World Of Warcraft Discussion Thread

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Well, see you on there then RWB. Have fun! If only you had a Mage that was keyed to MH/BT. >.>

I hear the servers are behaving oh so well today after the maint to.

Just so happened to see a forum sticky today that transfers are not working currently, guess I have to wait for who knows how long now. Funny you should mention mage though, I actually have a lv 60 mage that was my very first raiding main. I'm not planning on transferring that though because I hate it with a passion and never ever want to play it again.

[-RK-]

If you dont like long reads skip to the bottom and read the underlined sentence.

Its funny how many of you here play on PvE or RP servers. I hate those servers. Servers for those who cant world PvP or take being ganked.

WoW is pretty much fail right now. I have a priest that is top ranked in my server but due to inactivity of the teams I wont get veangeful glad. I PvE and my guild is the top horde guild in the battlegroup. Been farming illidan for about 3 months.

This game is boring and has nothing innovative. Burning Crusade killed PvP. Resiliency to be precise. What a bullshit way to water PvP down. It was a good idea at first but once you are resiliency capped and stacking crit becomes useless what are you to do? I used to really enjoy PvP and now its a chore. Playing my arena games were a chore. It was no longer fun. Too much stressing on rewards and titles now.

I dont think WoW will rebound and the only reason people continue to play is because peoples friends play it. For the average noob this game is wonderful. You can raid and pvp with your friends and get good at the game. In PvP and PvE the same guilds and teams have dominated the past 2 seasons and last year respectively.

So in WotLK you are going to enter several dungeons which will have retarded reputations to grind out to get the heroic keys. Then you can level up to grind badges for gear. To that end, you can raid or world PvP at Lake Wintersgrasp (the total PvP area even on PvE Servers) for more gear and titles. You will kill major figureheads and go back into a remodeled Naxx. Kill Kel Thuzad. Kill Anubarak. Kill Arthas Menethil. Zomg, nothing but undead in the next patch. Literally nothing to look foward to.

In short, Warhammer Online better be more entertaining than WoW. Because WoW is garbage.

Unfortunately I am addicted to it and am hoping to ween myself off it with Dota or xbox 360

[Beelgarion]

The game is out now

[Rembr]

Originally Posted by -RK-

If you dont like long reads skip to the bottom and read the underlined sentence.

Its funny how many of you here play on PvE or RP servers. I hate those servers. Servers for those who cant world PvP or take being ganked.

WoW is pretty much fail right now. I have a priest that is top ranked in my server but due to inactivity of the teams I wont get veangeful glad. I PvE and my guild is the top horde guild in the battlegroup. Been farming illidan for about 3 months.

This game is boring and has nothing innovative. Burning Crusade killed PvP. Resiliency to be precise. What a bullshit way to water PvP down. It was a good idea at first but once you are resiliency capped and stacking crit becomes useless what are you to do? I used to really enjoy PvP and now its a chore. Playing my arena games were a chore. It was no longer fun. Too much stressing on rewards and titles now.

I dont think WoW will rebound and the only reason people continue to play is because peoples friends play it. For the average noob this game is wonderful. You can raid and pvp with your friends and get good at the game. In PvP and PvE the same guilds and teams have dominated the past 2 seasons and last year respectively.

So in WotLK you are going to enter several dungeons which will have retarded reputations to grind out to get the heroic keys. Then you can level up to grind badges for gear. To that end, you can raid or world PvP at Lake Wintersgrasp (the total PvP area even on PvE Servers) for more gear and titles. You will kill major figureheads and go back into a remodeled Naxx. Kill Kel Thuzad. Kill Anubarak. Kill Arthas Menethil. Zomg, nothing but undead in the next patch. Literally nothing to look foward to.

In short, Warhammer Online better be more entertaining than WoW. Because WoW is garbage.

Unfortunately I am addicted to it and am hoping to ween myself off it with Dota or xbox 360

Wow's alright in moderation. I think Blizzard's aiming more towards that since they get $15 regardless of whether the players play 30 hours a month or 300.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by -RK-

Its funny how many of you here play on PvE or RP servers. I hate those servers. Servers for those who cant world PvP or take being ganked.

I play on a high pop PvP server but it barely even matters anymore. Arena and epic bg rewards killed world PvP. Nowadays the extent of it is 2 70s in greens getting killed by lowbies and guards at Xroads or one of the 5 alts in a zone ganking one of the others. I can even level my alt in Hillsbrad without being attacked and never even saw one alliance in Ashenvale.

