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kom · 2014-04-23, 15:59

Some general commentary on deus ex machina (some of the points have been already made):

First of all, I do not think of it as having an inherent negative connotation. Obviously it can be disastrous and anyone can cite any number of examples, but it's not always disastrous. Shakespeare is considered the greatest dramatist of all time and has used it occasionally. He also famously used soliloquies, which are the definition of telling and not showing. For more recent examples, think Magnolia for deus ex machina and Deadwood for soliloquies. Both of which are critically acclaimed, and Deadwood is actually considered by many to be the greatest TV show of all time. All that to say; what's important is the way it's used, not the fact itself. I think you'll find that out if you watch them for yourself and I'm sure there are many more examples.

So what's the difference between Netero's Rose and a certain battle in Stardust Crusaders (hope that's not considered a spoiler), or any other bad use of the deus ex machina? The answer, I believe, is multifaceted and complex. But I think it all comes down to the following question: "Does it make sense?".

Making sense does not only mean to be (internally) consistent logically. It also (and maybe more importantly; at least in some cases) means that a character behaves consistently (not to be confused with expectedly), or that there is thematic significance that maybe ties everything the arc/show/film has been about all along, or even changes everything and sets a new status quo.

What Hunter x Hunter did and what other good examples did also is, in some way, to make it the point and not shrug it off (except if shrugging it off is the point!). To say that there is no room for the unexpected is to say that life is not unexpected or that this aspect of life is not to be examined which would be false and limiting. (And, yes, the above would also mean that there is room for inconsistencies even in characters' actions, as long as the inconsistency itself is the point in some way.)

The ways Hunter x Hunter tied the Rose thematically with everything else is already pretty evident (you can refer to some of the posters above) and will become even more so in the future. Togashi literally tells the point to the reader in some later pages of the manga. This is what a large part of the arc is about. It has consequences. It makes sense in terms of characters. It has been foreshadowed (although I don't really care about that personally). It is the story itself. I think that focusing just on the plot specifics is not seeing the forest for the trees. And that's a shame.

Dengar · 2014-04-23, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I'm kind of torn about the nuke. I think thematically it's certainly interesting and cool for the reasons others have already brought up.

My problem with it... and I hate to be the resident guy fixated on power levels, but it just doesn't seem consistent to the powers shown in the series that a human made weapon could take out what is seemingly the most powerful entity thus far introduced. If there was some kind of "Netero's nen weakened him," or "it's a nuke supercharged with nen," then yeah, that'd work for me, I actually like that latter because it's a fusion of human tech and nen... but just a nuke on its own did it?

Suddenly, it seems like the human governments of this world are a lot more powerful than I'd thought in earlier arcs (like the York City arc). If a nuke can destroy the King, then a gun or grenade could probably take out most nen users, and a missile would probably be sufficient to kill most of the strong ones. Shoot a high powered heat seeking missile at Hisoka, or Silva, or Chrollo, and are they toast? Kinda lowers the fun of the super powers for me.

You probably already realised this, but this story still gives me the incredible urge to point out that a nuke is on an entirely different level from a grenade or even a missile.

Not to mention that missiles and grenades cost money.

Clarste · 2014-04-23, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

What makes Nen users powerful is versatility and skill, not simply sheer strength.

Frankly, I think you could summarize their advantage as simply "speed". Kurapika was catching bullets with his chain right after he learned nen. That's not even using his "Red Eyes cheat-mode" or "unbeatable against specific people" powers. That's just how fast he is. It would be very difficult to fight a nen user with conventional weaponry because they all have absurd ninja reflexes at the baseline.

Eclipze · 2014-04-23, 17:03

I actually consider the angel/revive "card" of the Greed Island far more of a ridiculous deux ex machina than the use of the nuke, considering that the entire game actually took place in the real world rather than some other plane of existence (which essentially means that all the cards are products of nen). We are constantly being told, even in the current arc, that you cannot bring back the dead, yet the card was capable of doing so, even if you argue that it was within a certain time frame from death.

I hated how it felt like Bomber's group got off so easily despite the mass-murdering they had done as well, but eh, its more of a personal complaint.

MCAL · 2014-04-23, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarste

Frankly, I think you could summarize their advantage as simply "speed". Kurapika was catching bullets with his chain right after he learned nen.

I'm trying to remember the time that happened and I am drawing a blank.

Clarste · 2014-04-23, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCAL

I'm trying to remember the time that happened and I am drawing a blank.

