2013-04-02, 04:03 | Link #461 |
Boo, you whore
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Keep in mind though, the Nanoha disks released in the US were pretty much some of the worst Western anime releases ever made; the dub was done with newbie/unexperienced voice actors (which resulted in horrible inconsistency through out all the episodes,) the whole set was marked up at $100-110 (that's a lot for something that looks like "magical girl fluff", and I think a whole host of other problems (stemming from the fact that Geneon was going down like a sinking ship) basically caused Seven Arcs to stop dealing with the North American market altogether.
Also, "long delays between anime seasons with a movie or two in between" do happen (even if the series' popularity suffers for it.) Just look at Shakugan No Shana. Comparing Nanoha to a Shonen Jump production probably isn't a good idea...for one, two different audiences. Shonen Jump stuff don't depend on merchandise as nearly as much as late-night anime does; late-night anime depend on merchandising, and there's only going to be so many buyers with so much money. I don't even think Madoka Magica can pull a film and an ongoing series at once (Madoka Magica may be "mainstream" in the anime community, but outside of that, it's not mainstream at all.)
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2013-04-02, 04:46 | Link #462 | |||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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But you are right there is a higher return on movies if they are successful. Though that has to be balanced by the aforementioned costs first. |
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2013-04-02, 05:14 | Link #463 | |||||||||
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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There are other mains, they simply don't move passed their origin. Lest one of two things happen-- Nanoha and Fate really do get sidelined, or we have an over abundance of main characters. Fact of the matter is minor characters are the first to get cut when it comes to condensing a series down to half and turning it into a movie format. Quote:
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Last edited by Demi.; 2013-04-02 at 05:40. |
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2013-04-02, 06:44 | Link #464 |
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The Nanoha franchise has always been a strange one when it comes to how it approaches new content.
It has two narratives - Original and Reboot. For the original, you get one narrative, that starts as an anime, but switches to a manga (and fills in a lot of gaps with sound stages). But there's no adaptation here - Anime bits don't get a manga adaptation (to the best of my knowledge), and manga bits don't get anime adaptation. Nanoha fans are just expected to follow the continuing narrative from one medium (anime) to the next (manga) to the next (sound stages). For the reboot, it's all animated movie, so far. The movie does have manga adaptations of it, though, IIRC. Why the Nanoha franchise does things this way is anybody's guess. Sales aren't the reason though. StrikerS sold better than Nanoha A's which sold better than the original Nanoha. In other words, the anime just improves from one Nanoha show to the next when it comes to sales. And Dog Days is what happens when you take Nanoha-caliber action scenes but remove the slightest ounce of suspense from them, since contrary to what Shirou Emiya says, ... Spoiler for Dog Days spoiler:
Dog Days also ramps up the ecchi big-time compared to Nanoha. I'm pretty much with Kaijo on Dog Days, I suspect.
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2013-04-02, 08:36 | Link #466 | ||||||||||||||
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Repyling to multiple people, so trying to trim for size. Let me know if I skipped something you'd like me to address.
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So, I wouldn't discount Nanoha as being too dissimilar from those 4. Quote:
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While your latter statement holds some truth, it is also folly to think there is no relation, either. If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality. I was referring to the 6 hours of animation spent in 2 hours concept. Quote:
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Of course, your argument is really destroyed when you realize Nanoha doesn't get development. Only Fate does. Quote:
Yes, NanoFate and Fate scenes got more cuts, because there are more of them. It is a simply matter of quantity. If I cut equal time from everyone, then people like Yuuno would simply disappear totally from the movie... which may be your intent. I know it would be for some. Some characters have less time. And I will restate that the A's movie is about Hayate and the Wolks, and thus their development is paramount, and can't be cut as much if we want to establish them. Quote:
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2013-04-02, 09:17 | Link #467 | ||||||||
Ass connoisseur
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Location: Florida
Age: 37
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What I want is NanoFate development. I want that ever so subtle change at the end of the movie where Fate holds Nanohas hand for the very first time. And I want to feel like the events which eventually lead up to that scene were executed properly. Quote:
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Spoiler for I'll just leave this here...:
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2013-04-02, 09:38 | Link #468 | |||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Trimming down the less-vital parts of the debate as well. Give me a holler if you think I skipped something important.