I agree with resilience making PvP lame though. I really wish I had left my warrior at lv 69, instead of getting to fight in a bracket where I can't even outdamage a priest's shield and even if I do their renew heals it completely. My gear is still not amazing, but I shouldn't be hitting cloth like it's plate and be almost completely unable to even crit.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Servers for those who cant world PvP or take being ganked.

Thats a fairly broad and unfair statement (some of us just aren't much interested in WoW PvP, I prefer TF2 or CS. I play WoW for PvE and the 'lolore'). There is however a grain of truth in there. Blizzard is a business and they want money (obviously). When they first started WoW they might have had good intentions and flowery ideals, but they struck designer gold. Due to the games popularity now they are loath to change to much of their format, small changes here and there will work. But you wont ever see a large one. WotLK only adds to the game, none of the base formula will be changed.

The game is aimed as an 'every mans' game (lowest common denominator?), with something to appeal to everyone out there. There is PvP in various forms (as much as you may hate, or love it), there is an economy and trade skills (no matter how jacked they may be), theres PvE and scripted events involving story. There is a part of the game that interests everyone to some degree.

There is also the 'sense of worth' (not the best phrase but I just woke up!) that people get from attaining new gear. For those on the bleeding edge they get to lord it over the lesser geared folks which feeds their ego giving them that satisfaction. While those lesser geared people look to those in the gear and think to themselves that they want that gear to. Which makes WoW a very effective 'carrot on a string' game.

Pre-BC, when guilds were in Naxx and people were in GM/HWL gear (before the pvp change), there was very little the casual player could do to compete with the top end. PvP was the domain of the raider or grand marshall. against Might of Menethil and Grand Marshal Claymore's, if you were a clothie, hell even in leather, you were pretty much dead. It was a game of two shots,which was VERY unsatisfying to a bulk of the players, but it appealed a great deal to the small group that could attain those items. Blizzard needed to do something about it, so we fast forward to BC and we have resilience. It might not be the best solution but it certainly changed the dynamics of PvP. Now its more about survival and balance, rather then straight brute force (boom, head shot). But brute force still prevails after a point, raiders still hold a slight edge in that regard in terms of melee weapons. An MS warrior (or an enhancement shaman) with Torch of the Damned at the end of last season (or begging of this one) could do some serious damage, Rogues with the Warglaives is another example. They still need the PvP gear though, PvE is in general far to squishy.

But thats going off on a high-end player tangent there, for the casuals, they have access to 'high end' gear as well, for a small investment of time it is possible for even the most casual of player to get a decent kit and kick some ass either in PvP or PvE. The gear level of those players is and always will be just behind that of the high end folks (keep that carrot tugging). The Sunwell badge loot brings the gap a LOT closer though (omg balancing the playing field before WOTLK, nowai!). The people complaining about those getting 'welfare' epics though don't understand that to get these epics the casual player is still going to have to put in time to get them, a 100 badges is 100 badges no matter how you slice it. If anything putting up with wipe after wipe in a casual pug entitles them to getting these items (they still have to BEAT the encounter after all). The 'hard cores' will always get them faster though and will always have that period of time to lord it over the casuals until they catch up enough, until the next big thing comes along at least (hello Kil'jaeden and season 4).

This game is a very intricate 'carrot on a stick' model, it endeavors to to appeal to everyone offering some form of self gratification and it does it well, I don't see the game suddenly collapsing any time soon. But then again no one foresaw the success of WoW either. Maybe Warhammer can dislodge it, but I highly doubt it. WoW has a few more years in it yet of being top dog on campus.


Mm breakfast times nom nom nom.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by -RK-

If you dont like long reads skip to the bottom and read the underlined sentence.

Its funny how many of you here play on PvE or RP servers. I hate those servers. Servers for those who cant world PvP or take being ganked.

WoW is pretty much fail right now. I have a priest that is top ranked in my server but due to inactivity of the teams I wont get veangeful glad. I PvE and my guild is the top horde guild in the battlegroup. Been farming illidan for about 3 months.

Speaking as an computer RPG player who hates PvP with a vengeance, I'm glad to see less players like you around. No loss to me.

