(L) Fairy Tail Manga Discussion Thread

[White_Pumpkin]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm betting Grey leaves Lucy and ends up facing Ultear, learning whose daughter she is, but getting beaten. That way, sometime in the future, he can run up against Lyon and tell him Ul had a daughter.

Um correct me if I'm wrong but I though Lyon already knew Ul had a daughter? He asked her why he wasn't enough to replace her dead daughter, and while I know that was in the anime, I swear I saw it in the manga too. So if Gray didn't know about it and told Lyon it would be more, "Wait her daughter is alive?!" "You knew she had a daughter?!"

If Gray and Ultear did face each other, chances are good the Ultear will almost kill Gray. When/if she learns her mother trained Gray, then Gray will really be in deep. I see a lot of 'mommy never loved me' dripping from her. Or Gray will make Ultear see the error of her ways, just to screw with us.

I see an epic Lucy/Leo Vs. Caprico coming up. Granted, the goat is obviously strong but Loki is suppossed to be the Zodiac leader, so eventually the goat's going down. How Lucy will deal with facing another Steller Spirit like this will be with the usual tears and winning the spirit over in the end. If Loki can't fight Caprico, I hope we see Scorpio come out. We haven't seen him fight yet, that I remember, and I really want to see what he can do.

...God Slaying magic? Are you cerial? Wow. I'm at a loss for words on this. I hope Natsu gets a new power up to beat the lameness into the archives of 'don't use this power again.'

That's my 2cents so far.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by White_Pumpkin

I hope Natsu gets a new power up to beat the lameness into the archives of 'don't use this power again.

I don't. I'm tired of Natsu's track record of winning by getting really mad.

On another note, I don't think Laxus will really be accepted as Guild Master until the Raven Tail arc.

[kk2extreme]

Gohan's SSJ2 transformation, wait wrong thread

[Kafriel]

Natsu's track record of winning by getting really mad.

He only won that way against Eligor and Luxus, really.
- Deliora was already dead.
- He used Sagittarius' flames to beat Gazille.
- Etherion to beat Gerard.
- Natsu used Roar! It's super-effective! Cobra fainted...
- Golden flame for Zero.
- Teamwork to beat Metal Gear Faust.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

He only won that way against Eligor and Luxus, really.
- Deliora was already dead.
- He used Sagittarius' flames to beat Gazille.
- Etherion to beat Gerard.
- Natsu used Roar! It's super-effective! Cobra fainted...
- Golden flame for Zero.
- Teamwork to beat Metal Gear Faust.

Let me rephrase: Natsu getting really mad and mustering up strength out of nowhere when by all accounts he should have been dead.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by White_Pumpkin

Um correct me if I'm wrong but I though Lyon already knew Ul had a daughter? He asked her why he wasn't enough to replace her dead daughter, and while I know that was in the anime, I swear I saw it in the manga too. So if Gray didn't know about it and told Lyon it would be more, "Wait her daughter is alive?!" "You knew she had a daughter?!"

That's pretty much what I meant.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Let me rephrase: Natsu getting really mad and mustering up strength out of nowhere when by all accounts he should have been dead.

You're still forgetting all the times when he was beaten. Erza apparently beat him several times, Gild defeated him just by showing the difference in power. That bird guy in the tower also beat Natsu. Lyon beat Natsu in that first encounter, getting that ice block on him.

Natsu isn't the strongest, and does get beaten. He is, however, the main hero, so finding his inner strength and pressing on when all seems lost are the tools of the trade. You've seen it a thousand times. We also have fire greatly rejuvenating him, so his "sudden summoning of strength" isn't totally unexplained. He just goes back up to 100%, or maybe even 150% temporarily, depending on how much fire he takes in.

If it makes you feel better, even if he somehow defeats Zancrow, I don't see him beating Hades, so I believe he's going to get beat down again soon.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're still forgetting all the times when he was beaten. Erza apparently beat him several times, Gild defeated him just by showing the difference in power. That bird guy in the tower also beat Natsu. Lyon beat Natsu in that first encounter, getting that ice block on him.

