2012-12-15, 05:24 | Link #441 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Face it. It is the politics that allows these things to happen.
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2012-12-15, 05:30 | Link #442 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I can say that if for some reason I decided that I just HAD to kill someone, I wouldn't even know where/how to acquire a firearm in the first place, so I'd have to think of different, less simple means. Quote:
It is exactly because nutcases like him can go on tilt and IMMEDIATELY obtain the means of murdering people and then killing yourself that these tragedies happen. The more preparation the murderers need to put into things, the higher the chance that they return to their senses. Sorry man, this isn't exactly rocket science. The difference between the US and other western civilizations isn't the amount of people who go on tilt (at least I don't assume you want to make that claim), the difference is that in the US they can easily obtain tools to do lethal damage and do their killings. Pulling a trigger is MUCH easier to do than bludgeoning or stabbing a victim. Quote:
I wonder how many people in the US would want to live like Israel does. What a lovely idea. |
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2012-12-15, 06:58 | Link #443 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 35
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I largely agree with your point and enjoyed your invocation of the Dark Ages (being a history nerd who has used similar lines of argument in the past). Problem is, it does seem school shootings/mass shootings are on the rise - I admit I have not done any major studying on the issue, so perhaps I am wrong, but I certainly get the impression (someone can corroborate/disagree if they have the stats). Not that these incidents in and of themselves make the modern world so much worse than the past, but that they as an isolated facet of the modern landscape are a bad thing and people want to understand why their frequency is increasing. Truthfully, I do not know how to tie this constructively into gun control or whether increased control would help matters.
Also on the subject of history, and this line of thinking just came to me as I was reading your post: sometimes, people's misconceptions of some prior 'golden age' can actually be a good thing. If people think they're fighting to regain some lost knowledge or cultural enlightenment it can make the leap more imaginable and the drive stronger. We see this in European (Enlightenment) and Chinese (Warring States period) history. There may have been bad elements in the past, but rose-tinted nostalgia goggles might actually serve a purpose in allowing people to highlight only the good in their desire to achieve some preconceived ideal, whether or not it actually reflects the reality. Of course, this methodology can also be invoked for nefarious purposes (the "Third Reich"). |
2012-12-15, 10:33 | Link #446 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Does the total matter if the idea is to stop or at least lessen the damage of these types of incidents entirely? Quote:
Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold proved that in their "basement tapes." Dr. Park Dietz analyzed the Columbine masscre and put forward the hypothesis of the "glamour suicide mass killer" who kills on this level for the media coverage he will receive. He also put forward the concept that these shooters create an image of themselves that mirrors what they see on TV, video games, and movies of the gun wielding bass ass that solves everything with the end of a gun. Like it or not, our culture is a prime factor in these shootings. That's why Switzerland doesn't have these problems even though every household there is required to have a machinegun/real assault rifle. Culture plays a big role here. I should also add that a lack of proper mental health services and facilities is another big problem. We can thank Ronald Reagan for that, he's the one who defunded mental hospitals in the 1980s and that may be a contributing factor in some of this. Quote:
Unless there are cops in the building, armed, and ready, your only hope of stopping this at the door is going to be the teacher, store clerk, or theater patrons. There is no other practical or viable solution at the present. I'm sick of the gun-control fairy tale, because in the US it doesn't and will not work. Quote:
It's playing the part of the villian, like James Holmes pretending to be bain in the theater and using bombs in addition to the shotgun an pistols. If swords or knives were considered cool by these people that would be the weapon used and the killing pattern would be different. They'd be serial killers (many of whom do kill more people over the course of their crimes with a variety of weapons). Quote:
It is unjust to punish those who have nothing to do with these crimes. There are over 80 million gun owners in the US. Depriving them of their rights due to the actions of very few in comparison is not acceptable in a free Republic. A collectivist tyranny perhaps would do what you suggest, but not a country that claims to cherish freedom. You don't have the right to be "free from violence" but you do have the right to defend yourself against that possibility. The problem is that in a gun free zone that right is being infringed. Quote:
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THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Guns in the hands of the law abiding are useless if the law prohibits them from using them to defend themselves. The Lubby's shooting in Texas proved that, which is why Texas was one of the first states to institute concealed carry and a castle doctrine. It's not perfect (nothing is) but it at least gives people a fighting chance. Quote:
The difference is we in the US have become selfish assholes and this is one of the symptoms of such a society. The culture in the US glorifies violence and hyper-competition. This really is a symptom of "I've got mine, you get yours." I realize that emotions are running high with some of you and you're not thinking rationally as a result, but all this "easy access" talk falls flat when you consider how many laws we already have and how much gun-control we've passed since the Texas Tower shooting of the 1960s. The fact is, the more gun control laws that have been passed which restrict access, the more frequent and violent these attacks are becoming. Quote:
All you want is to blame the tool not the person using it. It's like blaming the car for the actions of the drunk driver, it's ridiculous.