It's difficult to understand the mentality of players who thrive on the "kill", rather than on the excitement of working together with other people to achieve common goals (ie, raids or group-play in general; battlegrounds qualify too). I stand firm on the belief that RPGs are the worst possible platform for fair competition between different players. How is it ever an equal challenge when two toons are separated by differences in equipment or level? If "killing" is what you want, go play FPS games like Counterstrike instead, where the playing field is level for everyone. Then we're talking about true skill, rather than a competition about who has spent more time acquiring "phat" loot.

And let's even forget about immersion and trying to "live a story". Oh, I forget. PvP players just like to kill. Hmm, no point reasoning with that segment of the population, is there? It's like trying to persuade a hungry lion not to eat the lamb.

Taken in this context, I agree with Mr Hat and Clogs. I see the Resilience stat as a very worthwhile addition to balance gameplay between casual and dedicated PvPers, to make PvP depend more on player skill rather than shiny equipment per se. But of course, when you have a game like WoW, which tries to appeal to everyone, it inevitably ends up pissing off some players. You can't please everyone all of the time.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And let's even forget about immersion and trying to "live a story". Oh, I forget. PvP players just like to kill. Hmm, no point reasoning with that segment of the population, is there? It's like trying to persuade a hungry lion not to eat the lamb.

Honestly, while the negative statement about people who play on PvE servers was an unfair generalization, this really is pretty much the same thing. People play PvP for more reasons than to just be a jerk to people. Yes, I am personally a jerk, but lots of people play just because they like the sense of danger and excitement knowing they could be attacked at any time, or to have the ability to get rid of people stealing their mines or quest mobs instead of having to just sit there and take it. Yes, sometimes I want to just sit there and not be bothered, which is one of the reasons I am transferring a few of my characters to PvE. But the main draw for me for PvP servers is choice (despite being a jerk I have probably actually helped as many alliance players as I have ganked), which is why my main is staying there.

[TinyRedLeaf]

It's not a blanket judgement against all kinds of PvP activity. Battlegrounds are great fun, for example, because while victory does depend on how well you can kill, your ability to work as a team matters a lot more. In such contexts, you can cover for one another's strengths and weaknesses, which makes gameplay a lot more satisfying for me.

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

...of people play just because they like the sense of danger and excitement knowing they could be attacked at any time...

I understand that completely. I play on an RP server (Argent Dawn), but I sometimes enable PvP when I enter contested zones, such as the Plaguelands (my main is a paladin). Because it doesn't make sense for a paladin to saunter into enemy territory and not get attacked at any time.

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

People play PvP for more reasons than to just be a jerk to people.

Unfortunately, I disagree, especially when it comes to players who complain about how so-and-so company "ruined" PvP by making it easier for casual players to "run away". I cannot help but see such whining as infantile behaviour - what they're really complaining about is how they don't get to show off their e-peens anymore. To such people, my advice is: get a life. Your enjoyment should not come at the detriment of other people's fun. I take a dim view of games that encourage these kinds of anti-social behaviour.

To put it simply, of course PvP can be fun. It's certainly a lot more challenging than wreaking havoc on dumb mobs. But it's only fun when it's mutually consensual. As such, I much prefer the way WoW has organised it by servers. And even then, you can still partake in PvP on Normal and RP servers by consent. So, it's a win-win situation for everybody. Different strokes for different people.

[Vexx]

I had great hopes for the RP-PvP concept.... but there were simply too many who either didn't grasp what RP was about or they were too juvenile, negative, or posturing to just play the part. Mostly I blame the mods for not moderating or setting the standards clearly.

I also love PvP for the excitement and danger which was nerfed out of PvE (waaaah!!! I died because I have to think to get this quest! Waah, dying "hurts"! ... sorry, I remember when it was actually *dangerous* to get from lvl 1 to lvl 10 in an MMO)

but I'd rather RP....

[Rembr]

How do raids on RP servers go?

Do they use vent normally?

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It's not a blanket judgement against all kinds of PvP activity. Battlegrounds are great fun, for example, because while victory does depend on how well you can kill, your ability to work as a team matters a lot more. In such contexts, you can cover for one another's strengths and weaknesses, which makes gameplay a lot more satisfying for me.



I understand that completely. I play on an RP server (Argent Dawn), but I sometimes enable PvP when I enter contested zones, such as the Plaguelands (my main is a paladin). Because it doesn't make sense for a paladin to saunter into enemy territory and not get attacked at any time.



