[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Again, you have to look at the two Battlers. One's had extensive character growth over six installments. One gets his memories reset every time. They simply can't be referred to as the "same person."

You could probably apply the same logic to Beatrice and whoever she is on the board.

The same can't be said for Piece and Meta-Erika, however. They essentially act as the same person in the narrative 100% of the time.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by TehChron

The same can't be said for Piece and Meta-Erika, however. They essentially act as the same person in the narrative 100% of the time.

Which is very, very weird because this happens to noone else but HER.

Maybe Piece-Erika from EP5 was just tossed out and recreated (with Meta-Erika's memories) in mind.

Or it was a 'miracle'.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Renall

Again, you have to look at the two Battlers. One's had extensive character growth over six installments. One gets his memories reset every time. They simply can't be referred to as the "same person."

You could probably apply the same logic to Beatrice and whoever she is on the board.

Yep i agree with that, strangely you can't apply that for Erika. At the dinner she is eager to start the game to get back at Battler (I'm not sure if that was Meta talk) and she talks about red truth and Battler's knowlage about books from a previous episode. (that was clearly not Meta)

Also i can't believe that Erika killed them in that short and dangerous timeframe.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Yep i agree with that, strangely you can't apply that for Erika. At the dinner she is eager to start the game to get back at Battler (I'm not sure if that was Meta talk) and she talks about red truth and Battler's knowlage about books from a previous episode. (that was clearly not Meta)

Also i can't believe that Erika killed them in that short and dangerous timeframe.

That, and Erika actually used the Red Text on the gameboard.
Something like Detective's authority! I have the right to investigate the scene of the crime!

Erika's a different case; I'm not sure of the significance of this.

[Renall]

Erika still has the ep5 issue and several instances in ep6 where she is not behaving as if Meta-Erika. There is a clear distinction, it's just not as blatantly separated as the two Battlers (where, at best, Meta-Battler communicates a vague idea to Piece-Battler in the ep4 Tea Party).

They are different people. Meta-Erika is just more whole-cloth lifted from a more two-dimensional character, so they appear to overlap.

[winter 923]

Here is my problem with piece-Erika. Piece-Battler resets after every Episode, if Erika follows the same rules that would mean that she knows before the game about the red truth (that's hard to believe) and that Battler read many books (knowlage which she obtained in EP5 which he denies in EP6 so that knowlage can't come from World 6 or he lied)

Spoiler for Erika quotes EP6:

"...It seems the game with the witch has toughened you up quite a lot. ...Puzzles without specified rules-- in other words, all things not covered by the red truth-- are left to the observer's interpretation. ...It's the most basic of methods for constructing gaps in the witch's closed rooms."
If this isn't some Mystery fan lingo then there are only 2 options for me.
1. She already met someone resembling Battler "long ago" who played with a "witch" in this World
2. She knows about the Meta-Games

With reset i mean that the pieces don't know about the previous World. I don't care if they have different past's eg. Maria's Halloween lolipop.

[Leafsnail]

Meta Battler also seems to give Piece Battler an idea for clearing Kanon in episode 2.

I'd be tempted to say that the Erika we see is a similar entity to Beatrice, and can thus have any level of knowledge she likes, but...

[LuckySovietStar]

Wild epileptic tree:
"Re-killing" is not equal to "killing".
"Re-killing"=helping someone who is playing dead,
"All five I killed" might refer to people killed outside gameboard, not dead players. They cant save Battler, but they can save Kanon.
Final Truth of Erika is Detective Declaration.

...Im joking still, "re" part of "re-killing" bugs me. Also, if she killed five people in total, can she or can't she kill Kanon in the closet?

On more serious note:
Anyone tried to include meanings of magic circles into some theory, or are they just discarded as part of magic mind screw setup?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Here is my problem with piece-Erika. Piece-Battler resets after every Episode, if Erika follows the same rules that would mean that she knows before the game about the red truth (that's hard to believe) and that Battler read many books (knowlage which she obtained in EP5 which he denies in EP6 so that knowlage can't come from World 6 or he lied)

With reset i mean that the pieces don't know about the previous World. I don't care if they have different past's eg. Maria's Halloween lolipop.

