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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 791 | 63.74% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 163 | 13.13% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 95 | 7.66% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 67 | 5.40% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 17 | 1.37% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 18 | 1.45% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 7 | 0.56% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 7 | 0.56% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 4 | 0.32% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 72 | 5.80% | |
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-02-24, 21:58 | Link #5021 | |||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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I don't think Suzaku was thinking that Euphemia would agree with the way ZR turned out, not at all...but at least you could see he was being swayed by his desires for vengeance in her name, for making Lelouch pay and for achieving results instead of focusing on methods which had failed him. Quite a few times he did manage to pull back and choose the right path (or a better one), but towards the end of the show he did not. Quote:
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I think this was rather underplayed in the show, but that factor is something one can't really forget when discussing Suzaku's behavior. If anything, I think that would go a long way towards explaining why he changed so quickly, even if his actions seem erratic on the surface. Lelouch, of course, is also responsible for this because of the Geass command, but one can't say this doesn't put a huge weight on Suzaku's shoulders, especially from his own perspective. Remember that just killing his own father had already forced him to radically change. Quote:
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But the rest really depends on how much you want to question the status quo presented by the show at the end. In my humble opinion, that's a situation which goes against the more cynical views even if those could be more realistic (but then again, this show has only occasionally tried to be realistic, even back during the first season). Going by what we actually see for ourselves, the world may be a mess but is certainly not worse off than it was before. You may think that's stupid, but that's the way it is presented. Britannia lost all its Areas and its nobility was crushed, being in no shape to start any wars (the conquering armies were made up of slaves to Lelouch, who no longer exists), and the UFN seems to be the predominating system. I don't think this is going to last forever either, not by a long shot, but at the time that's how it is. Quote:
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In other words, geniuses can be irrational, just like all human beings are, especially if you put them in convoluted, melodramatic situations. Some people in this world tragically kill themselves for what are foolish reasons, even if they had promising careers or honors, which would normally be signs of having some smarts. In the end, Code Geass R2 is still a flawed show with many signs of lazy writing, that much I will never deny, but like I said before...I think it has some thematic strengths, even if it's also logically weak at the same time. Last edited by Xander; 2009-02-24 at 22:41. |
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2009-02-24, 22:45 | Link #5022 | ||||||||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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Had he not been preaching about the evils of Geass and about Nunally/Euphie post the bomb, then I would have possibly accepted your explanation. But his actions are incomprehensible. Similarly, he threw away the KoO position the moment he had it. The moment he could have finally changed the system by his own methods, the moment Schneizel gave him the power to do it, he threw it away for ZR. It makes no sense. If he is so bent on revenge, he should just kill Lelouch. Doing so at that point, leaves the world in a far better state then it getting torn down by Lelouch. Schneizel, when compared to Lelouch, has never acted poorly. He has never gone against the people, in fact he says that he follows the people's prerogatives to Suzaku. There is to much stupidity in Suzaku's actions. Quote:
(Season 1: He does what he does for what I see as removing the guilt from both present because it would have been rather fruitless to argue with Suzaku. He has no idea what the man knows.) (Season 2 Ep 19: He saved Kallen in a situation where he was almost certainly not going to get freed, and she'd have died right in front of him had he not acted.) Quote:
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If you strip away the happy-tone of Kallen's epilogue, you can see that there are problems. She mentions some of them, but beyond that, the simple status of Britannia is a problem. We are just shown a surface, but in any calm-thought out analysis, there is no way Birtannia is in a good state. Its noble leading body has been ripped asunder. It would be in a situation similar to France after its revolution against the monarchy. Aka, really, really bad. Quote:
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I even have to ask, what would be a non-literal meaning to that? Quote:
Major themes, left wide open, is not something you leave to viewers. Just as I would consider how they handled the Geass plot a complete cop-out. The explanation given by Okouchi is nothing more than a bucket of piss for the people who cared about the subplot. They simply had no idea what they were doing with it, if the C.C., Moe C.C., and code contradictions are any indications. Quote:
