[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[k//eternal]

If "Ushiromiya Kinzo" is a title (in addition to a name), then the idea that it is purely a name has been subverted. That's all I'm talking about.

Also, I don't think Battler would be tricked by that, but I'm also saying that it's a possible exploit. Dishonest, maybe, but the red is sometimes (or often?) used as a trap, as seen in both EP3 and EP4.

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

*Wants to give in some Shkanon theory support*

But Shannon can still be talked about and "exist" on the gameboard. Because the only way Shkanon could exist is by the fact that Sayo is related to 34, which is related to Lambdadelta. And just like Bern's piece (Erika) she is able to add and use a charater that doesn't physically exist. If we assume that most of the scenes through out the VN are metaphors for what really happened/could've, it's still possible for the Shkanon theory to work. Shkanon theory as in the Shannon we know is a split personality of Kanon's.

And with one less physical body count gone, it's possible for another "Mysterious Person X."

The question I have is this: Can someone explain the whole scene with Kanon and Shannon telling them one another how only one of them could end up with their respective love interest without using the Shkanon theory? That's the only way I can explain it as: A metaphorical scene in which Kanon is both "Shannon" and "Kanon" and can't decide between George or Jessica.

Note: excuse the randomness...I jsut came in a long conversation and I'm new to it. Sorry if it's out of the blue but there was so much that I wanted to reply to...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

If "Ushiromiya Kinzo" is a title (in addition to a name), then the idea that it is purely a name has been subverted. That's all I'm talking about.

Also, I don't think Battler would be tricked by that, but I'm also saying that it's a possible exploit. Dishonest, maybe, but the red is sometimes (or often?) used as a trap, as seen in both EP3 and EP4.

Let's not forget that while she didn't counter "Kinzo is a title," neither did she confirm it, and it's never really come up again. If we believe Virgilia and Ronove that Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth, perhaps not immediately shooting down the name/title thing was relevant, just not to Kinzo.

Certainly all the ep5 stuff about Kinzo suggests that if "Kinzo" is an inheritable title, no one in ep5 inherited it, as all the red seems oddly specific about the Kinzo to whom it refers.

[ijriims]

Enough about Shkanon theory for a moment

Anyone who would like to share their thoughts on the only gold texts in EP6.

If only someone knowing the "Answer" can use it, then does it mean that the suit-troll Beatrice had known the "Answer" as well?

Anyone would like to propose their golden text theory (again)?

[LyricalAura]

I'll probably regret getting involved in this argument, but what the hey.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

1. Virgilia tells Battler "Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone." If her intention was to prove the innocence of the Battler she was talking to, she would have said "You, the one Ushiromiya Battler I am talking to, aren't the culprit." Because she took the round about approach, its evident that she couldn't establish the Battler she was talking to as innocent.

Meta Battler was born from the Piece Battler of Episode 1. He is not equivalent to the Piece Battlers of Episodes 2-5. Therefore it isn't sufficient to say that "You are not the culprit" because that would only exonerate the Piece Battler of Episode 1.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

2. After Virgilia's red, Battler uses Blue to establish himself as the culprit. If he was indeed not the culprit as Virgilia's red claimed, he could never have used the blue to frame himself as the culprit. Therefore, he is the culprit.

It was demonstrated in the trial in Episode 5 that it is possible to state a theory in blue that has already been denied in red. Knox 4 was presented in red as early as the study battle, but Battler was still able to theorize in the courtroom that the first twilight victims were killed remotely with Drug X that caused their throats to spontaneously be cut.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

4. The Knox's rule that the detective can't be the culprit applies only to the answer episodes and Battler isn't the detective for those. The very fact that he was stripped of his detective position the moment that rule was brought in is a hint that he is the culprit.

Since you distrust Knox so much, I'll work around them. According to Dlanor, the piece under the control of Meta Battler was the detective in the first four games. The detective's viewpoint is objective and may not present a lie. These facts are independent of the Knox laws. As shown by Erika, the detective's viewpoint isn't required to show everything, but in the case of a large number of murders, Piece Battler's viewpoint places him in the presence of other survivors, giving him an impenetrable alibi.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

The question I have is this: Can someone explain the whole scene with Kanon and Shannon telling them one another how only one of them could end up with their respective love interest without using the Shkanon theory? That's the only way I can explain it as: A metaphorical scene in which Kanon is both "Shannon" and "Kanon" and can't decide between George or Jessica.

