Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[ashlay]

which is...the ultimate fail imo ~ he is just running from his problems by forming a weak resolve...im counting the time left to when he finally snaps

ah, but from a writing standpoint, does he not make the greatest antagonist ever? you either see him as a likable antagonist or you hate his very existance.

and all they had to do was a take a standard early in the series gundam protagonist and put him on the villian's side. didn't have to change a thing about the naive morality or the fact they're working for a corrupt government, just slightly change the point of view.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

In an ideal world, then, the entire discussion is moot. Your point? I mean, are you just comparing a Lelouch that'd be a terrorist just for the fun of it in your ideal world where everything smells of roses to a nice soldier Suzaku who's part of an army that only fires chocolate bullets?

I was just addressing a point that people seem to think that Lelouch's way is more immoral than Suzaku. And kindly stop with your patronizing and condescending attitude because it's quite annoying especially when I'm only trying to make the point that Code Geass ISN'T an ideal world (ie. a super robot world) and thus neither faction is inherently more moral than the other.

[Revolutionist]

The Empire of Britannia is probably as evil as a regime can be. They've shown their cruelty, racism and brutal tactics countless times. For example, they regard their conquered people as numbers as to strip them of their national identity and make them feel inferior. Area 11, and I think it's safe to assume that the other areas as well, has most of its population confined to ghettos. The Military is shown to massacre innocent civilians, including women and children...

Considering the kind of enemy he's up against, how can Lelouch's actions not be justified? If his true intent is to destroy such a regime, which at this point we have no reason to believe otherwise, then the ends more justify the means.

just my 2 cents.

[WanderingKnight]

If his true intent is to destroy such a regime, which at this point we have no reason to believe otherwise, then the ends more justify the means.

The ends of the emperor of Britannia might as well be the improvement and welfare of humanity.

[VetaMega]

I don't see how Lelouch is any less down to earth than Suzaku. Realistically speaking, which are you more likely to find in real life? A Lelouch or a Suzaku?

A real life suzaku and lelouch paring might be Martin Luther King vs Malcom X

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by VetaMega

A real life suzaku and lelouch paring might be Martin Luther King vs Malcom X

THAT's flame bait if I ever saw one.

Martin Luther King never joined the KKK and helped burn crosses on lawns in order to "change them on the inside."

[WanderingKnight]

Martin Luther King never joined the KKK and helped burn crosses on lawns in order to "change them on the inside."

That's a misinterpretation of what "the end doesn't justify the method" means. You don't need to change them from the inside. You need to put them in jail, using a 'weapon' of the system, with which supposedly no liberties are violated, except those of who violate liberties.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

That's a misinterpretation of what "the end doesn't justify the method" means. You don't need to change them from the inside. You need to put them in jail, using a 'weapon' of the system, with which supposedly no liberties are violated, except those of who violate liberties.

I don't see how this is relavent to Suzaku. It's certainly not what Suzaku stand for. If Suzaku aimed to become a politician or lawer to defend the weak, then maybe. The point being, the comparison witn Martin Luthor King was uncalled for because he never "joined the enemy to change them from the inside".

[Revolutionist]

That raises a good question...what does Suzaku stand for? There's no way he can be impervious to the cruelty demonstrated by the Britannians toward the Japanese population, and heck even to Suzaku himself. Is he really that naive as to think the empire can change from within?

I personally don't believe that's possible. While it is true that it would probably collapse under its own weight like the USSR did, chances are a lot more lives would be lost getting to that point than if Zero destroyed it.

[evil|plushie]

The empire kinda reminds me of the one in 1984, where to sustain the empire, there must be a constant state of war so that people will be unwavingly loyal and extremely patriotic.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

That raises a good question...what does Suzaku stand for? There's no way he can be impervious to the cruelty demonstrated by the Britannians toward the Japanese population, and heck even to Suzaku himself. Is he really that naive as to think the empire can change from within?

I personally don't believe that's possible. While it is true that it would probably collapse under its own weight like the USSR did, chances are a lot more lives would be lost getting to that point than if Zero destroyed it.

Suzaku stands for: "killing my father was not my fault". at least in reality, that's what his views come down to, even if they're subconscious.

but again, remember that Suzaku is massively naive. He doesn't think he's killed anyone, he doesn't think anything he does comes at a cost, that he can just rise through Britannia by thinking he wants to (read: no plan, still), and on a whole just doesn't live in reality. So Suzaku says he stands for "killing and rebellion is wrong, we should change things from within the society."


in pretend Suzaku world, Suzaku does belive he can change Britannia. in the real world, it's just a way to morally justify fighting in the Britannian army, which more likely than not is just another subconcious attempt to avoid acknowledging he's a murder (or get himself killed).

