2007-09-19, 01:19 | Link #461 | |
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In Gundam SEED, Athrun is in the exact same position that Shinn is. Why did Athrun join ZAFT? Because his mother, along with the colony of Junius 7, was destroyed by the Earth Alliance. Why did Shinn join ZAFT? Because his family was killed by fighting between Earth Alliance and Orb, and his nation was damaged as well. The reasons are practically identical. What happens as SEED progressed? We see the fighting escalate, and eventually Athrun and Kira reach the point where they try to kill each other. After this, they have a revelation about warfare in general and get a good look at the big picture. They change their ideas about fighting after that. What about Shinn? Like Athrun, he has a moment where he thinks that he killed Kira. Unlike Athrun, he didn't have an emotional attachment to Kira, but Athrun's remorse and explanation about how Kira never tried to kill anyone did seem to impact Shinn. Considering that Shinn's whole strategy against Kira was to exploit his unwillingness to kill, I'd imagine that Shinn felt like a bit of a villain (the viewers surely saw him as such). Shinn also has a moment where he believes that he killed Athrun and Meyrin. Shinn wasn't all that close to Athrun, or even to Meyrin, but he was close to Luna, and Meyrin was Luna's sister. This could have also triggered a revelation for Shinn, as Shinn lost his own sister to war, and now someone close to him lost her sister (or so they believed), at Shinn's own hands, due to war. These are some major opportunities for Shinn to exhibit a change of values, but he doesn't. It's important because after the events of SEED, the viewers have been hyped up about stopping the war. Orb's philosophy was presented as the prevailing one that would save the world. When Shinn trashed it, obviously that was a negative. The series never had him come around to doing what was really right, though. Shinn's idea of stopping war was to purely support the ideals of Chairman Dullindal. Unlike "Team Lacus" he never really seemed to put much thought into how war could really be stopped - he was just told by Rey to believe in and support the Chairman, and he did. He occasionally seemed to hesitate, but unfortunately we were never shown his thought process, so we can't know why or how deep it went. I felt that Shinn seemed to be sort of hollow at the end of the series, as though he were confused about whether what he was doing was the right thing or not. He never pulled out of it, though. The last bit we get to see of him in action is where he'd have killed or seriously injured Luna had Athrun not intervened. His character development was nonexistent, and he was given some terrible traits. I was surprised to find that anyone could be a fan of him, but I'm glad that we're all able to discuss it like this. I can see that you who support Shinn had very different takes on the series than I did.
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2007-09-19, 05:37 | Link #462 |
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I don't see it as just being power. More a mix of power and ideology (both major themes of the series). Athrun had plenty of power during the beginning of the series but didn't get that "respect" until after Dullindal had the talk with him, Shinn and the others in Ep 18, which helped to place them all in the same page for a brief moment in time. Shinn's confidence in Athrun appeared to be lost only after he showed hesitation against Kira and got destroyed.
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2007-09-19, 14:49 | Link #463 |
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Shin fans - I don't understand them. Shin was just stupid because he couldn't control his emotions, he just blamed people for not being able to protect his family- specialy his sister. He had so many chances to change himself, to see what's right but no - he just used his anger to kill people, nothing more.
To bad that most of the battle scenes were involving him and the fact that he defeated Freedom with that mobile suit - no comment. This is just my opinion, I won't be having a debate with anyone . |
2007-09-19, 15:28 | Link #464 | |||
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Either way, since Orb was presented with the "right" ideology in the last series, the entire idea of new characters opposing the old ones could have worked, and worked well, if a new ideology really brought into question the righteousness of Orb's world view. Back to Shinn for this last bit, though. Shinn is a career soldier, and the fact that he's in the military keeps him out of the cold. I don't think Shinn has as much leeway to question why he's fighting - If he stops, what's he going to do with the rest of his life? |
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2007-09-20, 16:40 | Link #466 | ||||
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As for Shinn, your points about the military are valid, but there's an exception. Shinn wasn't just part of the military - he was a pilot, and a red suit at that. This becomes pure speculation at this point, but I'd argue that he had to have some major drive not only to become a pilot, but to become so skilled that even as an upper-level pilot he had his own unique unit. Arguably this trumps any facts of whether he truly believed that he'd end up fighting or not - if he just wanted to join the military and live out his life, he could have just become a mechanic or any other maintenance worker. The mechanics of the Minerva even seemed to make up the majority of his friends. Quote:
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2007-09-20, 17:41 | Link #467 | |||||
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2007-09-20, 23:06 | Link #468 | |
Tsubasa No Kami
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They all respected Athrun even before he took charge of the Lohengrin gate destruction thingy. They were all gushing "Athrun is the hero of the last war" yadda yadda yadda. It was only Shinn who came to respect him I think in that particular episode - remember that he was also suspicious of Athrun being another new superior officer and all that. And we all know how Shinn reacts to authority.