I'm fully prepared to admit that. But those instances happen far less often than the whole unstoppable rage bit.

Natsu isn't the strongest, and does get beaten. He is, however, the main hero, so finding his inner strength and pressing on when all seems lost are the tools of the trade. You've seen it a thousand times. We also have fire greatly rejuvenating him, so his "sudden summoning of strength" isn't totally unexplained. He just goes back up to 100%, or maybe even 150% temporarily, depending on how much fire he takes in.

And it wouldn't bother me as much if I didn't see it a thousand times in practically every manga and anime out there. I'm fully aware it's the sine qua non of the genre, but I'd appreciate a story were the hero either loses or wins, not almost loses and then wins at the last second because of determination alone.

If it makes you feel better, even if he somehow defeats Zancrow, I don't see him beating Hades, so I believe he's going to get beat down again soon.

Honestly, I don't see anyone beating Hades at this point other than Zeref himself.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And it wouldn't bother me as much if I didn't see it a thousand times in practically every manga and anime out there. I'm fully aware it's the sine qua non of the genre, but I'd appreciate a story were the hero either loses or wins, not almost loses and then wins at the last second because of determination alone.

You admit he isn't unstoppable, and that he's been beaten so what's the problem? Yes, the hero is always in a worse position early on, and if the writer is good, they've made you feel that the bad guys are overpowering and that the good guys can't possibly win. There has to be a real sense that they could lose for dramatic purposes. In most fights, if Natsu lost, he'd probably be dead. We'd no longer have a story, then.

Yes, it's a bit cliche and a trope, but you can't write good stories without them. What matters is not that something is cliche or a trope, but that it is executed well enough.

If you're looking for FT to break new ground in this regard, you'll be waiting awhile. We acknowledge fully that it wills tay within certain bounds as dictated by the genre, but what brings us here, is the fact that it still executes the story well. It's more complex that simple shonen stories where the plot exists to power up the heroes and move them to the next fight.

And who knows? We'll probably see FT beaten badly here, Natsu included, and forced to retreat. I wonder if that will satisfy you, though?

Natsu, like every other hero, wins because they don't give up. If they did, they wouldn't be the hero, would they?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You admit he isn't unstoppable, and that he's been beaten so what's the problem? Yes, the hero is always in a worse position early on, and if the writer is good, they've made you feel that the bad guys are overpowering and that the good guys can't possibly win. There has to be a real sense that they could lose for dramatic purposes. In most fights, if Natsu lost, he'd probably be dead. We'd no longer have a story, then.

The problem is that he's won fights he shouldn't have won.

And who knows? We'll probably see FT beaten badly here, Natsu included, and forced to retreat. I wonder if that will satisfy you, though?

You make me sound like one of the trolls on another sub-forum I frequent.

Natsu, like every other hero, wins because they don't give up. If they did, they wouldn't be the hero, would they?

But that doesn't mean heroes have to always win by brute force alone. Strategy, tactics, and logistics should be a major factor as well, in addition to who can hit the hardest or move the fastest.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

The problem is that he's won fights he shouldn't have won.

I can see your viewpoint in that. For the Cobra fight, he was well and truly beaten, and only won by screaming at the top of his lungs. It was a bit surprising, and the fight was a bit unsatisfying for me because of that, but there you have it.

You make me sound like one of the trolls on another sub-forum I frequent.

Was not my intent, but I admit I do get a sense that you're upset that the hero is ultimately triumphing. With all due respect, this is pretty much complaining that the sun is rising. If the hero loses an important fight, it usually means you're in an incredibly dark series with a bad end, or the story will pretty much be over.

But that doesn't mean heroes have to always win by brute force alone. Strategy, tactics, and logistics should be a major factor as well, in addition to who can hit the hardest or move the fastest.

Natsu hasn't won all his fights by brute force; sometimes he showcases some tactical thinking. But you can't expect him to win all his fights that way; you have to expect he's going to win some fights by brute force. In other words, winning because he just won't give up, and will keep trying again and again.