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2009-02-24, 23:39 | Link #5023 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Irrational? Yes, but siding with Schneizel (as well as pushing him to act) was already going against his preferred methods and ideals, since that meant engaging in rebellion, which is what he always tried to avoid and why he fought Zero in the first place. Under normal conditions (and this concept seems to be accepted by one of the non-canon stories which talks about how Charles came to power, if I remember correctly), a Britannian civil war would have probably erupted after the disappearance of Charles, with pro- and anti- Schneizel factions. Maybe Suzaku would have been satisfied with the KoO position, but Lelouch offered him ZR and a chance to get his vengeance almost immediately after dealing with the Emperor. Schneizel wasn't in any position to succeed then, at least not without seizing the moment and taking care of Lelouch first, but that still leaves some problems before Suzaku can quietly retire to Area 11. Quote:
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This is just speculation, naturally, but it seems to me that the whole Geass subplot was always a secondary matter for the staff. However, the much tighter narrative we saw during the first season allowed them to try to set it up during the later episodes as something potentially bigger, when it was increasingly involved in the central story about Lelouch's rebellion. They tried to give Suzaku's abilities an explanation, for instance, using Geass, giving hints to that effect. But when they changed plans between seasons, they presumably cut a lot of material out and the Geass subplot was quickly shoved back into being only a tool / challenge for Lelouch. They had to scramble to do something with it in the available amount of episodes, since the focus was suddenly placed elsewhere, and it ended up being far less important than it appeared to be. This may not be an accurate interpretation, but the result is still a disappointment. Quote:
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2009-02-25, 00:10 | Link #5024 | ||||||||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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As for following Schneizel. At the moment that Charles dies, Suzaku has become KoO, Schneizel has support from at the very least Cornelia, the other loyals were expecting him to take power (not Lelouch), and the only real competition in their way was Bismark. He was the only real impediment, and he was one man. While they are in the World of C, Suzaku can kill Lelouch, fulfill his vengeance, and once outside serve Schneizel as his KoO and ultimately retire without any large bloodshed or mountains blowing up. (Further, Schneizel's odd god-complex only comes up when Lelouch acts. In all fairness it is presented as Schneizel's attempt to defeat Geass.) The reason that Charles' rise was so brutal was because of the bloodshed in competing for the throne. There was no competition in our timeline, everyone expected Schneizel, even his sisters and elder brother. There was no opposition shown to his coming to power outside of Bismark. Quote:
Not to mention that the entire Damocles plot line was complete and utter bullshit. It was designed for the sake of making Schneizel, who had never been such an extremist, the bad guy. There is no reason for the man to go from "the people have spoken" in China to "I will rule through fear because the people want me to". Further, permanent is too large an exaguration, it would have lasted only as long as he was alive. Historically speaking, rule through fear does not mean bad, either. Some the most prosperous empires (where people led decent lives) were led by monsters. The origin of the code of law is a rule through fear, but its contribution is nothing but positive to the greater whole. Quote:
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Most of the countries ravaged by WWII took tens of years to recuperate to semi-decent status. These are nations who received, for the most part, some form of support from the world. In our case the world is in this sad state, who are they going to receive guiding help from? The moon? Quote:
Honestly, I am going to be blunt, I don't think Okouchi knows how history works in his creation of ZR. Or if he does, he really did not care about CG beyond salvaging the wreck that it was into something semi-feasible. CGs approach to history went from understandable (S1) to a mockery (R2, and especially ZR). Quote:
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So much of R2 was plot convenience and nothing more, that its hard to buy that Lelouch's plot convenience was anything more than what it was. Kallen's capture, plot convenience, Nunally's death, plot convenience, two month time skip, plot conveninence. I can list about one thing per episode, some with more than one. |
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2009-02-25, 00:23 | Link #5026 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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1. Lelouch was a completely broken man who was a shell of his former self and in his despair he comes up with a bat shit insane idea to pretty much destroy the world so that others can rebuild it while he kills himself and drowns out Euphemia;s name. 2.. The entire thing was an elaborate Suicide by cop to make himself look like Jesus. A guy who goes on a rampage so the cops will kill him will look like a nutcase A guy who dies so that the world will be reborn looks like Jesus. So Lelouch comes up with a plan to kill millions so that when his killed by Suzaku instead of looking like a nutcase to everyone he will instead look like a brave man who gave his life so that the world can be reborn. If his plan was to rebuild the world he did an incredibly shitty job of it, he left no one outside of the few members of the royal family as competent rulers of Britannia. Japan has a whopping total of one competent leader with a complete idiot as Prime Minister, and the rest of the UFN has no one competent in their leadership. Between Lelouch and Britannia, the world is pretty much in shambles and no one besides Kaguya, Schneizel, Cornelia, and Nunnaly to fix it. Quote:
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2009-02-25, 00:29 | Link #5027 |
Banned
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I love how so many people are missing the point of so many scenes. Of course if you wanted to you could make almost any seen in this show look like poor writing, but looked at in the right way a lot of things work out and make perfect sense. Except for Gino, but then again he was a worthless excuse for a character.
