Character Discussion - Lelouch

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by NewtypeUSA2

VVJ you're not showing me anything new.
I've already read Grey Dawn's thread before and I've seen, and watched most of what showed up there.
It doesn't change my opinion.

The Perfect Stage Handbook, Rebels Illustrations Book, and Roman Album are covered in CCxLelouch pairing artwork. Usually she's laying on him or he on her or any number of other suggestive positions.
KallenxLelouch pairings in those books are regretably scarce.

I didn't say that Lelouch didn't love Kallen, and as much as I would have liked to see them together at the end of the show, they weren't.
He chose CC and that to me is obvious irregardless of all the fanbased chatter, theories and suppositions put forth.

Chose her by dying? Funny way of choosing something. He didn't see C.C. as a lover, plain and simple. Black and white statement, no two ways about it. On the other hand, his precious wish was for Kallen to have a life after he died. Seems to me he put a lot more attention to the latter than the former.

[NewtypeUSA2]

No she didn't VVJ. She challenged my integrity and that is something entirely different.

You on the other hand tried to give me some new information.
For that I thank you, but I've already read/seen that stuff and it still doesn't effect my opinion.

[egotist]

Originally Posted by yvj

You think Suzaku would allow his supporters to kill people who speak out against him? That goes against what he is. He is a symbol of justice. He has to play that role for the rest of his life and no other.

If he follows the line of justice to the letter. Than he's Captain America not The Punisher.

It is a lost case. When you are biased towards something, you get to disregard everything canon as well.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by yvj

Here's the difference:

Schniezel's plan you've got a gun to your head forever. Unless he finds a way to become immortal Schniezel will 100% choose a line of successors to carry out his plans forever, or have the whole thing run by some kind of robot with his personality. You know he would do this.

Life with a certified gun to your head.

Charles: No individuality left.

You think Suzaku would allow his supporters to kill people who speak out against him? That goes against what he is. He is a symbol of justice. He has to play that role for the rest of his life and no other.

If he follows the line of justice to the letter. Than he's Captain America not The Punisher.

thats the best thing about zero-r and suzaku's role as the He is a symbol of justice.
he doesnt NEED to oppress people himself
their hearts and minds are already his
he just tricked them into giving them to him

@egotist
why no answer to my question ?
why are people cheering zero's name in the finale ?

[yvj]

Originally Posted by NewtypeUSA2

I didn't say that Lelouch didn't love Kallen, and as much as I would have liked to see them together at the end of the show, they weren't.
He chose CC and that to me is obvious irregardless of all the fanbased chatter, theories and suppositions put forth.

Well I can't change how you perceive things. But no offense your opinion doesn't seem to based on anything substantial.(You knew this had to come out sooner or later.) Especially In light of the fact that the creators themselves went out of their way to say he never yearned to be C.C lover.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually i think YOU are missing the point
shnizel's plan was draconian
but it would have lasted LESS time
it would have killed more people, but end all war fare with in a few months
and then there would be no other action on his part other then nuking anyone who was kicking up a fuss

But who's to say that wouldn't happen? Was one of the things learned from inside the World of C, not to mention among the themes of the show itself, that people strive for some sort of happiness, ergo free will, which is the type of thing Schneizel's plan was set to suppress by way of FLEIJA nuke?

LELOUCH's plan on the other hand would last till the end of suzaku's LIFE
because THATS WHAT THE PLAN IS
its not about lelouch's DEATH and it doesnt END in his death
it STARTS with it
the whole point was to give suzaku the role of zero and have him lead the world down the path lelouch and he WANTED

step one
oppress world
step two
pretend to save world and become greatest hero and most influential person in history
step three
profit

That assumes Suzaku as Zero would actually be a tyrant, which he wouldn't be.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by azul120

That assumes Suzaku as Zero would actually be a tyrant, which he wouldn't be.

It also assumes he has power, which he doesn't. He's just the butler.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

But who's to say that wouldn't happen? Was one of the things learned from inside the World of C, not to mention among the themes of the show itself, that people strive for some sort of happiness, ergo free will, which is the type of thing Schneizel's plan was set to suppress by way of FLEIJA nuke?



