Character Discussion - Lelouch

[bladeofdarkness]

im not bitching ABOUT HIM
im bitching about what PEOPLE MAKE HIM OUT TO BE

the whole FUN about lelouch's character is that he is very VERY flawed that you arent ever really sure if he is good or bad
so i cant stand it when people make him out to be this stupid gary stu who is beyond criticism
treat him as "always right"
and treat ANYONE who opposes him as automaticlly "always suck"

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

im not bitching ABOUT HIM
im bitching about what PEOPLE MAKE HIM OUT TO BE

the whole FUN about lelouch's character is that he is very VERY flawed that you arent ever really sure if he is good or bad
so i cant stand it when people make him out to be this stupid gary stu who is beyond criticism
treat him as "always right"
and treat ANYONE who opposes him as automaticlly "always suck"

Lol, then you fain in doing so, cause your posts are saying the opposite.

Also, very few people are doing what you say. Most people, are tangled up in yaoi notions and stuff.
So basically, you are bitching in a fail way, about a very small minority. Most people like Lelouch, but they can acknowledge his shit too.
The people you are trying to bitch about, are not here, and they are definitely not the ones, you bitched about in the earlier pages. And ah, even if you bitch about them, nothing is gonna change. They got their own ideas, why should you ruin it for them? And lol, actually those people would probably tell you to "gtfo" and in the way you have worded lately your arguments, they would not actually be on the wrong.

[snowdevil_crow]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you want to deny that this is double standards, fine
lets call it "moral dissonance" then

why was suzaku so hated when opposing lelouch, when in effect he was actually RIGHT to do so (especially after euphie)
the result of the end of ep 14 especially comes to mind in his case
why was ougi given such a hate fandom for turning on lelouch for perfectly good REASONS (he DID lie to them for over a year, and is guilty of several crimes that cant be forgiven)
why did kallen suddenly started getting more hate after opposing lelouch when there is no logical reasons for this
why did NUNNALY, get hate for opposing him

why did suzaku suddenly became so popular after joining lelouch despite becoming completely derailed in both morals and motives (and not being very popular to begin with)
why did NINA (queen of the geass scrappy's) get completely forgiven after joining him
why did C.C not get hate after revealing that she had spent the entire anime planing to back-stab lelouch, and was in effect responsilbe for parcticlly all the shit that happened to him because she hid the truth from him

my problem is that lelouch's leather pants also rub off on everyone around him
and this forms a complete detachment between what happens in the story, and what the fans choose to see

if your with lelouch, you get love
if you oppose lelouch, you get hate
and thats moral dissonance on the part of the viewers
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power"

Ah, I gotta admit, I'm with you here, blade. Sometimes the "with Lelouch = awesome, against Lelouch = evil" attitude bothers me a little... however, I don't think the people you were arguing with actually followed that line of thinking. You seem to mostly be talking about the hordes of mindless fandom (man. That sounds mean) who really did get all hate-tastic on the others unless they were following Lelouch instead of opposing him --- not the people here, who generally don't seem to have too much hate for anyone. (Except for maybe Gino )

That's why people got pissed off, because it sounded like you were telling us that we shouldn't like Lelouch unless he was a good guy, and that it was wrong of us to feel sorry for and sympathize with and forgive him when not all of us were necessarily ready to forgive or sympathize with all the other characters.. :/

[synaesthetic]

The very simple version of "Why Cori likes Lelouch:"

I like Lelouch as a protagonist in a fictional work because he's an interesting take on the typical main character.

He isn't a hero, he's not even an anti-hero. He evolves and develops.

He starts out as a well-intentioned extremist Byronic hero and gradually crosses over into magnificent bastard villain protagonist territory.

He's stunningly attractive to look at, but we can chalk that up to generic anime cuteness and CLAMP character designs. Fangirls fixate on this, but it's a minor point for me.

