Character Discussion - Lelouch

[synaesthetic]

I'm not judging characters by double standards, blade.

I'm judging characters by meta-fictional standards. I am judging them as if they are not, in fact, real people. Because they aren't real people. I like who I like based on how much they entertain me.

And you know what? Lelouch entertains the hell out of me. I watch Youtube clips of his hammier moments just for the lulz. C.C. entertains me because she's so damn snarky. Charles entertains me because ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!

Kallen, Kaguya, Shirley and ORANGE-KUN and many more. They all entertain me, so I like them.

The characters I dislike, I dislike for the same reason--they don't entertain me. Suzaku frustrates me (though I don't really dislike him). Ougi annoys me. Asahina annoys me, though I still like him because he's a badass. Schneizel annoys me because he's a faux magnificent bastard; he looks like one but doesn't have the depth. Lelouch even calls him on it.

Other characters I have no opinion on.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

now, the reason i point this out is simple
if you say that lelouch is more sympathetically presented, and so you are willing to forgive HIM for far worse then what you would be willing to forgive OTHER characters
then you are saying "I have Double standards"
i judge lelouch by ONE set of standards, and everyone else by a DIFFERENT set of standards

See, I don't "judge" the characters at all.
I see their mistakes and keep them in mind, simply adding them to what I know about a character.
No double standards there.

don't point out "he's more sympathetic" or "he's doing it for world peace" or "he gave his life"
this argument is not a CONTRAST to the double standards
it is not something that NEGATES the fact that there are double standards
this is the CAUSE of the double standards
the fact that he is more sympathetic is the REASON WHY you are WILLING to apply double standards to lelouch's case
but if you judge him by the same standards that you judge ougi, or cornellia
you will find that lelouch is a MUCH more horrible and monstrus character then any of them

Ah, some sort of consequentalism?
The thing is, I can look at a cruel, heartless murderer and a mass murderer who did it to change the world and think better of the latter. He did things much worse, maybe but if I like his personality - which is unlikely in real life, but common in anime - I can not only like him, but also feel sympathy for him.

you and i can still LIKE him
but we cant pretend that we ARENT treating with using double standards

So how much you like a character should only depend on the pureness of their actions?
I never knew Euphie was your favourite. I say she was much more moral than, let's say, Kallen.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

So how much you like a character should only depend on the pureness of their actions?
I never knew Euphie was your favourite. I say she was much more moral than, let's say, Kallen.

Why do you make easy and good points lately? 8D

[snowdevil_crow]

True... fiction and the way its portrayed is all (usually) for the audience to sympathize with and understand the main character. Look at Das Parfum, look at One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. A murderer and a convicted rapist as main characters. And yet we sympathize with them. Why? Because we're supposed to. Because that's the way the creators portrayed them (talking about the movie in Das Parfum's case).

So even if they are double standards, they're double standards that we, as an audience, are meant to have. And there's nothing wrong with us having them.

ETA: Also, joining nogitsune on the not judging characters thing. <3

ETA2: Though I guess a case could be made that Euphy's actions weren't entirely pure or unselfishly motivated... >_>

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Why do you make easy and good points lately? 8D

Because I'm awesome? xD
Or maybe it's all a plot, and I just want to get more hugs out of you.
*holds out her arms and tries the puppy dog look*

[yvj]

I don't believe I am running with double standards.

I acknowledge Lelouch was a monster. But I'm willing to objectively look at his actions in a broader sense then certain other characters based on reasoning on intent and the results of his actions.

Cornelia- motivated by power and glory of an oppressive ruling class. She didn't get sympathetic until she turned on her brother

Bradly: Got off on killing

Mao: I feel bad about Mao

Charles: I hate individuality--I love ruling the world and playing mind games with my kids

V.V My brother is not paying attention to me. Wah Wah


Edit: Bonus I like his character

[bladeofdarkness]

so far we have 5 responses
and only snowdevil_crow has the guts to even admit that he has double standards

meanwhile
synaesthetic and sky are both arguing that double standards dont exist in fiction
when in fact double standards have nothing to do with the subject matter whatsoever because you can have them about anything

yvj had missed the whole point about reasoning and intent not being a counter to double standards, but rather their CAUSE

and Nogitsune is not only denying this (despite decalring loudly that she is a shameless lelouch fangirl who'd love him no matter what)
but also by deflecting and turning the quesion back at me

people
the first step to solve a case of cognitive dissonance (double standards) is to be aware of it

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Because I'm awesome? xD
Or maybe it's all a plot, and I just want to get more hugs out of you.
*holds out her arms and tries the puppy dog look*

Hey, that is my line, whut? 8DD

Again, fiction works like this. In this case, people adore Lelouch, because of all his craziness, epicness, fabulouss-ness, because the outcome of his actions was not selfish. Yes, he did shit and atrocities, but people still love him. Pretty much all the fandom, that's gotta mean, that the chara was unique with traits that appealed to the audience and fascinated it.
On the moral-field, he was a huge ass, but an ass with a story and a goal. And family-friend virtues and weaknesses, that made him more human-ish, and not a monster judged by his actions.

[synaesthetic]

I don't know how I can say this any simpler. Just because I think a villainous character is evil does not mean I automatically hate them. They're not real. I can enjoy them because THEY ENTERTAIN ME.

[bladeofdarkness]

and i dont know how to say this any simpler
the fact that you LIKE a character or that they are portrayed as sympathetic
is not a COUNTER to double standards
its the reason WHY you have double standards

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so far we have 4 responses
and only snowdevil_crow has the guts to even admit that he has double standards

meanwhile
synaesthetic and sky are both arguing that double standards dont exist in fiction
when in fact double standards have nothing to do with the subject matter whatsoever because you can have them about anything

and Nogitsune is not only denying this (despite decalring loudly that she is a shameless lelouch fangirl who'd love him no matter what)
but also by deflecting and turning the quesion back at me

people
the first step to solve a case of cognitive dissonance (double standards) is to be aware of it

Chris Rock had this joke about OJ Simpson.