Daniel, in the Karate Kid, won a fight he should have lost. His leg was severely injured, and yet he went on anyway. Was there something wrong about that?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Was not my intent, but I admit I do get a sense that you're upset that the hero is ultimately triumphing. With all due respect, this is pretty much complaining that the sun is rising. If the hero loses an important fight, it usually means you're in an incredibly dark series with a bad end, or the story will pretty much be over.

I'm not complaining that the hero is winning. I just prefer it when the hero earns his happy ending. Suffering some kind of loss and learning some kind of life lesson just make the happy ending better, in my opinion. It shows how indomitable the human spirit is, and how there's always room to grow.

Natsu hasn't won all his fights by brute force; sometimes he showcases some tactical thinking. But you can't expect him to win all his fights that way; you have to expect he's going to win some fights by brute force. In other words, winning because he just won't give up, and will keep trying again and again.

And I can appreciate and even respect that, but what are you supposed to call it when by all rights the hero shouldn't even be able to move? I know Natsu is a Dragon Slayer and so is made of tougher stuff than most, but even he has a limit that should have been reached several times before.

Daniel, in the Karate Kid, won a fight he should have lost. His leg was severely injured, and yet he went on anyway. Was there something wrong about that?

I'm afraid I've never seen it, so could you be more specific?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

The problem is that he's won fights he shouldn't have won.

Like every other shounen hero in existence.

But that doesn't mean heroes have to always win by brute force alone. Strategy, tactics, and logistics should be a major factor as well, in addition to who can hit the hardest or move the fastest.

Ditto here

------

Natsu doesn't necessarily rely purely on brute strength to win his fights.
He has fought intelligently on multiple occasions, even if he inevitably is forced to use raw power against many of his opponents.

His powers are emotion based, so it isn't surprising that getting really angry gives Natsu the power necessary to win difficult fights.

He is also the ever so popular "idiot hero" type, so determination and anger are about the strongest attributes that kind of hero has, they aren't a strategic thinker by any means.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Like every other shounen hero in existence.

Which is why it's so damn annoying to see the same formula being repeated over and over.

Natsu doesn't necessarily rely purely on brute strength to win his fights.
He has fought intelligently on multiple occasions, even if he inevitably is forced to use raw power against many of his opponents.

And as I said I can respect the situations were raw power is necessary, but power without thought is just mindless rampage.

His powers are emotion based, so it isn't surprising that getting really angry gives Natsu the power necessary to win difficult fights.

And I only have a problem with that when said increase suddenly lets him curb-stomp someone he couldn't even scratch before.

He is also the ever so popular "idiot hero" type, so determination and anger are about the strongest attributes that kind of hero has, they aren't a strategic thinker by any means.

And I hate that type, but unfortunately it seems to be becoming more popular than ever.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

I'm not complaining that the hero is winning. I just prefer it when the hero earns his happy ending. Suffering some kind of loss and learning some kind of life lesson just make the happy ending better, in my opinion. It shows how indomitable the human spirit is, and how there's always room to grow.

Isn't that what we pretty much got with Gildartz?

And I can appreciate and even respect that, but what are you supposed to call it when by all rights the hero shouldn't even be able to move? I know Natsu is a Dragon Slayer and so is made of tougher stuff than most, but even he has a limit that should have been reached several times before.

As someone said above, Natsu's powers seemed to be linked to his emotions. Thus, it's not that out of bounds for him to get stronger. Hell, a Saiyan is supposed to get stronger when they're defeated; maybe something similar is happening with the fire Natsu eats or the more he uses his magic. So as the fight goes on, if he recharges, then yes, he can beat the opponent he couldn't before.

But he hasn't curb-stomped anyone. Most of his wins have been "just barely."

I'm afraid I've never seen it, so could you be more specific?

You have't seen The Karate Kid? Mr. Miyagi of "Wax on, wax off" fame? It's a classic, and I suggest you watch it. The second movie wasn't bad, but the third one continued the downward trend.

Daniel is the proverbial underdog, but learns karate from Mr. Miyagi and goes on to beat his tormentors in a tournament.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Isn't that what we pretty much got with Gildartz?

Natsu never stood a chance and indeed learned a life lesson, but he was never in any real danger. It was like a teacher disciplining his student.