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Same principle. Because it's seasonal it can afford to take breaks from airing another anime. Series that slap a "too be continued" on each episode have a lot less opening in this regard. Quote:
Now as for your question, depends. What are my deadlines? How much time in between episodes do I have? How big is the team I'm working with on either project? Are we outsourcing? How reliable is the company we're outsourcing to? There's a large list of variables that differ between producing an anime series and a movie. This is just scratching the surface with what limited knowledge I have. Take for example your last claim, "If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality." Yes, this is true. But here's the catch: You have now also doubled or tripled your workload. Animation is not the same as shooting a movie. It is not as if a bigger, better camera will make the same scene recorded in the same amount of time better. Animation in more frames means you have to create more frames. So say an anime is working with 12 frames of animation per second (this is very low quality, as you'll generally repeat the same frame twice to get the 24 fps, but it'll suit our "triple the fps" example), spread over six hours. That's 259.200 frames. Now you're going to make a movie. Only two hours, but you will animate all 30 frames per second! This means you will have to animate... 216.000 frames. Hmm. That's not nearly as much of a workload reduction, is it? Not to mention that in order to get a real quality increase (and this goes double for a movie) you will take far less animation shortcuts, which means that each frame requires more time than it would on a lower quality TV series. Visual quality will definitely improve, but so does your workload, and thereby your costs. Last edited by Keroko; 2013-04-02 at 10:19. |
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2013-04-02, 10:03 | Link #469 | ||||||||
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But how do you take away action scenes from Chrono to develop him as a character? He has exactly one: joining the gang in beating up on Cthulu, where he casts exactly one spell. So, you want us to cut his 10-15 seconds of action time, if those people who like Chrono, want to see him get some development? Can you really not see how this attitude is unfair? By the way, what happened to you charting the screentime each character has? If you don't in the next few days, I just might. Because... Quote:
In this scenario, Fate loses only 11% of her screentime, but Chrono's screen time doubles. So, hardly equal. Sure, we could argue for equalityof screentime, but the funny thing is, we aren't even arguing for that. We're like Oliver, asking for a bit more gruel to get enough nutrition, and all we hear in response is the Chef accusingly and angrily saying, "MORE!?" Quote:
I'm curious now, though... what do you think of shows that have a larger main cast that they focus on? I mean, Natsu and Lucy are technically the main characters of Fairy Tail, but Grey and Erza get development. Hell, even minor characters like Levy and MIrajane get development. Hell, even more minor characters like Evergreen gets development! But, according to you, a show can only have a couple of main characters, so obviously all those other shows are doing something wrong. Quote:
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2013-04-02, 10:13 | Link #470 |
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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You're looking for answers you cannot find.
Nanoha, as a franchise, has become very big that it's highly self-sustaining, with the cash flow and fanbase to support various more 'niche' storytelling mediums, in side-story mangas, sound stages, etc. Even those are clearly profitable, though we can't be sure how much so. There are a kind of value that is attached towards the 'mothership' of any franchise, which for Nanoha, are both the TV series and the movie, that you can't simply determine by constantly saturating the market with. If you aren't confident that your next 'mothership' piece would be a high quality piece that is on par, if not better than your previous, you risk losing a the luster of the franchise, that can easily trickle down to other parts of the brand. Even more so, if we want to make the assumption that Nanoha... in due time, will eventually move away from Nanoha & Fate, the undoubtedly most popular characters in the series. The stories, from StrikerS onwards has had a focus on building up the next generation of characters, be it the Strikers in S3/SSX, the Force Trio or the ViviD King. Unless Tsuzuki wants to backpedal, his direction is clear and the franchise cannot be sustained by Nanoha and Fate forever. Even the above is pure speculation. Quantifying business logic for things like Nanoha is hard.
