[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

You have to take into account that all the characterization of Battler as incompetent and not-totally-awesome was BEFORE he learned all the truth, ascended to a higher plane of existence and understanding, and got super badass golden wizard powers.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You have to take into account that all the characterization of Battler as incompetent and not-totally-awesome was BEFORE he learned all the truth, ascended to a higher plane of existence and understanding, and got super badass golden wizard powers.

Episode 5 called, it says Kinzo would like to disagree with you on the "not-totally-awesome before learning all the truth" unfounded accusation.

[AuraTwilight]

Oh, I'm not saying Battler wasn't awesome, I think he is; I'm just saying that any characterization that paints him in a stupid or lamer light doesn't apply to the timeframe of the "Genius Battler" theory, and is thus irrelevant.

[Jaden]

I don't buy that he suddenly became super awesome after remembering some detail in his past. He's still ol' good incompetent Battler, magic can only do what one is capable of, but a miracle can happen even with poor chances. Can't discredit the possibility, but I don't buy it because of my personal feelings and interpretation. Chances are maybe 30/70 for genius/baka Battler?

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I don't buy that he suddenly became super awesome after remembering some detail in his past. He's still ol' good incompetent Battler, magic can only do what one is capable of, but a miracle can happen even with poor chances.

For the most part, this. I don't prescribe to anything with Genius and Battler in the title. Battler's IQ didn't just shoot past Maria's because he learned the truth. In other words, learning one piece of information doesn't effect your overall competence.

[AuraTwilight]

You guys are just making the assumption that he learned one piece of information. He knows the WHOLE truth, complete with him seeing like a hundred flashes of different worlds at once and whatnot.

That and "he is now on a higher plane of understanding" is literally right there in his TIPS.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Except it's clearly proven by the end of ep6 that Battler was somehow successful.

So basically you're arguing he succeeded by accident?

Its a pretty big gambit and borderlines into a xanatos roulette. You have to anticipate her not wanting to use the proclamation, wanting the tape back, fixing a damn lock with duck tape, reacting the way she did with the corpses, hoping that new Beatrice becomes like old Beatrice, having the stakes act out on their own without an order.

Too much variables, you could say Battler's as crazy as he's grand father and betting a 1/quadrillion chance but thats a little too much.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You guys are just making the assumption that he learned one piece of information. He knows the WHOLE truth, complete with him seeing like a hundred flashes of different worlds at once and whatnot.

That and "he is now on a higher plane of understanding" is literally right there in his TIPS.

Can he escape an absolute truth that says thats he's incompetent though? Or that his sin gets the people in Rokkenjima killed?

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

For the most part, this. I don't prescribe to anything with Genius and Battler in the title. Battler's IQ didn't just shoot past Maria's because he learned the truth. In other words, learning one piece of information doesn't effect your overall competence.

Speaking of Maria in EP6, her last words to Erika where also foreshadowing something that never happened (at least so far). It could have almost been interpreted as a threat, not only that but one thats certain to happen if we believe that promises have this much weight in this series.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its a pretty big gambit and borderlines into a xanatos roulette. You have to anticipate her not wanting to use the proclamation, wanting the tape back, fixing a damn lock with duck tape, reacting the way she did with the corpses, hoping that new Beatrice becomes like old Beatrice, having the stakes act out on their own without an order.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be nearly so specific. Battler's plan could've been as vague as "Get into a logic error and get Beatrice to save me", and his actions (taking out anyone who'd disagree with Erika, giving Erika retroactive moves, refusing to back down from Erika's challenges) could've certainly led to that.

[C-chan]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Can he escape an absolute truth that says thats he's incompetent though? Or that his sin gets the people in Rokkenjima killed?

That red truth is more of a subjective perspective.

As for the other truth, I think it's absolute. In EP5 and mentioned by Ange in EP6, he was asking forgiveness from Beatrice. That's something I don't know, but it somehow relates to his past.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The thing is, it doesn't have to be nearly so specific. Battler's plan could've been as vague as "Get into a logic error and get Beatrice to save me", and his actions (taking out anyone who'd disagree with Erika, giving Erika retroactive moves, refusing to back down from Erika's challenges) could've certainly led to that.

Battler didn't even know the existence of logic errors until after finishing the structure of his game. He only learns this after Genji/Ronove tells him right after wrapping it up. This is too much 11th dimensional chest, he could have thought of this and started to alter the game in response, wanting to get into a logic error. But that would still imply that he altered his game anyways.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The thing is, it doesn't have to be nearly so specific. Battler's plan could've been as vague as "Get into a logic error and get Beatrice to save me", and his actions (taking out anyone who'd disagree with Erika, giving Erika retroactive moves, refusing to back down from Erika's challenges) could've certainly led to that.

There's also the possibility that he had Lambda feeding him information about Bern's plans and helping to manipulate her. Or that Battler's higher-order self simply wrote the story so that Moetrice would save his lower-order self (in other words, he orchestrated a "certain miracle").