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2007-09-21, 05:26 | Link #469 | |
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2007-09-21, 08:42 | Link #470 | |||||||
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2007-09-21, 14:17 | Link #471 | |||
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2007-09-21, 15:07 | Link #472 | ||
Love Yourself
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My first point of disagreement is over what we'd consider a good soldier to be. Is it someone who can simply follow orders? Is it someone who is skilled at their position? Is it someone who fights for the ideals, rather than their superiors? Depending on which definition you choose, or which you mix and match, Athrun or Shinn emerge as the superior soldier. Athrun falls into the type of soldier who has his eye more on the big picture than on obeying orders from his superiors. Seemingly from the very beginning of Destiny, Athrun is shown to be troubled by what he sees unfolding: fake Lacus; the development of more weapons; an agenda that somehow makes him clash with Kira once more; the call for the destruction of Logos (followed by the development of even more weapons), and so on. He didn't leave ZAFT for no reason in Destiny, either. Meer warned him of the conversation between Rey and Dullindal, and Athrun happened to second-guess what they were going to do. Leaving ZAFT was, in a way, a matter of survival for him. In Gundam SEED, he did leave ZAFT of his own decision, but not without a lot of thought and anguish. Contrast that with Shinn's decisions. Arguably, Shinn worked on a much smaller scale, performing actions that weren't as massive as changing sides. Shinn always did his actions relatively quickly, as well. Disobeying Athrun's orders was one thing, but the returning of Stellar was arguably the biggest defiance that Shinn performed. He didn't take any real deliberation over it. I believe we see him looking upset, and then a few scenes later, he's going ninja on the nurse and busting Stellar out of there. He never truly put thought into it and gave thought to ZAFT's protocols or actions, he just acted out of emotion for Stellar and that was it. Toward the end of the series there does seem to be some hope for Shinn, as he answers less readily to Dullindal and Rey and does seem to be a bit confused. The series never really allowed him to draw his own conclusions, though. Quote:
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2007-09-21, 16:01 | Link #473 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
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Durandall, I don't think was a bad guy because of his ideology. Ideologies are never wrong. Ever. They're opinions, no more and no less, and a "wrong" ideology implemented in a good way, would probably be much better than a "right" ideology implemented in a bad way.
Lacus didn't decide to strike down Durandall because of his ideology, and Kira I don't think ever really opposed Durandall directly for his ideology. Hell, even between ep 23~28, the part where Kira is talking to Murrue when she gives him that big sister pat on the head, he says that maybe it was all just some mistake and that there really was a rogue group from the PLANT trying to kill Lacus. Heck, as for the Destiny Plan placing people in work that they would be good at by the code of their genes, do you know how good of a plan that actually would be?! If it would work perfectly, it'd mean the end of unemployment and perhaps even the end of all poverty. Interestingly enough, both of my grandfathers were engineers, and in turn, my major is also of an engineering discipline. My parents deviated from these engineering genes, and we're not millionaires. I think I have a good future ahead of me since essentially I'm returning *to* the disciplines which my genes have imparted upon me. On an aside, I also heard upon campus that an African American's brain was 5 cm less in circumference than a caucasian's, whose brains were 1 cm less in circumference than that of asians. It seems to be a reasonable explanation as to why there are so many african-americans playing sports (take note of football, basketball, and boxing), and finding employment in manual labor, and makes a joke I once heard less surprising. "Demongod, you're 92nd in class rank," says my counselor (in high school) "Man, I'm 92nd...who's ahead of me?!" "Lots and lots of asians," responds a classmate. End aside. Frankly, if there was some sort of politiconomical plan that took note of this, was able to map it, and to find opportunity for everyone, what's *not* to like about that? I highly doubt that it would absolutely destroy freedom of choice as Lacus thought. What *would* take away freedom of choice, is how Durandall chose to implement this plan. He wanted everyone to comply to his rules, and those that didn't would no longer exist. Come on, the guy tried to kill you, and on top of that, he's trying to zap your country with a giant laser. You call *that* a good idea? Frankly, I think it would have made for a much *better* plot if instead of sending assassins after Lacus that Durandall went and assassinated the *Seirans*, and instead figuratively picked up the little doll that was Cagalli, and put her in power with his own blessing. I also wonder why he would choose to assassinate Lacus, when she was just living on an island taking care of orphans. And in the end, ironically enough, Lacus was *supportive* of Mia taking over her songstress role, if it made Mia happy. It probably would have made life a lot easier for Lacus had Mia lived, and had Mia run into trouble of not being able to write original songs, or would have had two children with Athrun (okay, let's not go there...I'm trying to make Britney Spears look stupid here, in case you didn't notice ), Lacus would have stepped in for a little bit and fixed things up, so long as Mia put in the legwork, which Mia had the unlimited energy to do. And because of Durandall's fetish with removing Lacus, Mia in the end bit it, as did Durandall. What *would* have been interesting, though, was if Durandall, rather than trying to wipe Lacus out, simply gave her no reason to come after him with her space fleet and custom-built shiny-suits for her two knights. In that case, the Minerva *would* have been the second archangel, and Destiny and Legend the second coming of Freedom and Justice. No...Dully's plan wasn't bad...Dully's implementation was just horrible. Then again, I really think that the producers didn't give Dully's character enough thought...why would he send a few mobile suits to take out Lacus when he knew the Freedom was hiding there, when the Seirans would have been a far easier target?