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2013-04-02, 11:02 | Link #471 | |||||||
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In the states, there is a very definite number, the Nielson rating, that determines how much a show can charge advertisers for commercial time. SG: Universe was cancelled because the Nielson ratings dropped too low, and thus they couldn't get enough cash to sustain the show via advertising. I'd bet that something similar happens in Japan. Seven Arcs looked at the numbers, realized viewership and merch sales were dropping, and made the choice to reduce the series towards things that paid better. Quote:
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I'll agree to the general statement that costs go up with a movie, but that was never my argument. It was that a movie was more profitable because it gave bigger returns. But while you bring up other questions, we are left with one obvious logical point: Seven Arcs will do what is profitable. If an anime series was profitable, they'd do it. Especially given that Nanoha started as an anime series. They don't. Not 100%, no. But logic can narrow down reasons. And this is a forum, built for discussion, and a thread dedicated to discussing the franchise. So discuss we will. Quote:
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I repeat again: Seven Arcs is a business. If an anime series would be profitable, they'd do it. They aren't. I think trying to think upother reasons like "brand dilution" is really reaching, considering the brand is already spread in tons of directions, as you've noted. Not just sound stages, but manga, merch, movies, reboots, etc. Quote:
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2013-04-02, 11:20 | Link #472 |
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Ok, there's something that really needs to be pointed out here given this idea that no Nanoha TV series has been made since StrikerS since StrikerS was supposedly a commercial disappointment.
Here are pertinent sales figures from this handy-dandy sales figures thread right here on Anime Suki: Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha *4,312 (5) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA) 2005/01/26 *4,856 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 3) 2005/02/23 *5,701 Vol. 2 2005/03/24 *3,458 Vol. 3 2005/04/27 *3,432 Vol. 4 (Two episodes up to Vol.5) 2005/05/25 *4,113 Vol. 5 Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha A's 11,251 (6) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA) 2006/01/25 11,657 Vol. 1 (Three episodes) 2006/02/22 11,539 Vol. 2 (Two episodes up to Vol. 6) 2006/03/24 11,472 Vol. 3 2006/04/26 10,730 Vol. 4 2006/05/24 10,856 Vol. 5 2006/06/21 11,251 Vol. 6 Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS 22,720 (9) (Seven Arcs) 2007/07/25 23,688 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 8) 2007/08/22 23,511 Vol. 2 2007/09/26 22,937 Vol. 3 2007/10/24 22,234 Vol. 4 2007/11/21 21,622 Vol. 5 2007/12/26 22,248 Vol. 6 2008/01/23 21,799 Vol. 7 2008/02/27 22,217 Vol. 8 2008/03/26 23,062 Vol. 9 (Two episodes) The original Nanoha anime sold just over 4,000 DVDs per volume. That's roughly "breaking even" level. Nanoha A's sold over 11,000 DVDs per volume. That's rock solid success level (unless you're talking about an established titan like NGE or Haruhi). StrikerS sold over 22,000 DVDs per volume. That's MegaHit level, for just about any anime franchise. Whatever you think of StrikerS quality in general, there's no question it was a major commercial hit. Nanoha went from 4,000+ to 11,000+ to 22,000+ It's very impressive market share growth. I'm sure many successful entrepreneurs out there would be screaming "Why the hell aren't you making more?!" with a sales growth curve that's borderline exponential! So yeah, it's a bit of mystery why there haven't been another Nanoha TV series since StrikerS. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. It's one of the great mysteries of anime for me.
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2013-04-02, 11:28 | Link #474 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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The GoD comes along, with the materials quickly proving to be mighty popular, and out pops a sound stage dedicated to them and Innocent featuring them. Greenlighting an anime series is no quick decision, I think they're testing to see which of the many routs sells the most before (and if) they decide to make another series. |
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2013-04-02, 11:37 | Link #475 | |||
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Seriously, Nanya.... Quote:
If this is a "test", then the answer to this question is rather important, imo. Quote:
That's a rather extreme course change when your commercial success just kept improving and improving. Still, I thank you for your ideas.
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2013-04-02, 12:28 | Link #477 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Their course may have changed, but they never stopped producing more Nanoha. To make a very rough comparison, the star wars franchise had stopped making movies for 16 years before the Phantom Menace hit the screens, but the franchise itself had new books, games and comics coming out every year. |
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2013-04-02, 13:46 | Link #478 | |
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