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Dengar · 2013-12-26, 06:28

Makes sense, when servants run out of prana, they disappear. This much was true even for Gilgamesh. The difference with Gilgamesh is that he got a physical body when the grail went berserk, so he doesn't need anyone to be his anchor anymore.

Stanfoo · 2013-12-26, 18:50

What age was Saber when she drew the sword from the stone?

GDB · 2013-12-26, 18:57

14, I believe. And if I calculated correctly, she died at around 56 years of age.

Cherry_Lover · 2013-12-26, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanfoo

Is it the lesser grail or the greater grail that allows servants to stay in the real world? I've always thought that without the lesser grail, servants wouldn't be able to stay in the real world, as was what happened in FZ when Saber destroyed the lesser grail (cup). Someone I'm talking to claims the lesser grail has no part in servants being able to stay in the real world.

If I'm wrong, then what caused Saber's disappearance?

The Great Grail is what causes servants to remain in the world. The lesser Grail only exists to gather and store souls.

And, Saber disappeared because she ran out of prana and because the Great Grail only has enough prana to materialise servants for a couple of weeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I don't think a Grail is needed to keep a servant in the world. Only a prana source and a master(anchor) is needed.

Spoiler for Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel Endings:

A Servant without a master has to have the Independent Action skill to stay in the world for a certain amount of time.

This is true, however the Great Grail does supply a substantial amount of the prana a servant needs to remain. A normal magus like Shirou cannot sustain a servant without it, even someone like Rin would find it difficult on her own.

Stanfoo · 2013-12-26, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

The Great Grail is what causes servants to remain in the world. The lesser Grail only exists to gather and store souls.

And, Saber disappeared because she ran out of prana and because the Great Grail only has enough prana to materialise servants for a couple of weeks.

I see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

14, I believe. And if I calculated correctly, she died at around 56 years of age.

The TypeMoon wiki states "she only knew victory for ten years and twelve battles while she ran through those days as the king". If she died at around age 56 then that means she ruled for over 40 years as king. Not questioning you but it conflicts with what the wiki says. Can you provide more details?

GDB · 2013-12-26, 23:46

Been a long time since I calculated it, so it'd be tough to find. However, those 12 battles come from Nennius, which details Arthur through 12 battles, the 12th of which being the Battle of Mons Badonicus. That battle was sometime between 516 and 518. The Battle of the Hills of Camlann wasn't until 537-539.

Considering he was said to rule from the late 5th century to early 6th century, that's at least another 17 years before Mons Madonicus. Taking an age of 14 for pulling the Sword, and assuming the latest possible date of 499, to death at the earliest of 537, that'd be 38 + 14 = 52 years old. Minimum.

Fireminer · 2013-12-27, 00:06

That remind me: If a Hero die of old age, would the grail resurrected him in the condition when he died - old and senile, or would it be him in his young and glorius day? In short, does the Grail always bring out the strongest form of a Servant?

Cherry_Lover · 2013-12-27, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

Been a long time since I calculated it, so it'd be tough to find. However, those 12 battles come from Nennius, which details Arthur through 12 battles, the 12th of which being the Battle of Mons Badonicus. That battle was sometime between 516 and 518. The Battle of the Hills of Camlann wasn't until 537-539.

Considering he was said to rule from the late 5th century to early 6th century, that's at least another 17 years before Mons Madonicus. Taking an age of 14 for pulling the Sword, and assuming the latest possible date of 499, to death at the earliest of 537, that'd be 38 + 14 = 52 years old. Minimum.

Yeah, I don't think Nasu really took much notice of the actual legend, let alone reality. I know my friend (who knows about the myths) refuses to accept Nasu's timings and uses the "correct" ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer

That remind me: If a Hero die of old age, would the grail resurrected him in the condition when he died - old and senile, or would it be him in his young and glorius day? In short, does the Grail always bring out the strongest form of a Servant?

The Grail brings back the most appropriate form. Which is usually the strongest, but it depends somewhat on the class. So, for example, if Rider were summoned as a Berserker instead she would probably be summoned as a Gorgon.

They would have memories from their entire life, though.