Kanon and Shannon also indicate at certain times that previous worlds existed, yet at other times display no knowledge of it. It's a thorny problem that seems to be exercised to varying degrees by other characters dependent on meta-existences (Battler, Beatrice, Erika, Kanon/Shannon). Oddly, it doesn't seem to affect Genji and Kumasawa very much, if at all, despite having clearly-identified meta-identities.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Erika still has the ep5 issue and several instances in ep6 where she is not behaving as if Meta-Erika. There is a clear distinction, it's just not as blatantly separated as the two Battlers (where, at best, Meta-Battler communicates a vague idea to Piece-Battler in the ep4 Tea Party).

They are different people. Meta-Erika is just more whole-cloth lifted from a more two-dimensional character, so they appear to overlap.

When is this? When is there a line demonstrated?

[Renall]

Basically any time she's behaving more akin to her ep5 incarnation, which is usually just before or after her outbursts. About the only time this happens in ep5 is at the meal, where everyone ignores it (vs. finding it strange in ep6).

Meta-Erika makes a show of certain things being her direct idea (such as separating people into the rooms), but I'm not entirely convinced that's an instance of her "directing" anything, because I'm pretty sure that's not actually possible.

The main problem would be the bedroom talk with Dlanor where she very clearly isn't Piece-Erika (or else she was talking to an object-as-Dlanor or something). But that scene was unobserved.

We shouldn't conflate "Erika and Meta-Erika both react to a situation the same way" as evidence that they are the same. Battler and BATTLER would react in the same way to certain situations too. Erika is drawn very closely from a fictional character (herself), and is going to behave mostly accordingly. However, her actions must be explicable in the board narrative in every sense unless you are advancing the notion that Dawn of the Golden Witch features all meta-world scenes, which I don't think works.

[Disz]

I have to agree with Renall.


Erika should follow the same rules.Did she go to the library in the episode?And if she did,before or after this conversation?


If it was before,you can probably assume one of these novels is in the library somewhere,written by the message bottle person.You can label that whoever you like.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Basically any time she's behaving more akin to her ep5 incarnation, which is usually just before or after her outbursts. About the only time this happens in ep5 is at the meal, where everyone ignores it (vs. finding it strange in ep6).

Meta-Erika makes a show of certain things being her direct idea (such as separating people into the rooms), but I'm not entirely convinced that's an instance of her "directing" anything, because I'm pretty sure that's not actually possible.

The main problem would be the bedroom talk with Dlanor where she very clearly isn't Piece-Erika (or else she was talking to an object-as-Dlanor or something). But that scene was unobserved.

Then why make such an effort to demonstrate that Erika as a character is an entirely meta-level construction? Her being alive and interacting with the characters is directly stated to be an aberration to the game board, and is among the things Virgilia was referring to when comparing End to making doodles on a chess board in the middle of a game.

We shouldn't conflate "Erika and Meta-Erika both react to a situation the same way" as evidence that they are the same. Battler and BATTLER would react in the same way to certain situations too. Erika is drawn very closely from a fictional character (herself), and is going to behave mostly accordingly. However, her actions must be explicable in the board narrative in every sense unless you are advancing the notion that Dawn of the Golden Witch features all meta-world scenes, which I don't think works.

I disagree.

I would actually argue that the Dawn of the Golden Witch consists almost entirely of Fantasy Scenes, not meta ones.

There is ample evidence that Furude Erika as a character exists only as a Meta-construct. Not that she is actually a participant in the games. Piece-Beato, for example, often uses magic and such in fantasy scenes, despite not being an actual distinct flesh and blood human herself. The same can be said of Erika, in that the characters existence on the Meta-level is what creates their Piece-Counterpart.

There is very little suggested, shown, or even vaguely implied that Piece-Erika is a separate entity from Meta-Erika. We only infer it because BATTLER and Battler are considered unique individuals.

Same with Maria and MARIA.

But even as a witch, the name used when referring to her remains the same as her piece counterpart. Erika is Erika is Erika, she is never ERIKA, and she is never indicated to be a separate character on the meta-level.