[WanderingKnight]

Lelouch is extremely naive, too. He simply thinks everything will end if the Emperor is taken down. And that's proven to be far from the truth, historically speaking.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Lelouch is extremely naive, too. He simply thinks everything will end if the Emperor is taken down. And that's proven to be far from the truth, historically speaking.

Half of his reasoning is for revenge, so that is all he needs. And once the Royal family is gone there is chance that he and his sister could live without constantly hiding.


Remember - he is not fighting to change the system or anything.(more likely than not he does not care what happens to the empire) He is there to avenge his mother and eliminate every one who might recognize and take advantage of him/Nunnaly.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Lelouch is extremely naive, too. He simply thinks everything will end if the Emperor is taken down. And that's proven to be far from the truth, historically speaking.

Did he ever say that? He said he wants to "win". Killing the emperor may be nothing more than a - to use his words - "stage" he has to "clear".

[ashlay]

Remember - he is not fighting to change the system or anything.(more likely than not he does not care what happens to the empire) He is there to avenge his mother and eliminate every one who might recognize and take advantage of him/Nunnaly.

well, that's not entirely true. Lelouch is trying to change the system in a way, ending the wars and all that.

but for Lelouch, that translates into defeating the Britannian military. and this being mecha, that's oddly enough a relatively modest goal.

[WanderingKnight]

Did he ever say that? He said he wants to "win". Killing the emperor may be nothing more than a - to use his words - "stage" he has to "clear".

Lelouch's told her sister many times, that he wanted a world where she could live in peace.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Lelouch's told her sister many times, that he wanted a world where she could live in peace.

hee hee, girl Lelouch. odd thoughts arise.

anyway, everyone's pretty much right about Lelouch's goals. as they've been saying for the past few weeks before the opening, one path leads to the past (revenge for his mother by finding who ordered her death and eliminating wakamoto) and one to the future (defeating Britannia).

[Juvyniled]

Unfortunately, it isn't possible to compare Code Geass with reality (for many reasons), however, mainly because of all the weaponry and single-minded people in their "world". With all their machinery and weapons, they're world was designed for bloodshed and violence. In our reality, people like MLK could make a difference, because people we're not AS narrow minded as the civilians in Geass. It's really all just racism and hatred expressed on extreme levels (yes, racism still exists in our world, just to a much lesser degree).

For one thing, imperialism is still a major philosophy in Geass (Britannia conquering Japan). With that in mind, violence seems to be an accepted practice, or at least a standard for survival. Thus, I conclude that although Suzaku's method of peace can work, it is more probable that only Lelouch's method will succeed.

Lelouch's told her sister many times, that he wanted a world where she could live in peace.

...one path leads to the past (revenge for his mother by finding who ordered her death and eliminating wakamoto) and one to the future (defeating Britannia).

Would be true, if it weren't for imperialism. As for the world where Nunally can live in peace, it's not a matter of when, but rather a matter of how long that peace will last. I'm sure the Japanese harbor feelings of contempt for their conquerers. So once the Britannian empire is defeated, what do you suppose the Japanese will do? They won't just think, "oh, it's no big deal, we'll let bygones be bygones." ... at least not immediately of course, although times are bound to change.

well, that's not entirely true. Lelouch is trying to change the system in a way, ending the wars and all that.

To end all wars, you must remove everybody that could potentially cause a war. As fictional as it is, the Trojan War was started because Helen was "stolen" by Paris. One woman was the cause of a war. People are just naturally irrational. While it seems that Lelouch is trying to do a good deed, one person summed it up best.

Remember - he is not fighting to change the system or anything.(more likely than not he does not care what happens to the empire) He is there to avenge his mother and eliminate every one who might recognize and take advantage of him/Nunnaly.

[ashlay]

^you act as if they're going to make a 3rd season.

it isn't possible to compare Code Geass with reality

keep this in mind.

anime is anime. mecha is mecha. and when Lelouch defeats Britannia at the end, there's a pretty good chance that peace does reign. anime is simplistic in that fasion, and most mecha now-a-days usually opt for the "good ending" approach. or maybe war will continue at the end, or there'll be a second series for Geass. But the point is we don't know. The series is far from over, and it's silly to try and justify or condemn what Lelouch is doing with possible ends.


all we have right now is what has been done and what the characters' intentions are.

[WanderingKnight]

Would be true, if it weren't for imperialism. As for the world where Nunally can live in peace, it's not a matter of when, but rather a matter of how long that peace will last. I'm sure the Japanese harbor feelings of contempt for their conquerers. So once the Britannian empire is defeated, what do you suppose the Japanese will do? They won't just think, "oh, it's no big deal, we'll let bygones be bygones." ... at least not immediately of course, although times are bound to change.

That's why I said Lelouch's position is almost as naive as that of Suzaku's.