2008-05-06, 22:35 | Link #441 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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still, like I said, it's just a fear. I myself don't like having hints at the possibility of Nunnally having mindwipes. >_> |
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2008-05-06, 22:40 | Link #442 |
Delurker
Join Date: Jan 2007
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It would be bizarre for Nunnally to have her memory of Suzaku wiped but not her memory of Lelouch, just so that Suzaku could say "Kururugi here." He was probably trying to be more formal so that Lelouch would be even more shocked when he heard the voice of the Governor-General.
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2008-05-06, 22:45 | Link #443 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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That may be something the Emperor wants to erase for the sake of Nunnally being a co-operative little governor/princess. >_> (obviously that's not a definite, it's just one explanation of why such an action would be done) |
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2008-05-07, 07:56 | Link #444 | ||||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Loyalty demanded demands loyalty in return, as the saying goes, so I can just as easily rewrite that boolean of yours as "Lulu has the choice of abandoing the tens of thousands of Japanese he's incited into open rebellion or NOT abandoning the tens of thousands of Japanese he's incited into open rebellion." And considering how those tens of thousands of Japanese wouldn't have risen up if HE hadn't acted, Lelouch has responsibility for them. And in the end, that responsibility comes down to remembering that he did sacrifice thousands for the sake of simply trying to rescue Nunaly. Quote:
He had no plan. He ran off with no plan, no idea how he'd solve the problem, and at the same time threw away all the potential support and such he could have gotten had he finished the task at hand. But no, Lelouch confuses priorities with capabilities, and so goes off to try one thing when he can only possibly do another. Now, in case anyone start thinking "you wouldn't say that if it happened to you," you're wrong. If I'm a squad leader in a firefight, and then suddenly learn that some stranger has kidnapped my sister, it would be absurd of me to simply run away from the firefight and my men, hop on a plane to the States, and assume that I alone could somehow rescue her. I'm hardly necessary for a hostage rescue team, by the time I got there she could have been moved half a dozen times, and the consequences for abandoning my allies means that I've virtually thrown away any chance for getting their or government assistance in the matter whatsoever. Quote:
I DON'T hate Lelouch. I have no respect for him, I'm as far from a fanboy as you can get, and I certainly scorn his methods and mindset, but I don't hate him. Quote:
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If Kallen runs off in the middle of a battle in her Knightmare because her mother is held hostage, what does she expect to do? In the time she takes to get there, they could have moved her. Even if they didn't, what is she going to do in her machine when they simply stand behind her bed with guns pointed at her head? Shoot them? No, the better choice would be for Kallen to finish the battle and get Zero's help. If they already kill her mother by that point, it's a pretty strong indication that they would have anyone had she not immediately complied with basic commands like "get out of your knightmare," "let us handcuff you," "tell us everything about the Black Knights and Zero." Quote:
I've never denied that Lelouch process can be described as "Nunaly>Revenge on Britannia =(plan around) friends>Black Knights/Japan>everything else." Just because Lelouch considers the Black Knights pawns for his goal doesn't excuse abandoning them. Lelouch may consider it acceptable, but I don't. Lelouch's rescue attempt for Nunally was hasty, unplanned, and done at the expense of the very people Lelouch had driven to be completely dependent on him. Lelouch's thoughts on the value of his army don't somehow absolve him of the responsibilities that come with the position of its leader, including the blame when he abandons them. Arguing so enters the grounds of absolute moral relativism, which ironically isn't something Lelouch does. Lelouch doesn't care, and doesn't try and excuse his actions. For him, Nunally> all. He doesn't care beyond that, which doesn't make him right. |
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2008-05-07, 08:10 | Link #445 | ||||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Of course not. They just want their country back, and isn't going to say no to a good thing when a savior dropped in and take up the job no one else is good enough for. BK cared about Zero about as much as Zero cared about them; there is a goal they want, and the other person is needed for things to work. Saying that Lulu is inconsiderate of the BK members is rather pointless when most BK members were inconsiderate of Zero's own position. And in the end, the reason everything ended up the way it did in season 2 right now is the same as last season; Zero need BK, and BK needed Zero even more. Quote:
And let me ask you, why were you the squadleader in that firefight? Because if you joined the battle to protect your sister, what's the point of winning the fight if she dies? Why did YOU fight in that squad? For fun? Money? Power? Quote:
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2008-05-07, 08:18 | Link #446 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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As for Suzaku: he saved his life, didn't try to have him assassinated and refrained from using Geass to "turn" him, which would have been the most expedient (though it'd pose reliability problems). He only used his geass when it became necessary to save both of their lives. On the whole, I agree with your analysis of Lelouch. His desertion during the Black Rebellion was a mistake and a betrayal, though an understandable one. Urabe and Kallen forgave him, in the end. It does show that for all his ruthlessness and cunning, he's got a few serious emotional weaknesses. |
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2008-05-07, 08:32 | Link #447 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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You call them "emotional weaknesses', I call them emotions period. If your emotion don't control your actions, then you don't really have any emotions at all. Such was the man who would not blink at the news that the woman who gave him two children was murdered. Such was the man who would use his own flesh and blood to distract the Japanese government and to sacrifice them so he could perform a surprise attack. Lulu is not the perfect commander, his father is. But then, a perfect commander is a heartless monster, so that's hardly a bad thing.