When he was applying for his job as a mafia bodyguard. The first test was locking the applicants in a mansion and attacking them with nen puppets. Some of the puppets were using guns and he blocked them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I actually consider the angel/revive "card" of the Greed Island far more of a ridiculous deux ex machina than the use of the nuke, considering that the entire game actually took place in the real world rather than some other plane of existence (which essentially means that all the cards are products of nen). We are constantly being told, even in the current arc, that you cannot bring back the dead, yet the card was capable of doing so, even if you argue that it was within a certain time frame from death.

I hated how it felt like Bomber's group got off so easily despite the mass-murdering they had done as well, but eh, its more of a personal complaint.

It couldn't revive people from the dead, only heal serious injuries. No one was ever brain dead when they used it, and when the billionaire's love interest died he immediately canceled the reward. Also, it's implied that its strength comes from the heavy restrictions imposed on it by the game itself: Greed Island is itself a restriction that gives its cards extra power.

Also not really a Deus Ex Machina since they talk about it more than anything else in that arc.

Dengar · 2014-04-23, 17:44

Those cards only exist within the confines of Greed Island (except possibly as a reward for the winner) and require considerable effort to obtain. Not to mention the card limit, and the fact that there were 12-something skilled nen-users working together on the game. We've been over the fact that restrictions and circumstances can alter the effectiveness of Nen.

ChainLegacy · 2014-04-23, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

You probably already realised this, but this story still gives me the incredible urge to point out that a nuke is on an entirely different level from a grenade or even a missile.

Not to mention that missiles and grenades cost money.

Of course, but (and I admit I'm not a weapons expert by any means), the difference in strength has more to do with the blast radius, as far as I know. A powerful missile may have the same degree of destructive capability, just confined to a much smaller area. Even if I'm completely mistaken in this regard, you still have the matter of power scale - the King is shown to be pretty much the pinnacle of raw power.

Certainly, nen users are still incredibly powerful and versatile, but now it seems pretty obvious to me that a well disciplined and equipped military force could decimate an entire battalion of elite nen users, or, for that matter, could easily have decimated the chimera ants.

Student no.0 · 2014-04-23, 20:58

If the King doesn't end up surviving a 'common' nuke, then I'll be pretty uncomfortable with the idea of an average nuke > Zero Hand (especially with how freaking hax it is already). Then again, who knows? I usually end up having my doubts cleared up by the time things get properly explained in about the next episode or so.

Rasher · 2014-04-23, 21:27

Really liked the way this fight ended, although having strong nukes kinda ruins the threat of upcoming villains. I'm also disappointed in the King not showing any nen abilities (if he really died).

Personally, I'm hoping the King is just gravely wounded and remains hidden for a few arcs, until he returns with powerful nen abilities and becomes the final villain of the series.

Dengar · 2014-04-24, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Of course, but (and I admit I'm not a weapons expert by any means), the difference in strength has more to do with the blast radius, as far as I know. A powerful missile may have the same degree of destructive capability, just confined to a much smaller area. Even if I'm completely mistaken in this regard, you still have the matter of power scale - the King is shown to be pretty much the pinnacle of raw power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student no.0

If the King doesn't end up surviving a 'common' nuke, then I'll be pretty uncomfortable with the idea of an average nuke > Zero Hand (especially with how freaking hax it is already). Then again, who knows? I usually end up having my doubts cleared up by the time things get properly explained in about the next episode or so.

So.... This is the reason people dismiss a nuke as "too normal"?

You people really have no idea what a nuke actually does, do you?

hamazura · 2014-04-24, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

So.... This is the reason people dismiss a nuke as "too normal"?

You people really have no idea what a nuke actually does, do you?

they never watch any of nuclear radiation incident news on tv

Dengar · 2014-04-24, 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamazura

they never watch any of nuclear radiation incident news on tv

It's not even the radiation. The explosion is caused by a reaction to all too dissimilar to what fuels a sun (yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's still quite similar), except on a much smaller scale. If you think a nuke is just a matter of scale, even ignoring the issue of radiation for a second, then you really haven't done the research.

hamazura · 2014-04-24, 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

It's not even the radiation. The explosion is caused by a reaction to all too dissimilar to what fuels a sun (yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's still quite similar), except on a much smaller scale. If you think a nuke is just a matter of scale, even ignoring the issue of radiation for a second, then you really haven't done the research.

isnt it the same thing? -_-
nuclear fission or other shit that contain dangerous radioactive something...
thats why accelerator said he cant survive nuclear, not the blast but the after effect.

Dengar · 2014-04-24, 02:46

Accelerator? Sorry you lost me there.