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Battler didn't even know the existence of logic errors until after finishing the structure of his game. He only learns this after Genji/Ronove tells him right after wrapping it up. This is too much 11th dimensional chest, he could have thought of this and started to alter the game in response, wanting to get into a logic error. But that would still imply that he altered his game anyways.

Remember that Battler's acting on a higher level here. The scene where he finished the game and talked to Genji about it may actually be a deliberate part of his game narrative, rather than what actually happened. Looking at it that way also resolves some inconsistencies in the timing of Moetrice's introduction, if I remember correctly.

[Renall]

The issue is basically this: Either Battler was a "genius" (which just means he knew, expected, or intended the Logic Error or something like it to happen), or he wasn't (which means he was genuinely not expecting it).

Factually, we know two things about Battler's game:

• It was supposedly made to show he "truly understands" Beatrice's game.
• Based on the ending, it was successful at that somehow.

Logically, then, only the following outcomes are possible:

• Battler's game shows a true understanding because of whatever he did in ep6.
• Battler's game shows a true understanding in spite of whatever he did in ep6.

Essentially, #1 is Genius Battler, #2 is any other explanation. Either Battler designed the game essentially as it played out (that is, he wasn't necessarily specifically expecting that Logic Error, but he was playing to somehow put himself in danger) and succeeded for that reason, or he designed his game, genuinely blundered, and somehow succeeded anyway (presumably mostly through Beatrice's own doing, not his).

It simply does not make any sense to me that Battler could be considered to "truly understand" Beatrice if he accidentally satisfied her. ANGE says that she thinks the witch was satisfied with the conclusion of the story. But is she likewise satisfied with how the story got to that conclusion? Surely it makes a difference not just that Battler arrived at the happy meta-world ending, but how he did so? Why would Beatrice be satisfied with "I was in trouble, so you came and bailed me out" (notwithstanding the argument that this was Beatrice's intention in her game, but if so that only makes Genius Battler more likely rather than less).

There's basically no way for Battler to both demonstrate that he fully understands Beatrice's game and be genuinely surprised by anything that happened to him in ep6. If he knew ahead of time, the resolution makes sense. If he didn't know, he can't be said to have actually fulfilled the conditions set forth to him because he would've been permanently trapped without the stroke of luck that Beatrice would help him.

So unless Beatrice's game was "do whatever and hope it works, and if it doesn't, hope somebody comes along to fix it," Battler simply cannot have demonstrated satisfactory resolution without knowing at least basically what he was doing. You can argue it's implausible that he planned out every step of the way and manipulated every act of Bern and Erika, but if you're trying to argue that he was completely unaware that he might be placing himself in harm's way, you're arguing the less probable explanation.

Also, I'm not sure I grasp this "Battler is stupid" trend people have. Battler is extremely intelligent. He's just incompetent because of his tendency to jump to conclusions and his stubborn nature. There's a big difference, and the latter two things supposedly were what he was getting over at the end of ep5.

[winter 923]

Battler in EP6 sounds for me more like Kinzo. Risking everything for a revival of Beatrice. That's how Kinzo's Magic works. If he did found out about Beatrices secret move at the end of EP5, risking everything on her to remember it doesn't sound to farfetched for a father.


About the 19years ago. (this is only to EP6 knowlage)
19 years ago a baby was thrown off a cliff. This cannot be connected to the Asumu-Kyrie babyswap if they gave birth on the same day or Kyrie would know at the very beginning that Battler is 19 years old and not 18.

Natsuhi<-Asumu<-Kyrie<- lie about miscariage.
This makes for me the most sense besides maybe a child from Beatrice, i can't see Kinzo giving the future head just a random baby without any bound to the family. But for it to work there should be a timedifference and a tinkering with the birthdates.

I also recall that Beatrice said something like that she 'will give Battler a birthday present beforehand since she can't be around at his birthday' and he was perplex because his birthday was already. The only problem is i don't recall where i did read this. Might have been a fanfic so don't give it too much credit.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

has he ever even met Maria, if the cousins keep getting pushed to a guestroom before Kinzo even shows up?

Actually in EP1 Battler did notice that it was unusual "Normaly, we would have had to follow them and greet everyone together, but if that had been the case, Dad would just have said 'You guys come!' and finished it."

[Leafsnail]

Well... BATTLER in ep6 clearly seems to represent Kinzo (the chick thing is extremely obvious). Perhaps the whole logic error thing represents something that happened to Beatrice in the real world... that she ended up saving Battler?

[Thunder Book]

Wait... are you saying that Battler survives to the end in most games because someone keeps saving him without his knowledge?

[Renall]

That would certainly be interesting, wouldn't it? He's apparently "off limits" for the killings, or else he's being protected. And if you wanted to be sure Battler made it out alive, just hoping he'd do it is never going to work.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You guys are just making the assumption that he learned one piece of information. He knows the WHOLE truth, complete with him seeing like a hundred flashes of different worlds at once and whatnot.