That assumes Suzaku as Zero would actually be a tyrant, which he wouldn't be.

he doesnt HAVE to be
he's a villain with good publicity

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

thats the best thing about zero-r and suzaku's role as the He is a symbol of justice.
he doesnt NEED to oppress people himself
their hearts and minds are already his
he just tricked them into giving them to him

@egotist
why no answer to my question ?
why are people cheering zero's name in the finale ?

So your point is based on the fact that he became a symbol on the terms of deception and violence means him carrying out the role of justice personified for the rest of his life is therefore negated.

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@egotist
why no answer to my question ?
why are people cheering zero's name in the finale ?

Because, you use nothing canon in your latest posts, and whatever i would say, you would twist it. I am not the only one, that pointed out, you twist things or assume them, in an opposite light of what was presented within the series.
So yes, i like to debate with people, that do not use the fallacy-theory.

[NewtypeUSA2]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Chose her by dying? Funny way of choosing something. He didn't see C.C. as a lover, plain and simple. Black and white statement, no two ways about it. On the other hand, his precious wish was for Kallen to have a life after he died. Seems to me he put a lot more attention to the latter than the former.

I'm not so sure about that.
He also said he wanted to fulfill CC's wish which was to be loved.
For that he'd have to have lived or at least came back as an immortal.

Maybe I'm just peeved that he didn't end up with Kallen...I dunno.
I'm inclined to believe that he in fact died (and as Zongetsu suggests) may have come back (how is anybody's guess, Charles' Code, act of God, Sunrise, take your pick).
As I stated earlier here, Sunrise isn't going to give up on this show if it will make them more money.
A more concrete LelouchxKallen pairing in a future Code Geass would certainly be welcome.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by yvj

So you're point is based on the fact that he became a symbol on the terms of deception and violence means him carrying out the role of justice personified for the rest of his life is therefore negated.

my point is that he has no RIGHT to PLAY the role of justice personified
my point is that he got a LOT of power (more then anyone on earth) by lying to people
my point is that even if he DOES stray from his path, anyone who tried to call him out on it would end up being treated like a madman or an ass-hole simply by opposing him

@egotist
thats not an answer
you raised that point, please completle the sentence
the people are cheering zero's name because ....

@NewtypeUSA2
"knowing that lelouch truly cared about her and didnt blame her for what happened to him, C.C was able to find the strength to carry on with her immortal life"
thats pretty much what all the sources say about her final
lelouch made her see what its like to be loved (as a PERSON, not a lover)
and so she got her wish, and can move on

no where does anyone ever say, she and he are in the back of the curt rolling in the hay
she got SOME of her wish (she was LOVED, but not in THAT way)
just as lelouch,(better world for nunnaly, but he cant be there with her)
suzaku (he is kinda dead, but not really, and has the power to change the world, at cost of his happiness)
kallen (free japan, living with her mother, but without lelouch)
and nunnaly (a kinder gentler world, but without her brother)
all got PART of what they wanted
its called a bittesweet ending

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by NewtypeUSA2

I'm not so sure about that.
He also said he wanted to fulfill CC's wish which was to be loved.
For that he'd have to have lived or at least came back as an immortal.

You share this problem with zongetsu. You're too damn literal, and you lack the ability to differentiate between different kinds of love. Therefore, in this narrow view, Lelouch has to stay alive because obviously said love must never ever die and can only be one specific type of love.

In short, he doesn't have to be alive or love her romantically to have fulfilled that wish. He cared for her as a human being. Not as an object like Mao or a source of power like Marianne, but as a person.

Originally Posted by NewtypeUSA2

As I stated earlier here, Sunrise isn't going to give up on this show if it will make them more money.

"They could do it" is not a valid argument for Lelouch being alive.

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point is that he has no RIGHT to PLAY the role of justice personified
my point is that he got a LOT of power (more then anyone on earth) by lying to people
my point is that even if he DOES stray from his path, anyone who tried to call him out on it would end up being treated like a madman or an ass-hole simply by opposing him

Your point is fail. Lelouch in the end, after all the deception and lies, did become a symbol of justice (in a twisted way, i'll give it that) with no one knowing it, other than the old good gang of C.C, Suzaku, Nunally and Kallen. Why do you think Kallen says "That is Zero." Because, that was ultimately, an act of what was Zero reallly supposed to be.
And why would someone would want to rebel against an era of peace? That someone would be an ass, and would get his punishment, for wanting to distract the peace. Or is that, wrong again?

edit: i am not a 10yrs old thank you.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point is that he has no RIGHT to PLAY the role of justice personified
my point is that he got a LOT of power (more then anyone on earth) by lying to people
my point is that even if he DOES stray from his path, anyone who tried to call him out on it would end up being treated like a madman or an ass-hole simply by opposing him.