Also, lets not get into the semantics of whether or not it's the same thing.

Clarste · 2014-04-24, 02:55

The physics of it are cool and all, but honestly it isn't really that different. In the end, a nuclear reactor boils water to make a turbine spin. A nuclear bomb creates a lot of heat and an expanding shockwave. The effect is still a matter of scale. The physics are only relevant insofar as it creates a very large effect with very little fuel.

Gan_HOPE326 · 2014-04-24, 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarste

The physics of it are cool and all, but honestly it isn't really that different. In the end, a nuclear reactor boils water to make a turbine spin. A nuclear bomb creates a lot of heat and an expanding shockwave. The effect is still a matter of scale. The physics are only relevant insofar as it creates a very large effect with very little fuel.

Ok, physicist here.

True, the difference is mostly a matter of scale. But if you think that "scale" is a small thing you're dead wrong. The temperature reached in the core of a nuclear explosion do not even come CLOSE to anything else you could experience. The Wikipedia page for thermobaric bombs (the hottest non-nuclear bombs out there) talk about temperatures of 3000 C. The core of an atomic explosion easily comes into the MILLIONS of degrees. That's much, much, MUCH more. It's a lot of heat to withstand if it is fired at point blank range from you. When the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, the pilot of the airplane was all but incredulous that they could destroy a whole city with a half a ton bomb - with conventional explosives, the same thing would hardly bring down a building. The shockwave from an atomic bomb travels at speeds that are absolutely uncanny.

Technically speaking, if an atomic bomb explodes next to you, it'll vaporize you, it'll break all of your molecules in single atoms, and then it will proceed to strip said atoms of all their electrons. It will then irradiate them with neutrons and alpha particles, thus transmuting them into different atoms and making them radioactive. Finally, it will disperse them over an area of kilometres due to the sheer power of its shockwave. You'll end up being a bunch of random atoms, different from the ones which originally composed your body, scattered over an area big enough to cover a whole city. Have fun with that thought.

***relentlessflame*** · 2014-04-24, 03:22

If you've read the manga, you may not so much as suggest the slightest hint about any future content in the anime, no matter how cute or sneaky you think you're being. If you give any sort of hint or spoiler, you will likely find yourself banned. Consider this the only warning.

Clarste · 2014-04-24, 03:24

Scale is not a small thing. The universe is big. Much bigger than a peanut, I'm told. I can understand that there are things that I can never properly, intuitively understand, because they are so far beyond human experience. But that doesn't change the fact that scale is scale. It's not a qualitative difference, it's a quantitative difference. A huge one.

That said, if I think about it a little bit it seems like the properties of air as a gas would affect the resulting explosion in nonlinear ways.

Dengar · 2014-04-24, 03:55

Okay, I may have used the term for "scale" a little wrong. I simply read the matter of "scale" as "An a-bomb is like a grenade, only bigger", which sounds just plain stupid. Yes okay I'll admit that there's still scale involved. "Scale is scale?" though? An a-bomb doesn't just make a BIGGER boom. It makes one, as Gan_HOPE explained, that is ridiculously more devastating. The "booms" are (almost) incomparable. (thanks for that btw, I'm no physicist here, so all I know is hearsay)

We're talking about a bomb that pretty much destroys any matter at the atomic level. No other explosive does that.

Any matter.

Yet you still find it unbelievable that it could destroy someone whose kung fu is stronger than yours?

2014-04-24, 03:22	Link #4478
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 42	If you've read the manga, you may not so much as suggest the slightest hint about any future content in the anime, no matter how cute or sneaky you think you're being. If you give any sort of hint or spoiler, you will likely find yourself banned. Consider this the only warning. __________________ [...]