Spoiler for EP6:

That entire "only one pairing can survive" shenanigan in EP6 was purely in magic scenes or scenes discussing magic, so NONE of it has to be explained. It could very easily be a gigantic troll swinging us to Shkanon, and the bluntness with which it was presented is the reason why I'm not just going to swing to that theory so easily. Plus in some ways the whole thing with the brooch is kind of contradictory with the magic scenes in EP2, where Shannon claimed that she didn't need it anymore and outright handed the miracle off to Kanon.

In my opinion it could simply have been used as a way to give some sort of "closure" to Jessica and Kanon while also inciting interesting conflict between (arguably) the two closest characters in the series. Because just having the moe pairing happy would be boring, troll-less, and generally un-Ryuukishi-esque.

Originally Posted by ijriims

Enough about Shkanon theory for a moment

Anyone who would like to share their thoughts on the only gold texts in EP6.

If only someone knowing the "Answer" can use it, then does it mean that the suit-troll Beatrice had known the "Answer" as well?

Anyone would like to propose their golden text theory (again)?

I agree. I think we really need to try and find alternate theories instead of repeatedly arguing the most obvious one.

As for what I think gold text is? Text that applies to all gameboards without fail - essentially red truths that cannot change from game to game.

[supertonia]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Enough about Shkanon theory for a moment

Anyone who would like to share their thoughts on the only gold texts in EP6.

If only someone knowing the "Answer" can use it, then does it mean that the suit-troll Beatrice had known the "Answer" as well?

Anyone would like to propose their golden text theory (again)?

Beatroll was GM in ep 1-4 so she surely knew the answer even if she wasn't GM in ep 5-6 Also beatroll knows the Rule XYZ as mentioned in extra tips which is what the gameboard is set on and the sourse of her magic.

Could somesone post the Golden truths since i haven't read them yet pelase >.<

Add: Gold truth is a truth that leaves no point for argurment neither in red or blue it's apsolute truth nothing can deny it

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

Because the only way Shkanon could exist is by the fact that Sayo is related to 34, which is related to Lambdadelta.

San Yon

...Maybe?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

I agree. I think we really need to try and find alternate theories instead of repeatedly arguing the most obvious one.

As for what I think gold text is? Text that applies to all gameboards without fail - essentially red truths that cannot change from game to game.

The gold from EP6:
You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

Heh, I think this kills just about every gold text theory out there.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The gold from EP6:
You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

Heh, I think this kills just about every gold text theory out there.

I think it actually works with the "gold represents premises that define the argument or scenario" theory. Since the Beatrices agreed they were going to replicate the feat with magic, the gold reinforces this; their premise was not to use trickery or sleight of hand, and the method employed reflects this.

It's not perfect, but it's a possibility.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Frankly, at this point, you've surpassed anyone else I've seen in thinking like Erika, especially when you stated in my post that Natsuhi being the culprit is still possible, that small bombs are plausible (for cripes' sake, it's a meme precisely it's so stupid), and that when we point out the red truths, you whine and go "But it can mean this too!"
Let me put it this way: what would it take for you to decide with certainty that Battler isn't the culprit? As far as I can tell, in order to decide that Battler is not the culprit, you want a red truth stating that says, The Ushiromiya Battler in front of me who went on Rokkenjima and talked with his cousins and his parents on the island of Rokkenjima is not the culprit. Or something along those lines.

I'll go ahead and "refute" two of your ideas while I'm at it:


That's possibly true ..... if Virgillia knows that there is more than one Battler, and if Battler himself has any concern about this other Battler (which he doesn't). We have no evidence of Virgillia knowing anyways.


I'm beginning to wonder if you've played Episode 5 at all now.
The blue truth that Battler used was in the presence of the court, and was in the presence of the court rules. The red truth wasn't, so in the context of the rulings of the court, it didn't count. That simple.