Rising Dragon · 2013-12-27, 13:01

I always figured that if anything, the Heroic Spirit that forms would resemble how the legend knows it, so they'd appear from a specific time, barring potential circumstances like the one CL just mentioned.

GDB · 2013-12-27, 14:04

That's what I figured too. It's also why I assume the 3rd war's Saber was Beowulf. Two forms, one young, one old, to represent the two main aspects of his legend.

Cherry_Lover · 2013-12-28, 10:10

Well, it's possible, but I doubt Beowulf is the only hero ever to have that property.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2013-12-28, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

So, for example, if Rider were summoned as a Berserker instead she would probably be summoned as a Gorgon.

It’s been a while since I played the game, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Medusa was already in her Gorgon’s form when she becomes a Rider in F/SN? I remember reading somewhere that Nasu just don’t want to make her into snake-haired monster like it’s supposed to, but still keeping her deadly eyes. Also, going by the myth, Medusa was never a rider when she’s still human, and both Pegasus and Belerophon exist after she died as a Gorgon.

Rising Dragon · 2013-12-28, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It’s been a while since I played the game, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Medusa was already in her Gorgon’s form when she becomes a Rider in F/SN? I remember reading somewhere that Nasu just don’t want to make her into snake-haired monster like it’s supposed to, but still keeping her deadly eyes. Also, going by the myth, Medusa was never a rider when she’s still human, and both Pegasus and Belerophon exist after she died as a Gorgon.

This is supposed to be her Gorgon form.

Spoiler for Image:

So I daresay her appearance in Fate/stay night isn't that of her Gorgon form, but just her regular form.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2013-12-28, 16:48

Ah, thanx for your answer RD ^^. The question has been hanging on my mind all this time, but forgot about it at some point. Her Gorgon form looks epic btw

. More so than the one in Clash of the Titans

.

Is that Perseus fighting her on that picture? If so, why did he use a lance?

Rising Dragon · 2013-12-28, 17:28

Yes, that's Perseus, and the lance he is using is the Harpe, one of the five Noble Phantasms he was gifted to kill Medusa with. Harpe has an ability that neutralizes immortality, causing wounds that can only be healed via the natural means of the world.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2013-12-28, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Yes, that's Perseus, and the lance he is using is the Harpe, one of the five Noble Phantasms he was gifted to kill Medusa with. Harpe has an ability that neutralizes immortality, causing wounds that can only be healed via the natural means of the world.

Now that’s interesting. I don’t remember Perseus given a lance in the actual myth. He received a shield from Athena, invisibility helmet from Hades, flying sandals from Hermes and a sword from Zeus to kill Gorgon-Medusa and that’s it. The fifth item (if you want to count it) is supposed to be Hesperides’s bag-thingy to safely contain Medusa’s head.

So the Harpe-lance must be Nasu's own thing he added in his version of the myth. Harpe itself is supposed to be a sword-sickle thingy known for being used by Kronos to castrate his dad, Uranus (that gotta hurt

).

Anyway, thanks for your nice info

.

Rising Dragon · 2013-12-28, 18:53

Well a staple of Nasu's works is that legends as we know it have some tiny (or sometimes glaring) inaccuracies. Harpe in Type-MOON has a sickle blade:

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...0/Harpe_v3.png

And yeah, those are the other Noble Phantasms Perseus was given in Rider's legend. The bag in particular acts as an extradimensional barrier of some sort when Perseus enveloped himself in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Type-Moon Wiki

Kibisis (キビシス, Kibishisu?) is a anti-sealing Noble Phantasm that distorts the concept of the world, placing the inside of the pouch on the outside and the outside of the pouch on the inside. It inflated and swallowed Perseus, creating a fold in space that placed the outside world into the inside of the bag, and Breaker Gorgon, which affects only what is inside, was reflected back, making Medusa look upon herself as if reflected in a mirror, allowing him to slay her with Harpe while she was immobilized.

Fireminer · 2013-12-28, 19:20

Question: Why haven't the Grail summoned any 18th-Century and latter Hero like Napoleon?

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2013-12-28, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well a staple of Nasu's works is that legends as we know it have some tiny (or sometimes glaring) inaccuracies. Harpe in Type-MOON has a sickle blade:

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...0/Harpe_v3.png

And yeah, those are the other Noble Phantasms Perseus was given in Rider's legend. The bag in particular acts as an extradimensional barrier of some sort when Perseus enveloped himself in it.