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2007-09-21, 16:40 | Link #474 | ||
Magic Pilot
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I think I'm judging "better soldier" in terms of following orders quickly. Athrun is preferable in other jobs, and I think most of us would like to be more easily compared to Athrun as a person rather than Shinn (Athrun's ability to think for himself is something I think we'd all, myself included, like to think we can do). Athrun, is, in the end, a person who can follow what he ultimately believes in, no matter what outside interference comes. This is not the formula for "a good soldier." I have difficulty picturing someone who hesitates whenever they need to pull a trigger as being the type a commander would want to have in their unit... Granted, Athrun doesn't hesitate THAT much, but I think most people in charge would prefer to not worry about their subordinates constantly worrying if they made the right choice. Of course, Athrun was in a more commanding role in SEED Destiny, so we didn't get to see that, and in SEED, until a little before the end of his time in ZAFT, he tended to just follow orders.
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1. This is a way to end poverty. Everyone will be employed, and it's a way to make sure almost everyone is happy. Yes, there will probably be some people would still be depressed and have problems with life, but that's a natural part of being human and can't be helped. As a matter of fact, therapists will have been perfectly selected for their jobs, so they'll be the best the world has ever seen, if all goes properly. War won't ever have to happen again, it'd become a thing of the past, since, with everyone working under one system, there won't be any enemy anymore. It'll all fit, just like pieces of a puzzle. 2. The destiny plan undermines the power of human determination. Yes, perhaps one person's genes are better suited to one task than another, yes, perhaps the person has all the prerequisites in his DNA, but that doesn't mean that they're going to want to work in the job their assigned. People dream, people have aspirations, and those who work hard have always been able to overcome their difficulties. Setting up a system where, no matter how hard a person works, they still can't change where they are in life is simply inhumane. I tried to make those sound about even. The truth of the matter is that I swing back and forth in my opinion on this, but in the end, I know I'd hate to be trapped in one job against my will, and I know that simply realizing I was trapped would be enough to make me want to do somethin' else. From a purely impersonal standpoint, yes, the destiny plan looks like it could work. So does communism, and democracy could, just like the destiny plan, end poverty "if it all works right." It's designed by humans. Nothing designed by humans works to it's full potential, whether it runs out of batteries, malfunctions, runs slow, breaks, or doesn't work at all. Quote:
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2007-09-21, 16:55 | Link #475 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
Join Date: Dec 2005
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About the destiny plan point 2:
I think that's a matter of extents. If by your genes I could tell you that you'd be better in a quantitative field and it is strongly suggested for you to go into one, you still have a huge spectrum of options. We don't know how precise the DP was, but to be able to guide people into a potentially suitable field for a slight concession in overall choice I think may work well. As for Dully not knowing about the Freedom, how could he not know about the Freedom despite knowing about Lacus, and probably Kira? I mean honestly, would the thing just go poof and disappear? He certainly knew who Kira Yamato was ala Ulti Coordy, and he certainly knew about Lacus. It didn't make sense that he just conveniently forgot about Freedom.