"I'm not saying he should have killed her, but I understand."

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so far we have 4 responses
and only snowdevil_crow has the guts to even admit that he has double standards

meanwhile
synaesthetic and sky are both arguing that double standards dont exist in fiction
when in fact double standards have nothing to do with the subject matter whatsoever because you can have them about anything

and Nogitsune is not only denying this (despite decalring loudly that she is a shameless lelouch fangirl who'd love him no matter what)
but also by deflecting and turning the quesion back at me

people
the first step to solve a case of cognitive dissonance (double standards) is to be aware of it

Lol, sorry what do you think? That you are the judge on the court? This is going a bit too far now blade.

Personally, i do not have double standards. I admit, that i am being fun-biased on Lelouch and never fail to jump and say "Lulu, GOD EPIC!!11" but when it comes to judge his actions, i will say he did shit there and there. But that still, is not only that. An action is not judged only by the nature of it, there are triggers, goals, aims and so on.

And still, in goddamn fiction, you can classify something as dick-ish material, and still not be able to hate the one that made it, exactly because that dick-ish material, was more than this. It had a certain goal, that was not a selfish one. Case with Lelouch.

FICTION =/= REAL LIFE btw

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and Nogitsune is not only denying this (despite decalring loudly that she is a shameless lelouch fangirl who'd love him no matter what)

Errr, I never said I'd love him no matter what.
I love him as the character he was presented as, simple as that. And he certainly wasn't Bradley.

but also by deflecting and turning the quesion back at me

And you completely ignore my point.
Show me my double-standards concerning this matter. Or why Kallen is more moral/likeable than Euphie.
Or let's just leave it at that, because by now your point seems completely moot to me.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Hey, that is my line, whut? 8DD

Omg, one of us is sitting in the other's head and eating pizza! xD

[snowdevil_crow]

Ah, but nogitsune isn't judging any of the characters, so he/she can't be having double standards in how he/she judges Lelouch vs other characters.

In any case, there's no real need to solve the cognitive dissonance of double standards when applied to fiction. So long as one is aware that it's only because the main character is the most sympathetically portrayed one and doesn't get a hate-on for the other characters or bash them, 'sall good in my book.


Also... *quietly* I'm a girl...DDDD:

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and i dont know how to say this any simpler
the fact that you LIKE a character or that they are portrayed as sympathetic
is not a COUNTER to double standards
its the reason WHY you have double standards

I don't understand why you think this.

Just because I like him doesn't mean I'm excusing his evil. In fact, his evil is a lot of why I like him in the first place.

Please let that sink in. I am NOT condoning Lelouch's actions. I am NOT saying that he's really a hero. Maybe he has good intentions, but his methods leave much to be desired.

This isn't a double standard, blade! This is two completely different criteria for comparison. I am looking at the characters from a meta-fictional point of view while you are looking at them from an in-universe point of view. If I were a character in Code Geass, I'd hate Lelouch!

But I'm not. I'm a geeky girl watching an animated series and thoroughly enjoying Lelouch's bastardry and the carnage that ensues.

[bladeofdarkness]

@sky
why is it that every time you mention lelouch's crimes, you end that part of the sentence with BUT
thats also a form of double standards, a tendency to present the bad things as LESS relevent
try reversing it for a sec
"lelouch was an awesome character who is cool and kick ass and completely redefines what a well intentioned extremist protagonist can be... BUT"
see how it goes

@nogi
A)you have repeately said you like him regardless to what he does

B)kallen ISNT any more moral or likable then euphie (might be less moral)

@synaesthetic
if you like him BECAUSE he's "evil"
then you found a good character i guess
but thats not something that contradicts double standards
double standards are when you judge two diffetent things by two different standards even though they are basiclly the same underneath
lelouch is a character, so is rolo
why is watching lelouch commit carnage fun, but rolo murdering shierly as a horrible crime then

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Errr, I never said I'd love him no matter what.
I love him as the character he was presented as, simple as that. And he certainly wasn't Bradley.



And you completely ignore my point.
Show me my double-standards concerning this matter. Or why Kallen is more moral/likeable than Euphie.
Or let's just leave it at that, because by now your point seems completely moot to me.




Omg, one of us is sitting in the other's head and eating pizza! xD

Actually it is a moot point by now, because double standards are meant to be used towards equal things.
Like, you cannot compare apples and oranges, just like you cannot compare Lelouch to random.4938493 character.
You get equal amounts of something, and if you judge, that two things that are actually the same, and yet, you still find yourself preferring one of them, then yes, this is double-standards.

But it is not, when the equation for a thing/chara/whatever, is not consisted of same amounts of development/actions and what you decide to judge upon it.

[synaesthetic]

tl;dr version: Lelouch amuses me so I like him.

/thread

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@sky
why is it that every time you mention lelouch's crimes, you end that part of the sentence with BUT
thats also a form of double standards, a tendency to present the bad things as LESS relevent
try reversing it for a sec
"lelouch was an awesome character who is cool and kick ass and completely redefines what a well intentioned extremist protagonist can be... BUT"
see how it goes

Oh lol, are you gonna tell me how i feel and think now?
You seem to confuse the terms double standards with fiction preference. Resemble, but are not the same.

[synaesthetic]

He's not going to stop until all of us who like Lelouch say to him, "You know what, you're right, Lelouch was a bastard so I hate him."

He can't seem to understand we like Lelouch for the very same reason he hates Lelouch.