The fact is, your style of thinking opens up a massive can of worms, and frankly there is no way the mystery could be solvable after 4 episodes if we followed it. You've utterly twisted the red truths and molded them into whatever form you wanted so you can have your solution. Well, I can have my solution of giant grizzly bears who rampaged through the island and killed everything if I work with the red truth. We can play your game with any possible theory imaginable, and if all theories are equally valid under your rules, none of them are. Consequently, under your logic, there is no way Ryukishi could expect us to solve this thing.

Episode 5 explicitly attacks against this line of thinking, against thinking that literally anything not in red can be questioned as Erika used your line of thinking to construct her Natsuhi adultery idea. I'll play your game: explain why, WITHOUT using Ushiromiya Natsuhi is the culprit, that theory is wrong, which everyone who plays Episode 5 understand it is (and if you believe that that's a valid theory, then you're an fool and I'm done dealing with you.)


Really?
Have you played this game at all? Did you forget the ENTIRE second arc, where Beatrice was taunting him with "Accept the witch or accept that someone on this island did it" and he couldn't choose? Have you not noticed at all that Battler has been highly reluctant to suspect any of the people on the island?
I really you can't believe you haven't noticed this.

Except for the very last line, your post is the repeat of what you have already said and what I have already proven inconclusive or wrong or simply your opinion.

To summarize, you think my theory implies that ryuukishi07 is cheating and there is no way he could asspull like that but I think its completely within his powers to establish it as true given that there are enough hints to make it plausible and he has the authority to write however much he wants to anyway. And I would find it utterly magnificent if he can pull off making Shkanon believable or proving Battler as the culprit. As for the Natsuhi bit, I never considered her the culprit but its a fact that her innocence hasn't been concretely established, only heavily implied.

Virgilia claiming Battler as innocent would have been enough really, if it were not for the trouble the game went to establish that there were two Ushiromiya Battlers, after which, its clearly suspicious that Virgilia uses third person to tell Battler in person that "Battler-kun isn't the culprit."

And In fact, all of my points except the Virgilia and Knox part come from the first four episodes and the only reason any Ep5 parts are in is to prove that they don't disprove this theory, to the contrary, they aid it. The massive amount of worms fail to even appear, they exist only inside your little gray cells unfortunately. Bring them out and have them eat my theory if you can.

If anything, EP 5 established that people should be open to any possibility and consider any theory to reach the truth (i.e, ryuukishi07 is telling us to embrace ourselves for a fall), gain another eye to see things in 3D and trust the author enough to believe that any plausible theory, no matter how absurd it looks right now, will be explained in due fashion. Unless the game was going to have a highly improbably answer like this one or Shkanon, there was no need for him to go through all that trouble of telling his readers to trust him or to consider any possibility.

I don't get what you want me to do with KinzoxNatsuhi. You want me to refute it? Without using "Natsuhi isn't the culprit"? o.0. First off, why do I need to prove it? Second off, I already told you that the game doesn't disprove it (even with the red) so there is no way I could disprove it.

Spoiler for since you got serious and all:

I don't give a flying fuck if you are done with me mate . If you think I am AN fool, so be it. I have done no wrong to be hated, I gave a theory, established it with enough evidence and followed up on every damned accusation, no matter how absurd and how repetitive. Frankly, it will be a blessing in disguise if you are done talking here, because, unfortunate though it is, you aren't suited for this genre and thus, not this style of thinking. I will never say your perspective is lower than mine or that you are a fool but I will say this much, I don't get disturbed by people calling me a fool, I have had much worse and I have triumphed over much harsher people under much much strict conditions than trolling an internet forum. That said, good luck with your life, may you continue enjoying Umineko

(Just as a side note, I am not 'an' fool, I could never be 'an' fool )

As for the last line, I thought of it, which is why I didn't include it in the main theory but Battler, once he is the GM, already knows the truth. Do you know what that means? If there was any other culprit, he would know who that particular person was. Do you seriously believe he would still cover for that person by brandishing himself as the culprit? The battler I know would rage and absolutely positively summon the culprit to hell, more so if its someone he trusted because that would mean the trust of the family was destroyed. He would punch them right there are then. Sorry, but this is what the episode two arc really meant. He doesn't want to think of anyone he knows as the culprit. But if he gets absolute proof that one of them is the culprit, he will go berserk at them more than he ever would if it was some random witch or unknown killer. And by Ep5 tea party, he already knows who the culprit is but still uses himself as the culprit theory to contradict Erika. In normal games, this would be conclusive evidence that he is the culprit. But since this is Uminkeo, its just one more hint that could easily be the red herring.