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Last edited by GundamFan0083; 2012-12-15 at 10:44. |
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2012-12-15, 10:53 | Link #447 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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It fails to address one sheer fact and reality: it is impossible to stop these mentally disturbed people from committing these shootings, because by the time anyone is aware, the shooting had already occurred. In most cases, the shooter commits suicide. I will issue a challenge: determine the NEXT person who will commit a mass shooting. And where. No one wants to punish the right to own a gun. Instead, gun ownership needs to be REGULATED. Owning a gun is a right. Many people get that. However, to PREVENT these kinds of incidents, various kinds of regulations need to be implemented to ensure SAFETY.
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2012-12-15, 11:01 | Link #448 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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That is not to say that more precise and effective regulations shouldn't be enacted (I detest most concealed weapons laws, especially ones that allow weapons to be carried in schools and other similar public areas), but this is a case in which any amount of sane regulation wouldn't have mattered. (This crazed individual could have just as easily killed some other sane and responsible gun owner, taken their gun, and then gone on a killing spree.) This is a tragic event, plain and simple. But I do not really see it as a gun control issue. |
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2012-12-15, 11:01 | Link #449 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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If you compare to the the ammount of similar shootings in the USA to the rest of the world, then you clearly see that the USA is leading on the ammount of school shootings and the number of victims. I am not someone who is very knowledgable about the statistics on this subject, but i suspect this is related to how much easier it is to get fire arms in the USA than in those countries. |
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2012-12-15, 11:17 | Link #450 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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It's quite telling that you accuse me of "not thinking rationally" while it's very obviously you who has no control of his emotions.
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Now tell me how this "punishes" the gun owners and "deprives them of their right". It only makes them responsible for their potential lack of oversight. Quote:
If your theory that guns protect from gun violence was remotely true, then the US would be one of the safest places in the world. It isn't. Just the opposite. Quote:
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You wrote "People have no right to a life without violence, but I have a right to my guns". What more needs to be said? Quote:
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2012-12-15, 12:34 | Link #451 | |
Schwing!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Central Texas
Age: 40
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Just putting this out there.
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2012-12-15, 12:44 | Link #452 |
blinded by blood
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Not that I'm disagreeing with anything you say here, Mentar, but... this doesn't necessarily follow.
If by "gun control" you mean "controlling the flow of illegal black market weapons" then I wholeheartedly agree. Hitting the black arms market hard will do more to protect people from gun crimes than anything else. But if by "gun control" you mean "making it harder to legally buy a weapon from a licensed dealer" I don't think this is going to help anything, since as you already mentioned, most of these weapons are not being obtained legally. They're bought from black-market sellers on the street corners or stolen from people. My take of the situation (and I am talking about gun control this time) is something that most pro-gun people will not like, since they are mostly Republicans: we need to stop defunding public mental health services. People who are clearly insane need to be cared for, not left to fend for themselves, where they are capable of hurting others or themselves.