Unfortunately, I disagree, especially when it comes to players who complain about how so-and-so company "ruined" PvP by making it easier for casual players to "run away". I cannot help but see such whining as infantile behaviour - what they're really complaining about is how they don't get to show off their e-peens anymore. To such people, my advice is: get a life. Your enjoyment should not come at the detriment of other people's fun. I take a dim view of games that encourage these kinds of anti-social behaviour.

To put it simply, of course PvP can be fun. It's certainly a lot more challenging than wreaking havoc on dumb mobs. But it's only fun when it's mutually consensual. As such, I much prefer the way WoW has organised it by servers. And even then, you can still partake in PvP on Normal and RP servers by consent. So, it's a win-win situation for everybody.

I don't see how you can still say the only reason to play PvP is to be a jerk when right above that you said you understood one of the reasons I pointed out for playing PvP. If it's because, as you said, it's consensual on a PvE server, then technically that's actually completely the opposite of what I am saying. There is no feeling of danger at all in deciding when you will flag yourself. The danger comes from not being able to determine when people will attack you or whether it will be a fair fight when they do.

Different strokes for different people.

Exactly, and this is why you shouldn't judge people because of their preferred playstyle. Some people prefer a competitive, cutthroat atmosphere, some prefer a laid-back atmosphere. Yeah, people who go camp lowbies for hours for no reason are jerks, but there is nothing wrong with people who just want a little extra element of excitement and danger in the game. Not to mention, if what happens on a PvP server is "ruining someone's fun", it's their own fault. There really aren't any innocent victims as you seem to imply, everyone who rolled on the PvP server did so willingly, and if they somehow couldn't read the server ruleset when they created their character on that server, it is easier now than ever to switch. It's not like it's one-sided either, you can bet that the guys ganking lowbies have been ganked themselves countless times. It's a risk anyone who plays there takes.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

There is no feeling of danger at all in deciding when you will flag yourself. The danger comes from not being able to determine when people will attack you or whether it will be a fair fight when they do.

I trigger PvP the moment I step into the zone. Just the other day, a pair of Horde players jumped on me while I was happily whaling on a hapless Scarlet Crusader (they killed me in two seconds). I didn't see it coming, and I took it all in good humour.

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

Not to mention, if what happens on a PvP server is "ruining someone's fun", it's their own fault.

I was mainly responding to -RK-'s post, about how RP and Normal "servers [are] for those who can't world PvP or take being ganked."

Joining a PvP server is a form of consent. In which case, you get what you signed up for. I wasn't implying that people who rolled on PvP servers are "innocent victims".

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

It's not like it's one-sided either, you can bet that the guys ganking lowbies have been ganked themselves countless times. It's a risk anyone who plays there takes.

Frankly, that's bullying, plain and simple. If it's awful in real-life, what makes it any better in virtual-reality? Ugly behaviour like this is not something to be celebrated. Of course, we can easily say that it's only a game - the player might not actually behave the same way in real-life. Personally, I'm not so sure.

[Jaden]

Well, I rolled RP back when there was no RP-PVP. So I can still claim to be not a carebear.

I do stroll around flagged usually, and happily gank any horde who do the same carelessly. As long as you don't enter a lowbie zone just to gank repeatedly, it can be thought of as killing the enemy, not spiteful bullying.

Rembr: Most people on RP servers don't RP and just play normally. I happen to be part of a group that RPs in raid and doesn't use vent. It can be quite fun.

Originally Posted by hat&clogs

When they first started WoW they might have had good intentions and flowery ideals, but they struck designer gold.

Yea right, Blizzard games are always either designer gold or swept under the mat, and it was clear from the start which WoW was going to be.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Joining a PvP server is a form of consent. In which case, you get what you signed up for. I wasn't implying that people who rolled on PvP servers are "innocent victims".

Frankly, that's bullying, plain and simple. If it's awful in real-life, what makes it any better in virtual-reality? Ugly behaviour like this is not something to be celebrated. Of course, we can easily say that it's only a game - the player might not actually behave the same way in real-life. Personally, I'm not so sure.

I really don't consider it bullying, because as you said, signing up for the PvP server is a form of consent. That would be like walking up to a bully and asking him to beat you up and steal your lunch money, and then complaining when he does. I am not trying to defend people's behavior, as I agree that their actions in the game could reflect their attitude in real life, but it is not 100% certain that they do, and, as my original point, not everyone on PvP servers acts that way. When it comes down to it, it is still a game, and it is much easier to enjoy it when you just take things as they come and not generalize an entire server of people or get morally offended by a playerbase you never even have to interact with.