That and "he is now on a higher plane of understanding" is literally right there in his TIPS.

He doesn't understand everything pertaining to everything in the universe, he learned the truth to this mystery. Matter of fact, it seems as if most of the information was there in the first place. He even realized that he should have realized the truth before he did.
You seem to have misinterpreted what I stated. If I did not know 2+2=4 and I was incompetent, suddenly learning that 2+2=4 does not necessarily make me competent. Sure, you can say it would make me competent when it comes to basic math but in the overall scheme of things it would not effect my competence in say Philosophy or a different subject.

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

Wait... are you saying that Battler survives to the end in most games because someone keeps saving him without his knowledge?

That could be what is happening, or the murderer(s) do not want to kill Battler.

[AuraTwilight]

Its a pretty big gambit and borderlines into a xanatos roulette. You have to anticipate her not wanting to use the proclamation, wanting the tape back, fixing a damn lock with duck tape, reacting the way she did with the corpses, hoping that new Beatrice becomes like old Beatrice, having the stakes act out on their own without an order.

Too much variables, you could say Battler's as crazy as he's grand father and betting a 1/quadrillion chance but thats a little too much.

Betting on a miracle is EXACTLY THE POINT. Kinzo, Beatrice, Kanon, Shannon, hell, even Bernkastel all make things about betting on miracles.

Besides, Battler wrote the fucking story.

Can he escape an absolute truth that says thats he's incompetent though? Or that his sin gets the people in Rokkenjima killed?

The second statement has nothing to do with the topic on hand, so I'll ignore it: Incompetence is not an immutable, persevering trait. People can be incompetent in different areas and forms, and more over, incompetence is situational. Being incompetent one moment does not make him incompetent for all time. When he was stated to be incompetent, he was still learning the rules to Beatrice's game, and had no idea what the fuck he was doing because he was trying to ratify two impossible goals. Battler has changed since then. It's called Character Development.

Battler didn't even know the existence of logic errors until after finishing the structure of his game. He only learns this after Genji/Ronove tells him right after wrapping it up. This is too much 11th dimensional chest, he could have thought of this and started to alter the game in response, wanting to get into a logic error. But that would still imply that he altered his game anyways.

So what? Everyone says that Gamemasters change their games in mid-play all the time so long as it doesn't contradict past information. Even Beatrice herself kept changing her games to match Battler's moves, and she only just barely dodged a Logic Error multiple times.

@Battler being protected/saved by Beatrice in Rokkenjima Prime: I've entertained the notion myself for a while; If we entertain the idea that Battler is still alive and managed to escape the island, perhaps it was Beatrice who did so? "Get on this AWESOME SUB and get out of here. I'll stay behind and distract the killer...." Then Beatrice sets off the bomb, taking herself out with the killer, to avenge all the other people he killed...

Infact, I'm proclaiming this as personal canon until it's contradicted.

He doesn't understand everything pertaining to everything in the universe, he learned the truth to this mystery. Matter of fact, it seems as if most of the information was there in the first place. He even realized that he should have realized the truth before he did.
You seem to have misinterpreted what I stated. If I did not know 2+2=4 and I was incompetent, suddenly learning that 2+2=4 does not necessarily make me competent. Sure, you can say it would make me competent when it comes to basic math but in the overall scheme of things it would not effect my competence in say Philosophy or a different subject.

When was Battler deemed as incompetent? Episode 2, when the game just started. Why was Battler deemed as incompetent? Because he wasn't thinking with intellectual honesty and was still dragging his feet in an attempt to defeat the witch while simultaneously declaring everyone as absolutely innocent; an impossible goal.

He stopped meeting these conditions roughly around the end of Episode 3, so there is absolutely no reason to assume that Battler is incompetent anywhere near around the time he became a Sorcerer. The Red Truths are not immutable and timeless, and neither is Battler's personality. Time changes a man, and time can change the Truth.

[Renall]

The writer of the message bottles, at least, intended to protect him (in fiction). Bear in mind Battler isn't the only person to survive both ep1 and ep2. There's also Maria.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

When was Battler deemed as incompetent? Episode 2, when the game just started. Why was Battler deemed as incompetent? Because he wasn't thinking with intellectual honesty and was still dragging his feet in an attempt to defeat the witch while simultaneously declaring everyone as absolutely innocent; an impossible goal.

He stopped meeting these conditions roughly around the end of Episode 3, so there is absolutely no reason to assume that Battler is incompetent anywhere near around the time he became a Sorcerer. The Red Truths are not immutable and timeless, and neither is Battler's personality. Time changes a man, and time can change the Truth.

Actually, Battler was deemed incompetent because he should have already known the answer. Like I stated, Battler even knew that he should have solved this mystery before episode 5; I know that R07 said the mystery is solvable after episode 4, but that is for us and Battler had knowledge we did not. Hell, he even didn't know if Beatrice's approach to beating Erika in episode 6 was acceptable.