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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 11 | 25.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 18 | 40.91% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 10 | 22.73% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 4 | 9.09% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 2.27% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll |
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2007-09-08, 08:17 | Link #421 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Scags has compromised their comms and he has inside help from before RF6 were even conceived. That's my point. His superior intelligence just means he can use these advantages a lot better. *Edit* Many apologies I just re-read your message, and I whilst you may see the point, the earlier posts were not taking this into account. Especially since Hayate has certain responsibilities, she can't just ignore certain things the same way that scags can
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Last edited by grey_moon; 2007-09-08 at 08:25. Reason: spelling |
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2007-09-08, 08:28 | Link #422 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I didn't mean "intelligence" in terms of brainpower here, though Scarlietti is probably a brighter chap too.
Intelligence here is used in the sense of SIGINT and the like. Though frankly, I got a feeling that TSAB communications aren't even encrypted, so... It is his obviously superior radzvedka and preparation that allows him to use Economy of Force and not get blasted. That's even though we all know he'd have to fail somewhere or another in order to bring about our protagonist's victory. Go read Ep23 thread or just grab a FLSnow fansub off the torrent. You'd notice no one blames Scarlietti. That's because he prepared and his decision was logical given the theoretical correlation of forces. |
2007-09-08, 09:53 | Link #423 |
Gone for Good
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Spoiler for Off-topic:
Anyway, finally we're starting to warm up to battles that everyone's waiting for, even Yuuno and Arf make their re-appearance. And already we have a girl impaled, in the chest. VITA~~!!! I got a question concerning last episode: Who were those three "Brainiacs" that were killed by Jail's cyborg girl? I know they were the ones who created the evil genius of Jail and were his ultimate sponsors, using Mr. T, er, I mean Regius, as a cover. |
2007-09-08, 12:21 | Link #426 |
Metroid of Humor
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Remember what Uno's Influential Skill does?
It's a system that allows her to connect to computers remotely without using normal networking protocols. She's sort of like a cyberpath. This means.. she can read a computer's 'mind' remotely, without tripping any sort of intrusion alert.
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2007-09-08, 12:28 | Link #427 | |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Unlike Scags she/RF6 has responsibilities so she can't just ignore a group attacking a target. She has limited resources and even worse these are most probably known to her enemy. Now did she ineffectivly split her forces? Well imho she didn't, just currently it seems her forces have been out manoeuvred. RF6 currently has available: Hayate Nanoha Vita Fate Signum Rein The forwards The grunts Hayate at the time had to assign them to: A. Doomsday weapon from hell. B. They had to deal with an unknown amount of combat cyborgs charging towards the city. C. A knight charging towards the GHQ. D. Dealing with Scags in hope it will take out the combat cyborgs, which in turn will stop the ship. E. God knows how many gadgets She assigns A. Herself, Nanoha and Vita B. The forwards C. Signum and Rein (they now know he can unison) D. Fate E. Kinda in everyone's faces atm I can't see how else you can split the team without seriously compromising the defence or completion of any of these goals. Now she can't just ignore one of these points, and come back to it later. You can't treat these enemies like conventional soldiers. They pack serious fire power, it would be like saying oh lets ignore them cruise missiles flying towards the city whilst I try to take out that heavily armed air craft carrier. She can't let the grunts try to hold out, she already knows how easily the tore her forces a new one last time. Actually I am quite please for once a show hasn't had filled out lots of scenes of grunt death and the commander actually tries to give them as much high end support as possible. The forwards being split by the mini rider was due to their lack of experience/concern for the helicopter pilot. Yes they got played. So my question is how else could she have done it? Sacrificed the grunts? Sacrificed the city? Sacrificed the ground force hq?
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2007-09-08, 12:59 | Link #428 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Do a Thread Search and see my previous answers to this dilemma. My Concept of Operations was basically to solve this with speed. If you have to take all targets, your best chance is to grab everyone as a single unit and smash through each objective in turn, thus ensuring each problem gets dealt with under minimal time loss. The attack sequence does the easy, known problems first and leaves the toughest, least known problems to be solved at the end by the whole team, still almost fresh because I preserved their combat power by keeping them in one unit.
More specifically, I chose B->C->D->A&E. This is helped because even if you don't count teleportation (which I was using as a major part of my tactics), everything was in the same general direction of advance - not quite in a line, but still in the same general arc. Further, an inability to prioritize is a bad idea. When we are talking about a Planetary-Threat, all the other threats basically fade into nothingness. Your tactics are like saying that there is a nuclear-armed B-2 and some conventionally armed cruise missiles, and you try to split your forces evenly among them. Of course you don't. You go all out to trying to hunt down and kill the B-2 because the difference in the amount of damage they can do is so vast. |
2007-09-08, 15:06 | Link #429 | ||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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I know I did post this: Quote:
RF6's main chance to gain surprise and regain the initiative was to concentrate their forces at an unexpected point using their superior speed and mobility. Jail's superior intelligence gathering gives him more time to react but by no means does it allow him to automatically redeploy his forces. Jail's left his forces in relatively static positions and given them the orders to return to the Cradle when they've "finished having fun." A lot of his forces either can't be redeployed or will be difficult to redeploy and he has no credible reserves. He's no longer in a very good position to take advantage of the superior intelligence. RF6 had a clear chance to take the initiative back and eliminate Jail's forces in detail before his other forces could redeploy to support them by using a sound plan. Quote:
You can never have enough forces at the decisive point. Quote:
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Spoiler for Episode 22:
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If you're going to devote more than a third of your combat power, then make sure you send enough to win. They don't make progress here. Spoiler for Episode 22:
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The point of launching an attack on an enemy is in order to defeat them. The attacker has the initiative. Launching an attack that is not going to defeat the enemy or help the main force defeat the enemy is worse than not attacking at all. Once you use up those units, they're not going to come back. Quote:
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You're right about one thing. It isn't your enemy doesn't who chooses the decisive point for your attack. It's you.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-08 at 16:48. |
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2007-09-08, 17:35 | Link #430 | |
N/A
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I'm surprised Hayate hasn't taken a giant can opener and opened a giant can of whoopass on everyone yet. I mean...her rank's the second-highest in the book! |
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2007-09-08, 21:05 | Link #431 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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If Hayate had used all available forces to attack the cradle and Jail, they would have a much better chance of success. Sure the cyborgs may take the city and hq, but with their leader and the cradle taken out, it's still game over for them. Not to mention there's a high chance of the forces attacking the city being recalled when it's obvious they're being ignored by the TSA and will be better utilized as reinforcements for the cradle. In the end there's no real need to fight for control of the city or hq.