Since she wasn't even on the game board to begin with, she is inherently a meta-level construct, her presence on the board is only contingent upon her being recognized on the meta-level.

Meta-Erika is Piece-Erika is Erika, there's no distinction. She's clearly demonstrated to be a Mary Sue-type of exception to the normal set up. That's important.

[Aspirety]

Hey, wait a sec. Isn't the idea of pieces retaining memories from past games a complete contradiction of the logic of the games? It cannot possibly exist in reality, therefore, it has to be illusion or meta. Right?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Then why make such an effort to demonstrate that Erika as a character is an entirely meta-level construction? Her being alive and interacting with the characters is directly stated to be an aberration to the game board, and is among the things Virgilia was referring to when comparing End to making doodles on a chess board in the middle of a game.

No, it's stated to be an aberration to Beatrice's game. If Erika Furudo exists in the first-order world in a fictional story called Dawn of the Golden Witch, she is a character whether she "belongs" in the Rokkenjima story or not.

I disagree.

I would actually argue that the Dawn of the Golden Witch consists almost entirely of Fantasy Scenes, not meta ones.

So are you arguing that Erika is not a character in Dawn of the Golden Witch? If so, what was Dawn of the Golden Witch about?

There is ample evidence that Furude Erika as a character exists only as a Meta-construct. Not that she is actually a participant in the games. Piece-Beato, for example, often uses magic and such in fantasy scenes, despite not being an actual distinct flesh and blood human herself. The same can be said of Erika, in that the characters existence on the Meta-level is what creates their Piece-Counterpart.

I'm curious where this "ample evidence" is, as it runs up against all the red and other issues. Yes, there is "erika-doesn't-exist" sentiment, but I think a fiction theory works best for that because it permits an Erika that never really existed and an Erika who absolutely did as a fictional character in a second-order fiction read by someone on the first-order fiction layer. Erika's hard to edit out of a work like this. Is it possible she was inserted between the second-order fiction and wherever the hell we are in ep6? Yes. Is it likely? I doubt it.

There is very little suggested, shown, or even vaguely implied that Piece-Erika is a separate entity from Meta-Erika. We only infer it because BATTLER and Battler are considered unique individuals.

Same with Maria and MARIA.

But even as a witch, the name used when referring to her remains the same as her piece counterpart. Erika is Erika is Erika, she is never ERIKA, and she is never indicated to be a separate character on the meta-level.

Actually, they do distinguish between her with different names using red text, though it's never been specifically suggested that this means anything in particular, but it is part of the whole erika ball concept.

She also calls herself a witch on several occasions.

I'd be careful assuming that because Maria changes into MARIA but Erika doesn't seem to change in the jump from board to meta/magic scene that Erika didn't swap places with Meta-Erika as well.

Since she wasn't even on the game board to begin with, she is inherently a meta-level construct, her presence on the board is only contingent upon her being recognized on the meta-level.

You're going to run into a lot of problems if you make the argument she doesn't exist on the board. They exist, but people aren't too comfortable with them.

Meta-Erika is Piece-Erika is Erika, there's no distinction. She's clearly demonstrated to be a Mary Sue-type of exception to the normal set up. That's important.

They are distinguished. They're just very, very similar. That is important, true. However, I think it more likely she does exist in the fiction of End and Dawn, as a fictional character. She never existed/died in the first-order fiction ("reality"), but does exist in second-order fictions only (specifically 5/6), and is elevated as a character (and/or author stand-in) on the meta-layer, which is something else entirely.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

No, it's stated to be an aberration to Beatrice's game. If Erika Furudo exists in the first-order world in a fictional story called Dawn of the Golden Witch, she is a character whether she "belongs" in the Rokkenjima story or not.

The entire Rokkenjimma mystery and the various Umineko Episodes have been referred to as "Beatrice's Game" throughout the course of the story. The only Episode thus far that has been indicated to not take place on Beato's game board has been Requiem. Which, coincidentally, did not feature Erika at all.

