, and that he love them back. They are family, of the Gurren Dan. And that wouldn't change. If any of them wanted to see him, I am sure he wouldn't refuse to visit.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by musashiken

I find it funny that you stereotype our folklore as mainly tragic.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

I merely said heroes of the chivalrous yet eternally tragic variety are more likely to be seen in Asian folklore than in Western. And why use a negative word like "stereotype"? It's not like tragedy is a bad thing, it's a characteristic.

Originally Posted by musashiken

So have you watched it or not?

No.

Originally Posted by musashiken

Seems like you only heard of it.

Somewhat. I've already read everything I could about it.

Originally Posted by musashiken

But the writers decided to ignore it at the last moment.

He did return her to normal, she wasn't an Anti-Spiral at the end there. Then she died. The writers didn't "ignore" anything since the dialogue way back when in Arc III mentioned once Nia goes Anti-Spiral, there's no going back, which was contradicted by what she said in Ark Gurren-Lagann's episode. The difference was, when she was first talked to Simon she wanted to discourage him, and in the second instance it was a "matter of fact" issue without intent, which gave him hope.

Originally Posted by musashiken

Whether or not I have experienced true love or not does not add merit to what I'm saying. If you want to be realistically logical about this, you have to come up with some statistics to prove your point. (And so do I). So coming from a different angle, I have to question your accuracy in assessing 40 year-old Simon's emotional situation from just a space of 2-3 mins. Me, I have never made any comment on GL's 20 year epilogue.

Oh please, you're basically saying all people get over emotional trauma as they get older, which just isn't true. Why would I have to cite statistics for something that would seem intuitively obvious?

Originally Posted by musashiken

I'd prefer it if you don't quote examples of animes based on games/mangas/novels. Especially games that have several endings. And use an upbeat, original anime because most of those examples you used are pretty depressing/serious in nature. GL is not. Even Midori no Hibi has a pretty good happy ending and I don't see it as a bittersweet ending. At least being dumped by a guy is not as tragic as dying for him.

I fail to see why adaptions from other works are somehow "inferior" to an "original" anime, especially since the adaption doesn't have to follow the original work in any way. This is especially true for Gainax, as Gurren-Lagann borrows heavily from Getter Robo.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And tell your professor to do the same. (What does he teach, gym?)

You're rude.

You insult someone who you know nothing about on based on an abbreviated, paraphrased passage from a second source?

To clarify, I did bring up the question of knights/ronins but there's no standard that dictates knights be tragic in the criteria I specified - humble backgrounds, larger than life influence but repeated tragedy (bourn well) and a modest end.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And what adventures did Simon have? The world was at peace at last, he threw away all his weapons (including his friends). All he did was wander as a nobody. Not the leader of the Dai Gurren Dan, or Lagann's pilot. Not Rossiu's friend, or Yoko's. Not Kamina's brother, or Nia's love. Nobody.

Story's not over yet. We don't know what happened in the time-skip or what happened AFTER the time-skip, though suffice to say it's implied nothing happened during it. The door is open for Gainax to elaborate.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's because responsible parents don't go around on "whacky adventures" at the drop of a hat.

Hence why "responsible parents" are not and are not usually around shounen protagonists. Most shounen leads, if not much of the whole cast, are orphans.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But do you seriously think Simon wanted more adventures? That he'd trade Nia's life for them?

You're arguing in-universe, that's not my point. Gainax might want to animate more adventures and thus allowed this window of opportunity.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

BTW, other examples of family men having adventures: lone wolf and cub.

That story looks really interesting. Ahh, it's from the golden age too.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Simon giving up on her doesn't.

Eh, we're just walking in circles now.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

- Kamina's death came as a surprise, he knew about Nia's death days in advance.

Nia's death was also a surprise, note his shock when he saw her flicker during the battle. And we don't know if she lasted days, that's just Yotsuba speculation. Personally, I think the wedding took place on the same day, maybe after a funeral for Kittan and the Gurren Gang.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

- He was shaken by Kamina's death, but eventually pulled out of it.

With help from Nia. Remember, Kamina presumably got Simon out of his depression from his parents' death, given how dependent he was on him and how dedicated he was to protecting him. Nia was the same way after Kamina died - Simon latched onto her and she became his source of inspiration.

After Nia died, he'd matured enough to just accept his loss and move on without depending on anyone else.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Nia's death made him spend the rest of his life as a hobo.

A content hobo, but true nonetheless.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Simon spending his days ALONE traveling the damn world isn't his STYLE. I don't get how you could even come to that conclusion after 26 episodes of him going:

He is not ALONE he is with Boota. Boota has always been Simon's most faithful companion. Boota is an awesome companion. As I said earlier Yoko also left everyone else. That doesn't mean either Simon or Yoko forgot about their friends or their friends forgot about them.

And I think it very much fits Simon's style. Simon never wanted glory. If a time came when he needed to fight to protect his friends and the Earth then I think he would fight again. But Simon just like to go with the flow. Simon dug the holes, now he leaves it for others to go through these holes.

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

And fighting alongside and growing up with people who shaped him to be who he is. Why would you want to break apart from that? Sounds more like a senile old man to me. The highlights of his days now are figuring out when he's got to change his damn diaper and catching his dentures whenver they fall out of his mouth.

Simon did not seem helpless at all in that last scene. He was the one inspiring the young boy and he still looked as capable and sane as ever. He is not this old senile man that you are trying to make him out to be.