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2007-09-08, 22:07 | Link #432 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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Sacrificing one thing or another would result in a total contradiction of the TSAB raison de être, since it's ultimate objective isn't to capture interdimensional criminals, but to protect people. Down to the last one. And Hayate knows that |
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2007-09-08, 22:16 | Link #433 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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This is yet another lack of prioritization. However unacceptable the loss of a single (or even a few hundred) Midchildran is, the loss of the whole planet is even more unacceptable. The difference between these two is by many orders of magnitude. Thus, a plan that even marginally increases the chance of handling the Planetary-level threat is superior to the plan that tries to protect everyone. And a plan that actually concentrates force will hardly have just a "marginal increase in probability of success".
Heck, if you feel like you have to deal with every problem, pool everyone together. That ensures the rapid handling of the problems and plenty of time for the difficult problems, which is conveniently placed on the far end of a line in the same general direction. Further, I must say I don't understand about the supposed specific difficulties of anti-sentoukijin combat. I can understand them not having had the chance to fight in the "mountain airs" of AMF. But what's so special about sentoukijin combat methods. In that team is a shooter, a brawler, a swordwielder and a blaster - none of these are categories that are unknown between the Midchildran and Belkan combat methods. Quote:
Spoiler for Ep23:
Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-08 at 22:41. Reason: Extending the answer |
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2007-09-08, 22:48 | Link #434 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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In my opinion if there is a plan that could be foreited, its the get Scagglieti one. That one is the only one where there isn't any critical at stake, and concentrating Fate and Shaha on the Craddle (or having Shaha doing harass attacks so that you keep Scagglieti in his place) might result into better and faster probabilities of everything ending ok. |
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2007-09-08, 22:59 | Link #435 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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2) It is not clear how AMF works, so it is not certain that the Forwards will be completely closed down rather than just find it a little more difficult (like Nanoha and Vita). Quote:
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Further, my plans do include the option to rapidly blast the Numbers into oblivion. Just use fire from the Aces "on the march" before they actually plunge into the Main Line of Resistance. Quote:
Go read our previous answers. |
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2007-09-09, 00:35 | Link #436 | |||
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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2007-09-09, 01:43 | Link #437 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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By the way, the Doc does have a time limit if we assume he wants to leave. Sending someone like Schach against him is death. Just 3 or 7 will make mincemeat out of her. Quote:
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As for Lost Logia, those Numbers and Drones might be able to recover them, but without magical power or special equipment, they'd be hard pressed to break past the seals and reactivate them themselves, certainly not within a short period of time. They should have evacuated them last week anyway. Further, eliminating such uncertainties is why I'm willing to allocate five precious minutes towards their destruction on the march. Quote:
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Besides, if you take the City Defense as such a priority, they should have allocated a one-round bombing strike with the Aces. That should deal the Numbers quite well and make the City Defense much easier. With only the Drones, the chances any of them have the intelligence to Activate Lost Logia falls to zero, and you keep the Forwards fresh. |
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2007-09-09, 11:01 | Link #438 | |||||
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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Well you just described a personal and relative standpoint. Now it would make good to review which are the commanders moral standpoint on this. Yup, it is not to let anyone else die, and to try to save everyone down to the lest person. Otherwise you will get emo and suicidal Hayate by the end. Not to mention that the forces *know* they don't really have to bring down the craddle, they just have to delay it enough time for the TSAB fleet to enter the game and they win. Quote:
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In any case, I just noticed that we have more or less repeating ourselves for 4 or 5 postes now, so I doubt there is any value in us continuing the discussion since we come from irreconcileable moral standpoints so we have more or less reached the point where it is wiser to "agree to disagree" |
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2007-09-09, 12:41 | Link #439 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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If each civilian life is important, then why aren't more forces deployed around the Cradle? Quote:
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2007-09-09, 12:59 | Link #440 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I had built an Ion Cannon withs sufficient defenses to fend off minor assaults. My oponent decided that my Ion Cannon was the biggest threat to his base, as I could target and destroy about 60% of his base, rendering the rest neutrall, and threw everything he had against my Ion Cannon. Now, while he was doing that, I did not sit there and take the punishment. Oh no, I send a nice squad of tanks into his now relatively unprotected base, landing a few more troops for good meassure, and trashed it while he was focussing on my Ion Cannon. My opponent did what you are suggesting now, throwing focuss towards the biggest visible threat. In the end, he lost. Had he send a smaller force, but left more to defend, he could have succeeded in both taking out my Ion Cannon and fending off my assault. Now replace the Ion Cannon with the Cradle. It's the biggest visible threat, but does that mean we should let all other things be? |
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