So are you arguing that Erika is not a character in Dawn of the Golden Witch? If so, what was Dawn of the Golden Witch about?I'm curious where this "ample evidence" is, as it runs up against all the red and other issues.

Your argument is that obfuscation via using markedly different, arguably synonymous words in the Red equates to some kind of unassailable single interpretation of both statements.

Ha.

Yes, there is "erika-doesn't-exist" sentiment, but I think a fiction theory works best for that because it permits an Erika that never really existed and an Erika who absolutely did as a fictional character in a second-order fiction read by someone on the first-order fiction layer.

I'm not arguing against that.

If the point is that Erika is entirely a first-order fiction creation, then she only exists conceptually at the meta-level. She is then applied from that First Order fiction to the second order fiction.

I.E. She is still something created and applied via the meta-level/first order to the second order-fiction/game board.

Erika's hard to edit out of a work like this. Is it possible she was inserted between the second-order fiction and wherever the hell we are in ep6? Yes. Is it likely? I doubt it.

"When the Impossible is ruled out, whatever is left, however implausible, must be the truth"

Actually, they do distinguish between her with different names using red text, though it's never been specifically suggested that this means anything in particular, but it is part of the whole erika ball concept.

Where is this?

She also calls herself a witch on several occasions.

But her name remains the same, even as a witch. I pointed that out. That's markedly different from the situation with ANGE, MARIA, and BATTLER.

I'd be careful assuming that because Maria changes into MARIA but Erika doesn't seem to change in the jump from board to meta/magic scene that Erika didn't swap places with Meta-Erika as well.

So fantasy scenes are meta now?

You're going to run into a lot of problems if you make the argument she doesn't exist on the board. They exist, but people aren't too comfortable with them.

Sure she does. She's a random corpse that washes up only to be blow to bits or back out to sea from the explosion.

They are distinguished.

When? At what point are they distinguished?

They're just very, very similar. That is important, true. However, I think it more likely she does exist in the fiction of End and Dawn, as a fictional character. She never existed/died in the first-order fiction ("reality"), but does exist in second-order fictions only (specifically 5/6), and is elevated as a character (and/or author stand-in) on the meta-layer, which is something else entirely.

Ok, I'll play along here.

So what? What difference does such a differentiation make? All it does is create two characters that are literally exactly the same for no discernible narrative reason. Ryukishi treats them as the same character, therefore it's logical to conclude that they were presented and exist as one character, rather than two.

But let's say you're right. What purpose does that distinction serve?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by TehChron

But let's say you're right. What purpose does that distinction serve?

It allows a Furudo Erika to exist in the second-order fiction Dawn of the Golden Witch who is, while not a well-written character, not a raving fourth-wall-breaking lunatic. The Furudo Erika who appears in End of the Golden Witch is, again, not a very well-written character, but the non-Meta instance of her there is at least believable as a bad character in a bad piece of fiction under most circumstances.

However, because Erika is a thinly-characterized fictional character playing to a variety of stereotypes, it is much easier to blur the distinction between her and her higher-order representations. People like Battler and Beatrice are based on complicated and complex individuals who (may have) really existed; part of the argument against pieces acting against their nature is that these people had particular natures which a fiction author cannot contradict (or if they do, we have not been shown such poor works).

Erika is less restrictive in this fashion due to being more trope-aware and two-dimensional (ironically granting her greater character breadth in exchange for depth), but she still has restrictions. How restrictive that is depends upon what exactly is contained in the second-order fiction:

• All Text, Including Meta-World Text: At this point your suggestion is possible, but only at this point. This is the only way for Erika to demonstrate second-order character continuity. It turns Dawn into a piece of post-modern nonsense as a sequel to End, but it theoretically works. It's also a giant mess.
• Only Magic & Board Text: At this point Erika's portrayal in the fiction can no longer be considered sensible if we believe that the second-order fiction depicts her acting out in meta-knowledge fashion. The sole exception is if her aberrant behavior is simply introduced unexplained in the text, meant to make as little sense to the reader as to the characters. The problem is that if both End and Dawn don't contain the meta-fiction, Erika is talking about events which have never appeared in any fiction at all. Note that this is the most comfortable level of layering for ep1-4, but it breaks down (pun intended) in Chiru, suggesting perhaps that this wasn't the case all along.
• Only Board Text: Here, not only must Erika's behavior conform strictly to the 1986 narrative, it means we have seen a gross distortion and severely abbreviated version of both End and Dawn which presumably contain a complete game each. Erika's behavior in these games must make sense, and so must everyone else's; given that, the entire affair of the Logic Error room is a strictly meta-construction, as are (probably) the sealings, leaving the Logic Error more a "what if these conditions were added to Dawn" situation than a representation of the actual events of the story (in which, presumably, Kanon saves Battler "by mistake").