[supertonia]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Spoiler for EP6:

That entire "only one pairing can survive" shenanigan in EP6 was purely in magic scenes or scenes discussing magic, so NONE of it has to be explained. It could very easily be a gigantic troll swinging us to Shkanon, and the bluntness with which it was presented is the reason why I'm not just going to swing to that theory so easily. Plus in some ways the whole thing with the brooch is kind of contradictory with the magic scenes in EP2, where Shannon claimed that she didn't need it anymore and outright handed the miracle off to Kanon.

In my opinion it could simply have been used as a way to give some sort of "closure" to Jessica and Kanon while also inciting interesting conflict between (arguably) the two closest characters in the series. Because just having the moe pairing happy would be boring, troll-less, and generally un-Ryuukishi-esque.

I agree. I think we really need to try and find alternate theories instead of repeatedly arguing the most obvious one.

As for what I think gold text is? Text that applies to all gameboards without fail - essentially red truths that cannot change from game to game.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The gold from EP6:
You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

Heh, I think this kills just about every gold text theory out there.

I think this might be a metamophor (not sure if this is the word sorry my eng sucks >.<) And it refers to closed rooms?

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I'll probably regret getting involved in this argument, but what the hey.



Meta Battler was born from the Piece Battler of Episode 1. He is not equivalent to the Piece Battlers of Episodes 2-5. Therefore it isn't sufficient to say that "You are not the culprit" because that would only exonerate the Piece Battler of Episode 1.



It was demonstrated in the trial in Episode 5 that it is possible to state a theory in blue that has already been denied in red. Knox 4 was presented in red as early as the study battle, but Battler was still able to theorize in the courtroom that the first twilight victims were killed remotely with Drug X that caused their throats to spontaneously be cut.



Since you distrust Knox so much, I'll work around them. According to Dlanor, the piece under the control of Meta Battler was the detective in the first four games. The detective's viewpoint is objective and may not present a lie. These facts are independent of the Knox laws. As shown by Erika, the detective's viewpoint isn't required to show everything, but in the case of a large number of murders, Piece Battler's viewpoint places him in the presence of other survivors, giving him an impenetrable alibi.

1) Fine enough. But that still doesn't prove the innocence of any of the piece-battlers because there are more than one battlers.

2) Hmm, I will have to go through this again, wait up a while, I will edit this after that.

Edit: Pfft, took me a while to find the exact place where that happens. And it wasn't worth the trouble at all. Battler simply states another one the blue truths that gets promptly cut in half by Knox's rule. That doesn't even begin to serve as proof that blue truth can me made of facts already disproved by red, its a new theory battler makes, not the same old one (although they are of similar nature and thus they do get denied by a standard red, its pretty much like all those +X theories, doesn't prove that you can make a blue truth of a fact denied by red truth and get away with it) and it gets cut down right away. And like I said, why would Bernkastel, who was going all out in that battle, hold back the "But you aren't the culprit" red truth?

3)The impenetrable alibi theory has no proof. Battler, detective or not, can kill everyone and still appear normal before the survivors. If this impenetrable theory was true, there was no need to bring in Dlanor to declare that Erika was innocent by his rule that states that the detective can be the culprit. Simply by the existence of the necessity of bringing in Dlanor to prove it for Erika, the game proves that Battler, who didn't have Dlanor vouching him with red, had no such alibi.

[ameskitty]

Yeah, it's tricky, but if magic is part of the rules or definition of the gameboard it might still work XD. Needs explaining, to be sure.

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

Originally Posted by Mikachiru

San Yon

...Maybe?