Jun Fukuyama does a fantastic job voicing him. Such a fantastic job that every time I hear a role he plays I think of Lelouch (Sora Kake Girl doesn't count since Leopard is an intentional expy of Lelouch).

He's an ENORMOUS ham, especially in both his Zero and 99th Emperor of Britannia personas. I am inordinately fond of ham.

He constantly pulls Xanatos Gambits off with the speed and skill of a quick-draw champion. Code Geass is essentially a massive Thirty Xanatos Pileup and yet Lelouch does not often get tangled in his own plots.

When he goes into superpowered evil overlord mode, his hamminess and flair for the dramatic are TURNED UP TO ELEVEN.

"Lelouch vi Britannia commands you... world, OBEY ME!"

How is that scene not awesome? I will call anyone out on this--if you say you weren't grinning wickedly and cackling in villainous delight while watching that scene, you are a liar.

[snowdevil_crow]

Actually... to be perfectly honest, I didn't really like Lelouch as the Emperor. ^^' I prefer Byronic hero to villain protagonist, myself, and IMO he still continued as a Byronic hero (with deep, deep flaws) even when he was Emperor... just... yeah. I dunno.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The very simple version of "Why Cori likes Lelouch:"

I like Lelouch as a protagonist in a fictional work because he's an interesting take on the typical main character.

He isn't a hero, he's not even an anti-hero. He evolves and develops.

He starts out as a well-intentioned extremist Byronic hero and gradually crosses over into magnificent bastard villain protagonist territory.

He's stunningly attractive to look at, but we can chalk that up to generic anime cuteness and CLAMP character designs. Fangirls fixate on this, but it's a minor point for me.

Jun Fukuyama does a fantastic job voicing him. Such a fantastic job that every time I hear a role he plays I think of Lelouch (Sora Kake Girl doesn't count since Leopard is an intentional expy of Lelouch).

He's an ENORMOUS ham, especially in both his Zero and 99th Emperor of Britannia person[/FONT]as. I am inordinately fond of ham.

He constantly pulls Xanatos Gambits off with the speed and skill of a quick-draw champion. Code Geass is essentially a massive Thirty Xanatos Pileup and yet Lelouch does not often get tangled in his own plots.

When he goes into superpowered evil overlord mode, his hamminess and flair for the dramatic are TURNED UP TO ELEVEN.

"Lelouch vi Britannia commands you... world, OBEY ME!"

How is that scene not awesome? I will call anyone out on this--if you say you weren't grinning wickedly and cackling in villainous delight while watching that scene, you are a liar.

Personally, i came buckets with the finale of Turn 21. I was majorly wtf-ed, why Lelouch/Suzu would combo together, but God, the scene was oozing from awesome-ness. Same, with the scene you mentioned, just FUCK YAH.

[synaesthetic]

His not-so-heroic BSOD after Nunnally's "death" via FLEIA is what drove him into full-blown evil mode, but Emperor Lelouch is so hammy it's hard for me not to like him.

I'm a self-admitted villain fan, especially when they're so ridiculously OTT you just can't help but laugh.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

His not-so-heroic BSOD after Nunnally's "death" via FLEIA is what drove him into full-blown evil mode, but Emperor Lelouch is so hammy it's hard for me not to like him.

I'm a self-admitted villain fan, especially when they're so ridiculously OTT you just can't help but laugh.

Yeah, you gotta wonder, if Lelouch enjoyed just a bit, being a real dick. I mean, apart from the real goal, of world hating him blah blah, i am pretty sure, he jizzed a bit on his pants, pawning everyone back then. 8D

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Personally, i came buckets with the finale of Turn 21. I was majorly wtf-ed, why Lelouch/Suzu would combo together, but God, the scene was oozing from awesome-ness. Same, with the scene you mentioned, just FUCK YAH.

If circumstances had been different, if Suzaku had used his head for something other than holding his helmet up, if Lelouch had been slightly less villainous... the two would have been absolutely unstoppable as an allied force against Britannia's hegemony.