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2007-09-21, 17:25 | Link #476 | ||||
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Let me bring up an interesting series of studies that were performed on identical twins. Twins are people with an identical genetic make up. Have you ever met some? They look alike, but their personalities are not the same. Studies performed on various twins verified that their DNA was the exact same, and yet their genetic expression differed. We have many genes, but not all of those genes are active at once - they couldn't be, or else we'd be in major trouble. The genes only become active under certain conditions and times. A large part of this is due to environmental stimulus. In order to fully clone someone, you would need not only to give them the same genetic makeup, but subject them to the exact same experiences and conditions that the original went through. If you clone a person, you'll be able to get the majority of physical features to be the same, sure. But your physical build is only part of being matched to a job - depending on the job, it doesn't even have anything to do with it. What matters to a job is your interest in it. I'd propose that the reason why your family has a line of engineers is because the parents laid the foundation for a further interest in engineering, either by inspiring their children about engineering or simply passing on a mentality that is conducive to engineering. There's also the fact that in many cultures, it is expected that the children will take on the same job type as their parents, but I don't know whether your lineage is part of such a culture. If people could be matched to jobs that they were good at, then it'd simply make things more productive. It wouldn't end unemployment, because people not being able to find what they're suitable for is only part of unemployment. A larger part is simply the jobs not being there, or people being denied opportunities. In order for the Destiny plan to be feasible, not only would the population need to be controlled, but developments would need to be controlled. For example, what if someone is matched perfectly to be a car mechanic, and then robots are developed that could take over that job? The person would be unemployed, or forced into a job that they weren't "destined" for. What you're proposing is an end to progress and development in order for people to exist happily - or what we'd presume is happily. Speaking of progress, things like scientific advancement, or advancement on any front, aren't formed by people who accept the status quo. My opinion is that a society that accepted something like the Destiny plan would not see any advancement. How could it? People would simply be doing what they were told; sheep who were happy to be herded. How can anyone think outside of the box, and how could anyone suggest something that could shake such a "perfect" system up? There are actually socieities that exist and have existed where something similar took place - people did what they were ordered to do, and didn't question it. Many of those societies were destroyed or are seen as undeveloped by our current standards. Read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel if you're interested in the ideas about why certain societies dominated over others. Either way, the point that I want to drive here is that genes aren't everything. The debate over "nature vs. nurture" will always continue, but the twin studies that I mentioned above should prove that it's really a combination of both that make the individual. Genetics is still a relatively young science, and I think that people jumped to conclusions over its implications. Quote:
When a child is born, their brain is full of activity. It's not just cellular division, but massive linking between the cells. As a person ages, fewer connections are formed and connections are severed. Some say that it's nature's way of making a person more specialized - an energy-saving mechanism so that they only keep what's really necessary. This explains why often, children have an easier time picking things up than adults, and why we lose skills if we don't use them. It's not just a matter of being closed-minded, but about mental flexibility (there is an official term for this, but I can't recall it). This is science, there's no arguing with it. If you want to really explain your observations, I'd say that it has to do with psychology and culture. In America, at least, many minority groups are coming from impoverished backgrounds, and it does impact them. They may place less value on education, or they may simply feel that the system is against them and that whatever they do is helpless. For certain, there's likely a level of mistrust against the greater society, and it would be well warranted. It has nothing to do with core intelligence, but motivation, inspiration, and all of those factors. You (jokingly) mentioned your class rank, and stated that Asians were all ahead of you. This is also cultural. In the Asian culture, bringing honor and prestige to the family is of the utmost importance. As Asian families become Americanized we don't see it as strictly, but the core values are often still there. Caucasians, on the other hand, are much more individualistic. It impacts your drive to study and do well - it even impacts what your definitions of doing well and success are. But even attributing it to psychology and culture is a bit of a simplification. The point in bringing those up, however, is to show that genetics are not the sole determining factor - arguably they're a very small one. Quote:
It's an interesting read either way, as it seems relatively horrific. I'd imagine that the only people who would like such a society are those who do not want to be responsible for themselves and do not like uncertainty in life. Like the Destiny Plan, such a setting as in Brave New World would eliminate those. While it doesn't explicitely take away freedoms in a police state fashion, it takes away freedom of people's development. If you live in a society where everything is taken care of, and you only follow orders, how free will you feel to step out of line, to do something different and revolutionary? Not very. And in some parts of the world, and to some cultures, this is perfectly acceptable. I come from a very individualistic, rather than a collective culture, so my view is that such a thing would be terrible. The potential for corruption is also seemingly very high. Society has suddenly become accustomed to being given orders. People are afraid of not conforming to the standards. But certainly, someone at the top of the society must be free from it? If so, who's to say that they wouldn't abuse it for their own personal gain? Or, if the entire society came to truly believe in their Destiny society, how likely is it that they'd change it? The society would be stuck, paralyzed out of fear of ruining Destiny. Limited to no progress. Remember, when considering what such an implementation would be like, think about it in terms of how it would impact people's deeper psychologies and the culture. If tomorrow everyone were placed into a new position that they were well-suited for, it'd be wonderful. We all retain the memories of individually fighting for our own betterment, and trying to advance ourselves. What happens in a society where people do what they are told, and never aspire to anything greater?