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2008-05-07, 09:11 | Link #450 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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His father doesn't love, Lelouch does. It's true, and Lelouch is a better person for it, I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that what he did wasn't good, or the best choice he could have made. His love is both a quality and a flaw. At the same time. In that one instance, the flaw aspect beat out the quality one. |
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2008-05-07, 09:17 | Link #452 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And as I kept saying, your view that he made the wrong choice came from the idea that he should somehow keep fighting even though his mind is no longer on the job, even though he could lose the battle AND lose his sister if he stayed. If Nunnally was kidnapped to lure Lulu, but Lulu didn't show, that means Lulu doesn't care enough about her. For the kidnapper, that would also mean Nunnally is now useless to keep alive. A hostage that was useless as a hostage is not worth anything at all.
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2008-05-07, 09:25 | Link #453 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Even just the fact he couldn't keep his mind on the job - and made some mistakes like snapping at one of his men - is a sign of weakness.
And even accepting that he had to show up to save Nunally - he could have done a bit more to insure the BK weren't completely lost. |
2008-05-07, 09:30 | Link #454 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Strength is more than just winning battles; it is also about having something left to fight for when the dust settles.
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2008-05-07, 09:37 | Link #455 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
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When lulu left the battlefield to find nunnally it wasnt a mistake, the was the most reasonable option, even if he didnt go to look for her do you think his mind was even in a calm state to continue the battle? Are you saying that if you where at CEO meeting and you got a phone call that your son was just in an accident that you wouldnt dash out that freaking door and head towards the hospital? Yeah sure you may lose your job, but your sons health comes first.
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2008-05-07, 09:43 | Link #456 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't pretend to be non-weak. In fact, I'm so weak, in his place I might go catatonic, which is an even worse option.
But I still don't see how letting emotion deprive you of your faculties is supposed to be good. Or why being rational and self-controlled means you'll turn into a monster. I suspect that the disaster that day is several mistakes, in fact. His leaving just being the last in the chain. The first one would be not making sure Toudou knew the plan well enough to take over if Lelouch had a problem. "Miracle Toudou" is supposedly a good commander. He should have been able to hold it together better. (Or was he disabled or something? I don't remember clearly.) |
2008-05-07, 09:45 | Link #457 |
The Last Frontier
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I think Anh minh is looking at it from a purely logical POV, that Lelouch's emotions led him to making a non-optimal decision at that point of time. Logically speaking, that's correct but then again, humans aren't the most logical of people. Even Lelouch, who's very logical.
And the comparison of the situation between being a CEO and a Commander is way off. At the meeting, you're just responsible for your own life and maybe your family as well. As the commander of the OoTBK, you're responsible for the lifes of everyone else.
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2008-05-07, 09:54 | Link #459 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Funny you brought that up, because under the same position Lulu will do the same thing too. Lulu will GLADLY give his life to protect Nunnally. That isn't about rationality; it is about doing what you want to do, what you NEED to do.
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2008-05-07, 09:56 | Link #460 |
...huh?
Join Date: Jul 2003
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...i agree in that when the writers made Lelouch go to his sister's rescue rather than stay to fight, they managed to preserve the essential part of Lelouch that they've first presented to the world. The part that sets him apart from other macchiavelian/megalomaniac characters that seem to be quite popular these days and makes him more identifiable to the rest of us.
But I wouldn't call what he did reasonable. In fact, he threw all reason to the wind when he chose to abandon ship to get his sister back, even if the entire reason that the said ship even exists is because of her. Emotions are very seldom reasonable. I'll call what he did understandable, because we know where his true loyalty lies first and foremost, and we know that it is also what fuels his ambitions, but definitely not reasonable. |
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