Fair enough.

Lots of arguments on ethics, lots of arguments of intentions, lots of arguments on if the ends justify the means. You do have a valid point in the way you see it. I'm not knocking that.

But from what the anime shows us, we can pretty much assume Suzaku and his atonement/punishment role will not abuse his powers.

[azul120]

Not to mention that, for instance, what about Cornelia and most of the others in the tiny resistance group at that moment? Did they have the right to play liberators?

[egotist]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that, for instance, what about Cornelia and most of the others in the tiny resistance group at that moment? Did they have the right to play liberators?

No. But blade does not hate them, he hates Lelouch so you kinda waste your time in a way. Point is, that with this lofic, you get nowhere. You have to examine the actions and underneath them.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by egotist

Your point is fail. Lelouch in the end, after all the deception and lies, did become a symbol of justice (in a twisted way, i'll give it that) with no one knowing it, other than the old good gang of C.C, Suzaku, Nunally and Kallen. Why do you think Kallen says "That is Zero." Because, that was ultimately, an act of what was Zero reallly supposed to be.
And why would someone would want to rebel against an era of peace? That someone would be an ass, and would get his punishment, for wanting to distract the peace. Or is that, wrong again?

edit: i am not a 10yrs old thank you.

i did not imply (or mean to imply) that you are
but you refuse to answer a question about a topic that you yourself raise

and the reason i keep pointing out my problems with the idea is simple
if you accept the idea that "its ok to murder oppress and deceive people, if someone does it because its for the best"
then you have to apply the same treatment to shnizel and charles plans as well

let me ask you this
suppose that someone learned suzaku's ID
and set out to oppose him because he deserves to die as much as the "evil emperor lelouch" did
would they be wrong in opposing him

edit: i dont HATE lelouch
he's my second fav character
but i hate the idea of "anything he does is ok, as long as HE's the one doing it"

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that, for instance, what about Cornelia and most of the others in the tiny resistance group at that moment? Did they have the right to play liberators?

were they WRONG in opposing lelouch ?

[morbosfist]

Wrong and right is in the eye of the beholder. All that really matters is if they can make good on the claim.

[SonOfHeaven]

Responding to the other posts from an few pages back.

Also what's the point of debating with somone when they disregard canon information just to satisfy their own POV? This is when one should stop an debate and leave it as it is. Haven't we seen this in the RT before and here as well.

About Lelouch being alive. One can believe it if they want to since at this point none can convince one another otherwise. However, Okouchi and staff members mentioned that he's dead in interviews(I guess promo pictures are to be taken seriously now lol. So because an pairing is popular means that they are canon? Guess you learn something new everyday). That is enough for me and no need for me to believe otherwise. We all saw him die and not get back up from that at the end.

The complete R2 guidebook explained things that made it more clearer. Especially from the 4 main characters(If I remember correctly it did mention that Lelouch did fulfill C.C's wish in some form). They explained Lelouch and Suzaku's reasons for ZR very clearly even myself was wrong in an few aspects. When they mentioned that Lelouch only saw C.C as an equal and not an mother or in an romantic sense. I thought that made alot of sense. I honestly thought it was an mother figure throughout the series personally.

Won't get into the Lelouch only saw Kallen as an ace pilot sense his actions obviously spoke otherwise(I could write an large post to disregard that easily and how Kallen became very important to Lelouch given his actions). Especially after watching the ending, looking at turn 22. Then reading her profile(particularly Lelouch's little wish line for Kallen) and of course her poem.

In my personal opinon. Lelouch dying and knowing he was coming back would be kind of messed up to me. Leaving Nunnally and Kallen like that making them believe he's gone even when they knew why he did that at the end. When what they truly wanted was to be with him. We know who was Lelouch most important person that being Nunnally and he left her as well. And she was his most loved person in the world.

Won't get into the Lelouch being evil or whatever you guys are debating about.