This will happen in my R2 fix fic, since Euphie doesn't get killed by Lelouch, but by someone else.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Yeah, you gotta wonder, if Lelouch enjoyed just a bit, being a real dick. I mean, apart from the real goal, of world hating him blah blah, i am pretty sure, he jizzed a bit on his pants, pawning everyone back then. 8D

*laughs* Totally agreed.

[zongetsu]

You are all missing the point. It wasn’t he was evil or bad, it was just the MASK he used to deal with the confrontations. It was an act. Just like when he met nunnally and she opened her eyes. He acted like a complete dick to her yet we all saw that he really meant the opposite. He was still the kind loving brother. Even if it made people hate him he was fine with it because he knew what he was doing was the right thing to do.

From a long time ago….

Originally Posted by morbofist

Just drop it. You're being stupid. Biglobe didn't make the show, and their site is the one you've latched on to out of desperation. They don't matter because they didn't make the show. Only the Sunrise one could be considered remotely canon.

Wow, attack bioglobe. Want me to show you what you’re doing? Bioglobe doesn’t count because it has a little chance of lelouch being alive so you list all the other “official sites”. And then you specifically say, official sites are not more cannon than the creators. But they aren’t more cannon, they are equally cannon. Its not a sunrise site. Don’t make me laugh, check out the sunrise site, it has nothing more, maybe even less than the bioglobe site. Just because its powered by it doesn’t mean nothing. The info would have been changed by sunrise as bioglobe is an official sponcer no? If they all aren’t in sync then somethings wrong.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Dude, Lelouch is dead. The whole ZR was about that mainly, Excalibur pierced the shit out of him {and before you use the "but C.C GOT SHOT AS WELL!111 AND CAME BACK} most importantly, it was stated just so they will not be stupid rumors. //until they decide to troll us for milking

lmfao, “CC got shot as well” what kind of shit comeback is that? Who would even say something that stupid? Oh yeah you guys would. Just like morbofist said Nunnally saw the flashback “just because”. LMFAO


And you still miss the point of Zero Requiem epically. It was not to punish anyone. The true intention of Zero Requiem was to allow the world to be able to negotiate instead of fight. To allow people to be kind to one another. Lelouch’s plan was simple, and that was to gather all the hate on him, unite the world in a common cause, and then destroy the hate. Anyone even watch the show? That would be called braking the chain of hatred, something he and suzaku sought from the very beginning.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i suggest you read about something called cognitive dissonance
its when you attribute higher rate of value to factors that support the conclusion that YOU WANT to be true, while attributing less importance to the factors that contradict it

Uh…you should actually look into this because I’ve looked at everything that contradicts anything and almost everything contradicts his death.

For instance, nunnally read his “dying intentions” in a split second by touching his hand, or somehow she was able to pear into his mind, perhaps merging of conscious?

That easily would contradict anything you would say or do. Even the authors would have to explain that. Its not “just because” like morbofist insist. I have never heard that explaination.

You check out the scene and the only other time we have seen a scene even close to what happened was when Lelouch touched CC when her code was active and they merged consciousnesses with each other. Same way. Now which is more likely…hmm….

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

namely, your attributing a LESSER importance to stuff like Word of God, official releases, lelouch's OWN WORDS about why he has to die (and suzaku trying to talk him out of it at first)

Do you really think I would debate this like a noob and not look at any official material? How stupid do you think I am? I’ve seen everything ranging from books to character songs and I will admit, the guidebook does indeed state his own death about 5 times on his page. But…that was his story. The life of Lelouch vi Britannia/Lamperouge. The book alone fails to say “nunnally had magic powers or read his intentions instantly because she is a ninja”. It also fails to explain the “never yearns for CC” part. As I saw it, the reaction in r2 ep 24 was not a normal reaction and neither was the mood for the scene. You know it too, yet you refuse to admit it. cognitive dissonance lmfao