Possibly. I myself don't actually know how it relates to 34 (I can't read japanese). But I think it has something to do with the characters and how it is being read..."Lambdadelta" also relates to 34. As well as the fact that Furfur is apparahently the 34th demon of the 72 demons (and most likely represents Shannon). Which makes me lead to believe that Lambdadelta (34) has control over Shannon/Sayo (34) on the gameboard...but since she doesn't physically exist and most likely is just a split personality of Kanon's...Furfur and Zepar represent the two different personalities that Kanon has (Both "Shannon" and Kanon's).

*Will stop with the Shkanon theories*

So...what is the difference between the red and blue truths? I know what the golden truth is...but I don't get the difference between the red and blue truth. D:

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The gold from EP6:
You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

Heh, I think this kills just about every gold text theory out there.

Hmm... And the other example we have is I guarantee that this is the corpse of Ushiromiya Kinzo, even though there is no objective means of determining that a particular corpse belongs to Kinzo and no clue was presented that Battler had ever found the corpse.

If blue text is a reflection of Bernkastel's power, "possibility", and red text is a reflection of Lambda's power, "certainty", then gold should be a reflection of Beato's power, "magic". We know from what Virgilia and Ange have said that magic is essentially the same as lying, and endless magic is a lie that can never be found out, creating a cat box. So maybe that's what gold text is: a false statement that can never be uncovered as a lie, so that it becomes "true"?

[supertonia]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

Possibly. I myself don't actually know how it relates to 34 (I can't read japanese). But I think it has something to do with the characters and how it is being read..."Lambdadelta" also relates to 34. As well as the fact that Furfur is apparahently the 34th demon of the 72 demons (and most likely represents Shannon). Which makes me lead to believe that Lambdadelta (34) has control over Shannon/Sayo (34) on the gameboard...but since she doesn't physically exist and most likely is just a split personality of Kanon's...Furfur and Zepar represent the two different personalities that Kanon has (Both "Shannon" and Kanon's).

*Will stop with the Shkanon theories*

So...what is the difference between the red and blue truths? I know what the golden truth is...but I don't get the difference between the red and blue truth. D:

Red is fact (of course it can be word play)
Blue is a possible theory that deny's witches if it doens't deny witches it can't be said in blue

If blue text is a reflection of Bernkastel's power, "possibility", and red text is a reflection of Lambda's power, "certainty", then gold should be a reflection of Beato's power, "magic". We know from what Virgilia and Ange have said that magic is essentially the same as lying, and endless magic is a lie that can never be found out, creating a cat box. So maybe that's what gold text is: a false statement that can never be uncovered as a lie, so that it becomes "true"?

About the 3 "truths" I personaly believe that they respresent rule XYZ "read extra tips bern's letter"
It says that everythign that can't be explained with rule X and Y can be explained with Z
And Z is the key for reaching the core of rule X and Y.
So i belive rule X and Y are gold and red respectively and Z is blue.
Also it says that Lamda got near rule X but not to the core and that's why she can't use gold truth

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Hmm... And the other example we have is I guarantee that this is the corpse of Ushiromiya Kinzo, even though there is no objective means of determining that a particular corpse belongs to Kinzo and no clue was presented that Battler had ever found the corpse.

If blue text is a reflection of Bernkastel's power, "possibility", and red text is a reflection of Lambda's power, "certainty", then gold should be a reflection of Beato's power, "magic". We know from what Virgilia and Ange have said that magic is essentially the same as lying, and endless magic is a lie that can never be found out, creating a cat box. So maybe that's what gold text is: a false statement that can never be uncovered as a lie, so that it becomes "true"?

Hmm, I'm thinking it might have something more to do with how the Game Master creates the world. I've always wondered how, practically speaking, Lambda, Beato, and Battler decided which scenes to show and furthermore, which false scenes to show. Maybe saying something in gold text is just a way to show something to the "player"...

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

Thank you~

--

Have they announce what Battler's sin officially was/is and the answer to Beato's riddle of Battler's death but there being no one on the island?

[supertonia]

No they haven't be answered yet. beato last riddles would be probably the last explained for battler's sin we only know that he broke a promise to beato