Automatically aspiring to the highest layer is a mistake. EP6 throws this in our faces with the Tohya/Featherine stuff, which puts no fewer than two additional layers into play. One of these layers is clearly intended to be on a plane over all others including the meta-layer (which is already a problem) while the other is not clearly placed anywhere at all and could be anything from first-order fiction to lowest-level board fiction.

A Tohya in a layer, wherever we place it (and it's important and unresolved what layer that is) has a work entitled Dawn of the Golden Witch. What this manuscript contains, however, we never see. Ange reads a story to Featherine which is implied to also be Dawn of the Golden Witch, and this story does appear to contain the meta-layer digression. However, both layers have significant problems:

• The "real 1998" layer features Ange having a conflict in her memory as to something she "did" but has not yet actually done. There's only one way to explain this and still be in first-order fiction.
• Chick-Beato, a character from a supposedly-lower layer, and Bernkastel, a character who mostly exists on a lower layer, both visit the same layer as Featherine/ANGE exist on. Exactly how this can happen contemporaneously with ANGE reading Featherine a story about those people is never adequately explained.

That is the essential question here, the one Ange raises: Is Featherine Tohya (that is, Tohya is on a layer over Featherine), or is Tohya Featherine (that is, Featherine is on a layer over Tohya)? In other words, in what order are we stacking the cups, how many cups do we have, and what is contained within each?

[winter 923]

I think Erika is real, the same as Kinzo or Beatrice. Meaning they exist/existed in some kind of form but are used as Scapegoats. I also think most of EP6 are magic scenes, this would explain the after dinner discussion (and that it is not dated).

Shannon and Kanon are reffering to previous worlds only when they are alone or in a magic scene. EP6 wants us to believe that Erika did that in a room with almost everyone in, including Battler and directed to Battler who is to believed a trustworthy source.

Here is a random question. What did everyone thought while reading this EP your first time about all the "Battler's room" narrations? I seriously thought someone or something was trapped, nevermind the details being real or magic. After finishing EP6 i thought "oh that was Battler" but here it gets strange!
That would mean the timeframe jumps around without any notification from "storymode" to "frozen in the aftergame" and some of the text isn't very Battler like. "Light (...) and it seemd to carry with it laughter that was warm and happy" "I'm sure my family will be there" "Dad...Mom..." What warm laughter? he already knows that Kyrie is dead. Why Dad and Mom and not Oyaji and Kyrie?

[Renall]

The "trapped in the Logic Error" scenes are inlaid with contemporaneous portions of the board text and meant to make it seem like the person is trapped inside at that time. It does not conform to either the board text (no one is trapped anywhere at that time) or the meta-text (where Battler is clearly trapped within a particular timeframe, and that is not when most of those scenes appear). There are ways around this:

• Those scenes were added in by the author as a narrative flourish, and are foreshadowing disguised. If no meta-scenes appear in the text, they are meant to be there for some other reason we don't get to see.
• Battler is blurring his fiction and his reality as the Logic Error drives him insane, and is misremembering things from the board story as happening now.
• The scenes are meta-only or higher-order-meta-only (i.e. not known to the meta-layer characters but possibly to Featherine/ANGE) and do not exist in the text of Dawn, so they can be filled in wherever.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AspieSincerity

Hey, wait a sec. Isn't the idea of pieces retaining memories from past games a complete contradiction of the logic of the games? It cannot possibly exist in reality, therefore, it has to be illusion or meta. Right?

That also applies to Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice.
Interesting...