The easiest way to show this is, if lelouch lived he would be a fag so he has to die to be a hero. That is your own opinion. That is cognitive dissconance. So you interpret anything as him dead because deep down, you want him to be dead, you want to see him as a hero. But what is so wrong about him being alive? It would ruin him for you, thus “he is dead”.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and whether or not he HAD to do what he did (i still call bullshit on that, he could have ruled britannia for decades and forged peace through that) it doesnt change the fact that he became a completely unlikeable character

He could have, yet you missed the point, he wanted to “erase” Euphy from history. Him become a dick was essencial. Perhaps cognitive dissonances? LMFAO

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the part where he was using woman and children as human shields ?
the part where he brainwashed untold thousends of people into being his "slaves" and then making them all wear masks that make it even MORE clear that these are no longer human beings ?
the part where he told his little sister that she represents everything he despises
the part where he was sending his soldiers in waves with the instructions (go get killed until he runs out of ammo ?
i know, maybe it was the part where he had declared that he would spill rivers of blood to make people forget about euphie

oo…the last part, maybe you did get it, but that is only part of it. The other part was to guarantee his survival because it was his sin to bear, and his sin to complete. If he died then the world would return to how it was before so it was nessecary to use people as shields even though he knew it was wrong. It was the path he chose, the path of carnage. At one point in time he was regretting it, however he matured in the series.

Then sure he told nunnally a lot of shit, but he didn’t want her to get involved. It was to push her away and have him deal with it alone. Didn’t you hear him say that she had become strong enough where she didn’t need him anymore and that he could walk his own path now. Not only that, but he had also become strong enough where he didn’t need to worry about her anymore.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch said "to make people forget about ONE massacre (massacre being, the act of killing many people) for which i am responsible, i will create a much MUCH larger massacre (the act of killing many MANY people)"

You must really think im stupid, I swear to god. First of all, you have to know when he said this. Im pretty sure he is referring to Euphy’s massacre. He is responsible for that one so in order to make them forget, he will willingly cause more people to die under one title, his name, lelouch vi Britannia. He will be known as the one who destroyed the world, not just the one who killed 11’s. He killed everyone and made everyone his enemy. Did he say this in r2 ep 22? It seems fitting.

Then you miss the point of his trying to change the world. The other people where trying to change the world into a world they wanted. Lelouch was trying to change the world into a world they people would want. He just made them not want to fight anymore. Hence huge war, millions of people dying. A monarchy. Yep….he did not change the world, he was merely the stepping stone to change it.


Bladeofdarkness you are merely hell bent on him being dead. Why cant you see the fact that he still would lose his life in he lived. If he was with CC, he would have lost everything that was important to him, his sister, his friends, society? He would have to live an eternally doomed life.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by zongetsu

But they aren’t more cannon, they are equally cannon. Its not a sunrise site. Don’t make me laugh, check out the sunrise site, it has nothing more, maybe even less than the bioglobe site. Just because its powered by it doesn’t mean nothing. The info would have been changed by sunrise as bioglobe is an official sponcer no? If they all aren’t in sync then somethings wrong.

They are not equally canon, they are not even canon. They're just there to promote the show and draw interest. They are not all in sync, because believe it or not Biglobe has bigger things to deal with than the minor details of a show it pays Sunrise to insert references to its product into. If they cared, they wouldn't have stopped updating the show info after Turn 24. When you address this point, I will take you seriously. Until then, all you're doing is holding your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" at anything that might upset your delicate world view.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by zongetsu

You are all missing the point. It wasn’t he was evil or bad, it was just the MASK he used to deal with the confrontations. It was an act. Just like when he met nunnally and she opened her eyes. He acted like a complete dick to her yet we all saw that he really meant the opposite. He was still the kind loving brother. Even if it made people hate him he was fine with it because he knew what he was doing was the right thing to do.