But he hasn't curb-stomped anyone. Most of his wins have been "just barely."

Which is the result of getting up when he shouldn't have been able to.

You have't seen The Karate Kid? Mr. Miyagi of "Wax on, wax off" fame? It's a classic, and I suggest you watch it. The second movie wasn't bad, but the third one continued the downward trend.

Daniel is the proverbial underdog, but learns karate from Mr. Miyagi and goes on to beat his tormentors in a tournament.

I heard of it alright, just never watched it.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Perhaps you missed the last chapter where Natsu got his butt handed to him by Zancrow? And a little before that when he was no match for Gildartz? And all the other previous times he was beaten down, and sometimes barely pulled out a win(ie, Cobra)? And about how he's no match for people like Erza or Makarov? Or the Edolas arc where it took all three DS's working together to beat the enemy?

He's not invincible. Yes, he's the hero, so of course he's eventually going to win. However, it's not going to be as simple as you make it out to be.

But yes, the whole point of Dragon Slayers is that it's a lost form of magic, and so powerful no human could wield it. It really is a powerful form of magic that Natsu is slowly evolving (and Gadjeel and Wendy). You are still reading a shonen manga, so it does retain some of the trappings, but it's not as blatant as DBZ, One Piece, or Bleach.

Fairy Tail is much more blatant in that regard than One Piece or even Naruto.

Natsu is basically in permanent SSJ form as a Fire Dragon Slayer. The difference is that in this, he has been SSJ the whole time. In most Natsu fights I never feel any tension, because it always feels like he just needs to get mad and rampage over his opponent. The opponent always feels like the underdog against a Dragon Slayer.

Dragon Slayer feels like the most fleshed out, highest "rank" power, and kind of overshadows everything else, though not as much as SSJ overshadowed non-SSJ in DBZ. Even when Natsu "struggles" for part of a fight, it never feels like he won't just rampage in the end, because the opponent isn't intimidating enough. Even Zancrow isn't intimidating yet, so either Natsu needs to crush him or we need some good writing to show why Zancrow could win. WHY would Zancrow be able to compete with the Fire Dragon Slayer? Flesh it out some more or the fight is dull.

The Gildartz fight was disappointing, because the author had the chance to show that Natsu can't always win by rampaging, but instead had him stop without trying. Sure, he admitted his loss, but that isn't the same as raging and failing. Not to mention, Natsu can't use his full rage on Gildartz or Erza.

Luffy and Naruto can't just win by raging. Both of them have lost when going all out, and both of them have faced opponents who seemed to be on a higher level. Actually the closest equivalent to Dragon Slayer in Naruto is probably Sharingan, which Naruto doesn't even have.

[Kaijo]

Then you pretty much admit that Natsu has lost while in "permanent SSJ" form, so to speak.

Go through the manga again, and you'll notice that Natsu has racked up plenty of losses; I've only mentioned a small fraction of them. And you really think he didn't give it his all in every fight, like against Erza, then you really don't understand Natsu.

So really, this whole lone of argument is moot. You have this mindset that somehow Natsu has always won, when the facts don't support that.

And yes, both Naruto and Luffy can win by raging. No, it doesn't happen too much, but they were both very much characters who don't give up, and manage to win fights through determination. I mean, seriously, Naruto has the damn fox inside him! Raging has brought it out of him to smack opponents around before. But this isn't the thread to discuss them.

Suffice it to say, Natsu has lost plenty, and since his powers are emotion-based, a win by him increasing the intensity of his emotions is very much plausible.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Was that directed at Ermes Marana or me?

[Kaijo]

Partially to him, but also the argument in general that Natsu manages to win all his fights, when he actually doesn't. I already can name off a half-a-dozen losses off the top of my head. I'm sure if I went back through the manga/anime, I could pull up more.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Partially to him, but also the argument in general that Natsu manages to win all his fights, when he actually doesn't. I already can name off a half-a-dozen losses off the top of my head. I'm sure if I went back through the manga/anime, I could pull up more.

I never said he won all of his fights, just that some of them he only won because he's the hero.