2014-04-23, 15:59	Link #4461
kom Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2014	Some general commentary on deus ex machina (some of the points have been already made): First of all, I do not think of it as having an inherent negative connotation. Obviously it can be disastrous and anyone can cite any number of examples, but it's not always disastrous. Shakespeare is considered the greatest dramatist of all time and has used it occasionally. He also famously used soliloquies, which are the definition of telling and not showing. For more recent examples, think Magnolia for deus ex machina and Deadwood for soliloquies. Both of which are critically acclaimed, and Deadwood is actually considered by many to be the greatest TV show of all time. All that to say; what's important is the way it's used, not the fact itself. I think you'll find that out if you watch them for yourself and I'm sure there are many more examples. So what's the difference between Netero's Rose and a certain battle in Stardust Crusaders (hope that's not considered a spoiler), or any other bad use of the deus ex machina? The answer, I believe, is multifaceted and complex. But I think it all comes down to the following question: "Does it make sense?". Making sense does not only mean to be (internally) consistent logically. It also (and maybe more importantly; at least in some cases) means that a character behaves consistently (not to be confused with expectedly), or that there is thematic significance that maybe ties everything the arc/show/film has been about all along, or even changes everything and sets a new status quo. What Hunter x Hunter did and what other good examples did also is, in some way, to make it the point and not shrug it off (except if shrugging it off is the point!). To say that there is no room for the unexpected is to say that life is not unexpected or that this aspect of life is not to be examined which would be false and limiting. (And, yes, the above would also mean that there is room for inconsistencies even in characters' actions, as long as the inconsistency itself is the point in some way.) The ways Hunter x Hunter tied the Rose thematically with everything else is already pretty evident (you can refer to some of the posters above) and will become even more so in the future. Togashi literally tells the point to the reader in some later pages of the manga. This is what a large part of the arc is about. It has consequences. It makes sense in terms of characters. It has been foreshadowed (although I don't really care about that personally). It is the story itself. I think that focusing just on the plot specifics is not seeing the forest for the trees. And that's a shame.

2014-04-23, 17:03	Link #4464
Eclipze Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore	I actually consider the angel/revive "card" of the Greed Island far more of a ridiculous deux ex machina than the use of the nuke, considering that the entire game actually took place in the real world rather than some other plane of existence (which essentially means that all the cards are products of nen). We are constantly being told, even in the current arc, that you cannot bring back the dead, yet the card was capable of doing so, even if you argue that it was within a certain time frame from death. I hated how it felt like Bomber's group got off so easily despite the mass-murdering they had done as well, but eh, its more of a personal complaint.

2014-04-23, 17:44	Link #4467
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 40	Those cards only exist within the confines of Greed Island (except possibly as a reward for the winner) and require considerable effort to obtain. Not to mention the card limit, and the fact that there were 12-something skilled nen-users working together on the game. We've been over the fact that restrictions and circumstances can alter the effectiveness of Nen.

2014-04-23, 20:58	Link #4469
Student no.0 Part-time Warrior Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: First star to the left, you should go there sometime.	If the King doesn't end up surviving a 'common' nuke, then I'll be pretty uncomfortable with the idea of an average nuke > Zero Hand (especially with how freaking hax it is already). Then again, who knows? I usually end up having my doubts cleared up by the time things get properly explained in about the next episode or so.

2014-04-23, 21:27	Link #4470
Rasher Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	Really liked the way this fight ended, although having strong nukes kinda ruins the threat of upcoming villains. I'm also disappointed in the King not showing any nen abilities (if he really died). Personally, I'm hoping the King is just gravely wounded and remains hidden for a few arcs, until he returns with powerful nen abilities and becomes the final villain of the series.

2014-04-24, 02:46	Link #4475
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 40	Accelerator? Sorry you lost me there. Also, lets not get into the semantics of whether or not it's the same thing.

2014-04-24, 02:55	Link #4476
Clarste Human Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 38	The physics of it are cool and all, but honestly it isn't really that different. In the end, a nuclear reactor boils water to make a turbine spin. A nuclear bomb creates a lot of heat and an expanding shockwave. The effect is still a matter of scale. The physics are only relevant insofar as it creates a very large effect with very little fuel.

2014-04-24, 03:24	Link #4479
Clarste Human Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 38	Scale is not a small thing. The universe is big. Much bigger than a peanut, I'm told. I can understand that there are things that I can never properly, intuitively understand, because they are so far beyond human experience. But that doesn't change the fact that scale is scale. It's not a qualitative difference, it's a quantitative difference. A huge one. That said, if I think about it a little bit it seems like the properties of air as a gas would affect the resulting explosion in nonlinear ways.

2014-04-24, 03:55	Link #4480
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 40	Okay, I may have used the term for "scale" a little wrong. I simply read the matter of "scale" as "An a-bomb is like a grenade, only bigger", which sounds just plain stupid. Yes okay I'll admit that there's still scale involved. "Scale is scale?" though? An a-bomb doesn't just make a BIGGER boom. It makes one, as Gan_HOPE explained, that is ridiculously more devastating. The "booms" are (almost) incomparable. (thanks for that btw, I'm no physicist here, so all I know is hearsay) We're talking about a bomb that pretty much destroys any matter at the atomic level. No other explosive does that. Any matter. Yet you still find it unbelievable that it could destroy someone whose kung fu is stronger than yours?