This is actually a matter of definition.
I usually don't use the term "evil" because I think it sounds too much like an adjective for flat characters and mythological creatutes who are just doing it for the lulz.
But if there is such a thing as "evil", then I believe someone can commit evil actions even with the best of intentions, and in the end, you have to decide for yourself if world peace achieved through those actions can make up for it.
I would never call Lelouch "evil" because to me, it sounds like an attempt to sum him up with just one word gone completely wrong. If I were to tell someone who hasn't watched the show and started out with "You see, the protagonist is that evil guy that...", it wouldn't be wrong, exactly. It would describe one aspect of his character, but one that simply can't stand on its own.
So, we'd have to discuss the nature of evil first to continue this, and that's definitely the wrong thread for that.

And you still miss the point of Zero Requiem epically. It was not to punish anyone. The true intention of Zero Requiem was to allow the world to be able to negotiate instead of fight. To allow people to be kind to one another. Lelouch’s plan was simple, and that was to gather all the hate on him, unite the world in a common cause, and then destroy the hate. Anyone even watch the show? That would be called braking the chain of hatred, something he and suzaku sought from the very beginning.

Actually, Lelouch did want to punish himself. It wasn't the main reason for Zero Requiem, but it still is important.
The Mutuality side stories say so, and so does the official statement about Lelouch and Suzaku inflicting punishment on each other.

Bladeofdarkness you are merely hell bent on him being dead. Why cant you see the fact that he still would lose his life in he lived. If he was with CC, he would have lost everything that was important to him, his sister, his friends, society? He would have to live an eternally doomed life.

The thing is, if Lelouch did it on purpose, it would mean he lied to Suzaku, and this alone contradicts not only the nature of their relationship but also the official statement about them being "completely naked in front of each other". Oh, look, I made delicious innuende without meaning to!
If we go with the "he didn't mean to" thing instead, Lelouch surviving would be perfectly fine with me, even though I strongly believe this is not the official stand point at the moment and might very well never be.

And concerning Cluclu... even if Lelouch were alive, I still doubt they would be anything but "accomplices", which is also a strong and awesome bond.
But that's the wrong thread for that.

[synaesthetic]

dude, come on.

he's dead. deader than dead. dead, dead, dead.

spinzaku killed him to death via penetration.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

spinzaku killed him to death via penetration.

Yep. Even Suzaku needs to be seme sometimes.
People should respect that and stop trying to butcher his ego.

Lelouch would agree!

[synaesthetic]

"My name is Lelouch vi Britannia and I approve of this message."

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

"My name is Lelouch vi Britannia and I approve of this message."

Omg, he returned from the death to defend Suzaku's fragile semeness!
It's a sign!

And I'm supposed to tell everyone here that Clovis also approves. He says if he can be killed by Lelouch's gun without anyone seeing his beautiful brains dancing through the room, a death on screen should definitely count.
He also laments about people judging him by different standards just because he's more beautiful than them, but I'll spare you the details, awesome as they might be.

[snowdevil_crow]

zongetsu, give up already. Please.

And <3 semezaku. Though when you think about it, Lelouch has more of a seme personality than an uke one... aside from the physical failure, I mean...

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

And <3 semezaku. Though when you think about it, Lelouch has more of a seme personality than an uke one... aside from the physical failure, I mean...

Yep, which is why I'm a firm believer in not!uke!Lelouch. xD
I don't care if he's seme or neither, but people tend to make him so horribly... uke, and it irks me. xD
But I'll admit to having double-standards here. Uke!Suzaku is almost always fine with me.

[snowdevil_crow]

I like fumbling!clueless!Lelouch in my PWP no matter who he's with, but for some reason I think it's really hot when he manages to dominate Suzaku due to personality rather than strength. I... I don't know why.

Semezaku is still <3

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

I like fumbling!clueless!Lelouch in my PWP no matter who he's with, but for some reason I think it's really hot when he manages to dominate Suzaku due to personality rather than strength. I... I don't know why.

Semezaku is still <3

Let's take this to the fanfiction thread and properly fangirl the topic. xD
*does just that*