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2012-12-15, 12:49 | Link #453 |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 47
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How many criminals make a living shooting up schools? it's snapped mental cases that grab a gun and start increasing personal ventilation remove the chance of THOSE to get a gun and the chance of them running rampant will diminish whereas 'professional' criminals will never be prevented from obtaining them Sure a nutcase planning to go out in a hail of bullets and victims could plan his act well before and will then by illegal means obtain a firearm, but there will be a larger window to pick up if something is wrong Defend the right to bear arms till you turn blue, but only after your explanation why you ignore the right to live 27 people are dead, where are their rights now? B'sides It's actually a better idea to controlling the flow of LEGAL weapons since with those the most accidents occur
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2012-12-15, 12:56 | Link #454 | |
blinded by blood
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I'm well aware that making gun control laws more strict won't actually hurt anyone except Joe Redneck who wants to go duck hunting. But again, this guy got a gun through illegal means. Gun control laws will not stop that, unless gun control laws stop focusing on making legal purchases more difficult. They need to focus on getting rid of black market weapons and making sure stolen weapons are properly accounted for, and that gun owners are required to make sure that their guns don't grow legs and walk off.
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2012-12-15, 12:58 | Link #455 |
Unspecified
Scanlator
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Unspecified
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2012-12-15, 12:58 | Link #456 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 47
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No. I am quite certain you don't understand, Mentar. Most of what you are suggesting already exists in the United States and isn't working.
That is why I put the question up earlier about "who would be held responsible" in this incident, as the gun owner was murdered with her own gun by her own son, before he went to the school. Gun cannot be picked up like sixpacks. At least not legally. You cannot own a gun until you are 21 years old in this country. Federal law has paperwork to fill out. States vary on what else you need on top of that. Most states you cannot carry your gun outside of your house in city limits. Don't fantasize that every American is packing heat and that everyone got a six shooter ready to go. Conceal carry permits in most states are a pain in the ass to get, and most are denied even if one goes though the hoops in place. In many places, if you see someone pull a gun, it is probably a gang member with an illegal firearm. Illegal firearms are conficated by the police when found. Though I do not know what they do with them if they are not kept as evidence of a crime. And yes Americans like their guns. We grew up on tales of the Wild West and the Cowboys and Gunslingers. But most of us don't use firearms to gun down people in the streets since the Frontier closed in 1890. However most tales of the Old West we got from the 1950s and 1960s presented the concept of honorable gunfights. you don't shoot children or innocents. If you have a problem with someone, you face them alone. By the 1990s that all seemed to go away. Not just the westerns, but also any idea of honor, even if it was the western idea of it. More and more stories are of heartless bastards that kill to get the job done, or sometimes just for the thrill of it. The glory of the psycopath I guess you could call them. (These shows are not of my taste, as I tended towards Star Trek or Bonanza). Something changed and it wasn't the number of guns nor the laws restricting them (and there are resticted).
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2012-12-15, 13:04 | Link #457 | |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 47
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But if gunowners didn't have a gun, it can't be stolen or grow legs and walk off and again, when did black market weapons account for a school shooting?
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2012-12-15, 13:10 | Link #458 | |
blinded by blood
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I don't think I'm really stressing this enough but there are over eighty million gun owners in the United States and that's not counting the illegal weapons, either. The US government could not stop them if they revolted against the ban and refused to lay down their arms. Not without simply killing millions of people only perturbed that their Constitutional rights are being infringed upon. I'm serious in that if you were to attempt to unilaterally ban weapons in the United States, you'd have a second Civil War on your hands.
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2012-12-15, 13:17 | Link #459 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 47
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Which is why I think the Europeans and others don't understand. If they go for an outright ban over the heads of the voters, they will have a serious problem trying to enforce it, because many of those 80 million will resist on the grounds that the Federal Government has overstepped their authority as defined by the Bill of Rights.
Essentally a Second Civil War. All that is missing is the second government to oppose Washington D.C. Fortunately, most in Washington know better than to go over the voters heads when it comes to things like that.
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2012-12-15, 13:18 | Link #460 |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Here's an interesting article from the Washington Post that covers a number of studies and linkages regarding firearms. Of interest, the United States is more violent than other countries (but good news: we're experiencing a downward trend in violence), the South is unusually more violent than other regions of the country (and according to a Gallup poll, the South has the highest amount of gun ownership - this point also correlates with point #8 in the Washington Post article that greater levels of guns are associated with greater amounts of murders), and most interesting of all, the levels of gun ownership in America are on the decline.
The Washington Post is often cited as being "liberally biased" so take their opinions with a grain of salt; however, the data - which covers more than just gun violence - is rather interesting.
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