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2007-09-21, 18:43 | Link #477 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
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Good points. As for me, my father is a real estate agent (one of the most disastrous occupations as of the moment), and my mother is a piano teacher. My grandparents were engineers. And I do value individualism more than collectivism, as collectivism has shown itself not to work as it directly clashes with intrinsic human natures.
I am thinking that under the DP, those that were genetically meant to be scientists would be the ones thinking out of the box. While I never read brave new world, I did read 1984. I think it's the same idea...although once again, if the DP assigns only one job to a person rather than a multitude, yes, we may have a problem.
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2007-09-21, 19:31 | Link #478 | ||||||||||
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1. Following orders. 2. Seperating personal feelings from the uniform. 3. Insubordination. By any measure, Shinn scores extremely poorly on all of these factors. In comparison, Athrun could have acted more professionally, but his overall performance was still fairly decent. While he left ZAFT twice, they were both for reasons that verged towards illegal orders, so there's quite a bit of leeway there. Also, note that a soldier has absolutely no choice in whose orders he decides to obey. Quote:
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On the other hand, Durandal is a fairly decent person in many ways. However, his problem is that his belief in his ideology meant that he felt justified in doing very ruthless things. Quote:
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2007-09-21, 22:12 | Link #479 | |||||
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And then there's the matter of "insubordination" and "following orders." Yeah, Shinn's more insubordinate, but he follows orders extremely well. At this point, I'm defining "insubordination" as "disrespecting superior officers." I would say, however, that Shinn is very adept at handling the majority of his orders. I should also note that I'm judging "following orders" in terms of the severity of the order. When Athrun left the first time, yes, it was after a great deal of thought, but the orders he'd received were perfectly legal. A weapon with a dangerous component in it had fallen into what may be enemy hands. Finding it or destroying it is a perfectly logical, and perfectly legal, action for the military to take. Athrun then goes ahead and changes sides and fights against ZAFT. Yes, that turns out to be the morally right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that he refused to follow lawful orders and went as far as to fight against the military he had previously been in. I'm not gonna say that's the wrong thing, but if you were in charge of the military (and, for the record, believed yourself to be doing the right thing), a soldier who does that is a worse soldier than one who's mouthy, especially if the mouthy soldier happens to complete his missions remarkably effectively. And then in SEED Destiny, we don't know what Dullindal was going to do to him, but if a person in charge has reason to believe that one of their subordinates intensely disagrees with what he's being asked to do and probably won't do their job well, I think most people would want that subordinate off the job. Now, I don't remember all of this episode, and if we had any hint that Athrun was going to be killed or have anything else illegal done to him, it'd be a different story. No, let me rephrase that: If Athrun had had any hint that something illegal may happen to him, then it'd be a different story. If I recall, I don't think he did, other than the military police coming for him. I'd say Shinn's most severe breach of orders came when he returned Stellar to the Earth Alliance. What ZAFT was doing at that point was, unless there are special, international rules for treating Extendeds, quite illegal. They're running tests on a prisoner of war, and they're going to deface the dead body in order to learn more. This is a human rights issue, I think, and while the Earth Alliance is CERTAINLY not following a good human rights ideal in even creating the Extended, ZAFT would be at fault for not treating them humanely. Shinn returned Stellar to an unlawful military to save her life from another unlawful (I assume) military. In this instance, Shinn's collective transgressions would be less severe before an unbiased audience, or so I believe. Quote:
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2007-09-21, 23:39 | Link #480 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I think that classifying Athrun as a pure soldier is sort of not in the correct ballpark. Frankly, the second time around, I think Athrun joined ZAFT not to follow ZAFT orders, but to get another gundam, more or less. He joined up so he could do something for Cagalli. In other words, he's more of a knight than a soldier.
As for the military police coming after him, when he saw he was being spied on, I think he added two and two. Either way, there was nothing good that was going to happen to him, so he bailed. And as for Shinn completing his missions with efficiency, had Kira been not such a nice guy, Shinn would have been dead in episode 23, perhaps 28, 34, and certainly 43 when Kira decided not to torso-beam him right in the cockpit. For all his "effectiveness", it should be noted that he got as far as he did since Kira was just such a nice guy.
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