I see.

So Medusa saw her reflection not from Athena’s shiny shield, but from Hesperides’s bag. Hmm....is it just me, or Nasu’s version of Hesperides’s bag's ability sounds more like Doraemon’s pouch?

Fireminer · 2013-12-28, 20:06

Oh, sorry to forget about Jack the Ripper.

Say, there are many universes, each has their own version of Grail Wars, right? But how many Grails are there in total? Infinity, or a lot Lesser and one Grand that connect all worlds? For example, if in one timeline, Shirou travelled back in the past and prevent Lancelot from being hunted, would the Grail still summon Berserker Lancelot like the original world, or something else like Saber Lancelot?

Plus, would Zeltrect able to oversee the whole course of multiverses at once, or one at a time?

2013-12-27, 13:01	Link #4749
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	I always figured that if anything, the Heroic Spirit that forms would resemble how the legend knows it, so they'd appear from a specific time, barring potential circumstances like the one CL just mentioned. __________________

2013-12-28, 10:10	Link #4751
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Well, it's possible, but I doubt Beowulf is the only hero ever to have that property. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2013-12-28, 16:48	Link #4754
Obelisk ze Tormentor Black Steel Knight Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Indonesia	Ah, thanx for your answer RD ^^. The question has been hanging on my mind all this time, but forgot about it at some point. Her Gorgon form looks epic btw . More so than the one in Clash of the Titans . Is that Perseus fighting her on that picture? If so, why did he use a lance? __________________

2013-12-28, 17:28	Link #4755
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Yes, that's Perseus, and the lance he is using is the Harpe, one of the five Noble Phantasms he was gifted to kill Medusa with. Harpe has an ability that neutralizes immortality, causing wounds that can only be healed via the natural means of the world. __________________

2013-12-26, 06:28	Link #4741
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Makes sense, when servants run out of prana, they disappear. This much was true even for Gilgamesh. The difference with Gilgamesh is that he got a physical body when the grail went berserk, so he doesn't need anyone to be his anchor anymore.

2013-12-26, 18:50	Link #4742
Stanfoo Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013	What age was Saber when she drew the sword from the stone?

2013-12-26, 18:57	Link #4743
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	14, I believe. And if I calculated correctly, she died at around 56 years of age.

2013-12-26, 23:46	Link #4746
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	Been a long time since I calculated it, so it'd be tough to find. However, those 12 battles come from Nennius, which details Arthur through 12 battles, the 12th of which being the Battle of Mons Badonicus. That battle was sometime between 516 and 518. The Battle of the Hills of Camlann wasn't until 537-539. Considering he was said to rule from the late 5th century to early 6th century, that's at least another 17 years before Mons Madonicus. Taking an age of 14 for pulling the Sword, and assuming the latest possible date of 499, to death at the earliest of 537, that'd be 38 + 14 = 52 years old. Minimum.

2013-12-27, 00:06	Link #4747
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	That remind me: If a Hero die of old age, would the grail resurrected him in the condition when he died - old and senile, or would it be him in his young and glorius day? In short, does the Grail always bring out the strongest form of a Servant?

2013-12-27, 14:04	Link #4750
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	That's what I figured too. It's also why I assume the 3rd war's Saber was Beowulf. Two forms, one young, one old, to represent the two main aspects of his legend.

2013-12-28, 19:20	Link #4758
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Question: Why haven't the Grail summoned any 18th-Century and latter Hero like Napoleon?

2013-12-28, 20:06	Link #4760
Fireminer Lumine Passio Author Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hanoi, Vietnam Age: 18	Oh, sorry to forget about Jack the Ripper. Say, there are many universes, each has their own version of Grail Wars, right? But how many Grails are there in total? Infinity, or a lot Lesser and one Grand that connect all worlds? For example, if in one timeline, Shirou travelled back in the past and prevent Lancelot from being hunted, would the Grail still summon Berserker Lancelot like the original world, or something else like Saber Lancelot? Plus, would Zeltrect able to oversee the whole course of multiverses at once, or one at a time?