I trigger PvP the moment I step into the zone. Just the other day, a pair of Horde players jumped on me while I was happily whaling on a hapless Scarlet Crusader (they killed me in two seconds). I didn't see it coming, and I took it all in good humour.

It's still not quite the same as you are still choosing when to flag, the true danger is having NO control of it whatsoever. However, as you just said, you took that incident in good humor. That is pretty much the point I am trying to make. You win some, you lose some, you take it in good humor. It's a game, some people are jerks, you just learn to ignore them.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Yeah, but before WoW, the highest pop MMOs reached in general was a couple hundred thousand. WoW is at what? 9-10 million? I'm pretty sure they were not expecting that much. Id be certain in saying that considering the HUGE issues of crowding they had when they launched and the server count doubling in a few weeks.

[Xacual]

Wasn't Lineage 2 at about a million counting Korea?

Blizzard knew they had a hit when open beta started and all 500,000 slots for the beta were made within 2 days. Sadly that indication was only three weeks away from game release.

[Solace]

The difference is that places like Korea embraced online gaming in larger numbers than Westerners typically did. The largest MMO previously in America was Everquest, which peaked at around half a million subscribers. So for American MMO's, WoW has exceeded every expectation.

The only thing that's going to cause a decline in WoW's numbers right now is....WoW. The other games on the horizon may offer one or two aspects that will draw away some players but there is no "killer MMO" in the foreseeable future. It's likely the game that will dethrone it will be another Blizzard game (the rumored Starcraft and WoW 2 MMO's).

[-RK-]

I PvP not to insult people or be a jerk. When I defeat someone in arena or wherever I dont post on forums about it. I dont brag to someone I dont know when I think they are terribad.

I PvP because its fun and in a world PvP setting its on the fly. There are no scripts or rules. Survival at its best. How well do you know your class but others as well? You step up or you walk away. Simple as that. I rarely gank people as I have better things to do with my time. As a general rule I dont kill people who are 10 levels below me.

On to casual gamers...

I dislike casual gamers alot in that they complained and whined and changed the aspect of PvP. When people couldnt do the PvP grind because they made excuses like "I have school" or "I have work" or "I have a life" the game was changed. The ranking system was removed and people could buy PvP gear with honor points. Casual gamers want things to require next to no work to get and they dont mind taking the proverbial shit on someone who has earned that themselves.

Now, post patch 1.10 and TBC, I am not opposed to casual gamers picking up the gear because let's face it, if you sucked without the gear you will suck with it. Back in the day I used to do WSG and AB with a group of the best PvPers on my server. We were primarily in PvP gear. Some of us had naxx gear. We would go against Full T3 teams and decimate them. Gear enhances survivability but it is not substitute for skill.

Blizzard needed to do something about it, so we fast forward to BC and we have resilience. It might not be the best solution but it certainly changed the dynamics of PvP. Now its more about survival and balance, rather then straight brute force (boom, head shot). But brute force still prevails after a point, raiders still hold a slight edge in that regard in terms of melee weapons.

Resilience was a replacement for armor and stamina. Resiliency also more or less makes crit much less helpful. Melee stack less crit and much more AGI, STR, and AP. Its a terrible solution. When you are resiliency capped at around 480 it no longer does anything for you. At that point crit is reduced from base by about 13% as well as damage from DoTs. About 23% mitigation from damage by a critical hit.

Its a good thing Blizzard isnt UPS because when it comes to balancing for PvP, they fail to deliver. The dominant classes since TBC came out has been warrriors, locks, and druids. Some classes have less precendent due to a poor balance. Of course, certain classes arent as good say in 2v2 as they are in 5v5.

One last thing...

Might of Menethil and Grand Marshal Claymore's

I cant believe you compared these two weapons side by side. Its like comparing a barman's shanker to a Corehounds Tooth.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

First, I'm just going to say I think you have the wrong attitude about casual players.

No gear isn't a complete substitute for skill, but its one sure hell of a good buffer.

No one said resilience was a perfect solution, but it is A solution, and it has changed PvP in general for the better away from the 2 shot gib-fest that it was. But it is no perfect solution. A game like WoW has far to many variables to balance PvP around.

Comparing the best weapons pre-BC? The best PvE and the best (cliche) PvP? Would you have preferred Ashkandi, it makes no difference either way my point is still there.