Anyway is this thread not just plain over yet? Are you people not bored of this same old dance. It's a shame that none of the good old boys who actually appreciated parts of this show are even around anymore. Is this purgatory for those who couldn't resolve their grievances with it while it was airing? Such a conundrum. Anyway WTF at some people suddenly forgetting that the Fleija incident in Toyko caused Suzaku to go somewhat insane and twisted him into a person that no longer held any ideas but believed strictly in results. I believe this was covered without any room for question. A lot of this "plot convinience" to me seems more like people just not paying attention to said plot. Let's slow down on the bitching and blame game nonsense and actually think about what we are saying. Okay? |
2009-02-25, 00:36 | Link #5028 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Just look at the scene where Lelouch uses the trick on Mao and when he uses the trick on Schneizel. One was great writing the second was horrible writing that breaks the suspension of disbelief. With Gundam 00 my problems are more that the scenes I don't like are not my cup of tea, but with R2 these problems are legitmate bad writing. Personally the whole last few episodes look like they where written over an entire weekend as Okouchi is not normally a bad writer and the first season was really good. You point out that Suzaku was broken by FLEIJA and I would agree by the end of the series killing Suzaku would count as a mercy kill, but Lelouch didn't come off as broken. messed up maybe but not broken to the point that killing him would count as a mercy kill. |
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2009-02-25, 00:49 | Link #5029 | |
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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If there is anything that the fandom can agree on, which I find rather humorous, is that Gino was the most worthless thing ever created in this show. Even Tamaki does had a point. If we wish to reach a conclusion, why don't we just blame CLAMP for inserting the worthless sombrero into the story? He created a fair share of Code Geass contradictions all on his own. I don't think I am ignoring the FLEIJA incident, in fact we've been discussing it rather head on. The point is that Suzaku's character goes through a series of flips and flops after the fact that make it rather... perplexing. |
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2009-02-25, 00:50 | Link #5030 | ||
Banned
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Zero no Requiem needs explaining now? I thought the show covered this just fine. When Lelouch was in the World of C with Suzaku he had an epiphany. If he could make the world focus on him as it's enemy instead of two nations against each other then they might learn to work together and form a lasting relationship in the process. It's like the theory of the devil and how it unifies members of the church, when people have a common enemy they will work together to destroy it. The enemy of the enemy is ones friend. Of course this isn't necessarily the way it always works in real life and the devil as a common any is kind of a lucky exception, but this is after all an anime and not all anime are true to real life. No, stop, they aren't and I defy people to try and argue otherwise. It still doesn't stop it from working though, that is what is important. I fail to see how this is bad writing. Maybe it's the cliche "bad writing", but in terms of actual bad writing, not really. Lelouch predicting what Schneizel will say? Kind of a random one, but I'll need you to explain how one is good writing and the other isn't when they are basically the same goddamn thing, before I can really go any further on it. I have nothing to address here you see and the scene explains otherwise explains itself until I have something specific to address regarding it. Why do I need to explain why the Black Knights came off like traitorous idiots if you already seem to think that's the case? You see....lol...that isn't how it works, your are supposed to be trying to get me to address things you disagree with, not trying to get me to reaffirm things that you do agree with. You seem confused here. Perhaps you ought to lie down and just chew on the first paragraph and then we shall move on. Quote:
Anyway yeah...Gino was the definition of plot convience in this anime, but I'd rather prefer not to talk about him as I'd rather not have Charred Knight seize upon it and go on about it for 10 more pages if it could be avoided. One would do well to limit their complaints in this kind of environment if they ever hope to get anywhere. As for Suzaku's character, maybe for you but not to me. I chalk it up to his not being quite certain which side he wanted to follow until around episode 21. Then again I never found the loyalty shifts to be nearly as big a problem as so many others did. That seems to be the chief gripe among most who heavily criticize this season, but I mean really, is it that hard to see why the Black Knights might choose to break from Lelouch after what they had learned, even if it wasn't the best of decisions to be made, and is really hard to figure out why Suzaku might choose to side with Lelouch once he found out they had pretty much the same goal? A huge amount of trust was broken among certain characters during the Betrayal episode and if people expected the status quo to remain intact after the revelations that some characters had in that episode then truly they are just engaging in wishful thinking. |
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2009-02-25, 00:55 | Link #5031 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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The only time Suzaku was ever out of character in the first half of R2 was the million zero scene where Suzaku basically lets the entire Black Knights and some civilians go without a fight, and that scene was just badly written as it ignores the fact that Britannia massacres people at the drop of a hat, and that Suzaku wants Zero captured at all cost. Basically its Season 1 Suzaku in Season 2 to make a plot work. After that Shirley died and Suzaku was under a ton of stress before being completely broken by FLEIJA. Really Suzaku is probably the least of my problems with R2. Quote:
As for Mao if I remember that scene correctly all Lelouch was doing was basically mocking him and constantly interrupting him, so it makes sense that you could make a video tape of that since all yoiur doing is yelling at each other. With Schneizel they where having an entire conversation, and Lelouch was able to predict what Schneizel was going to say and when. |
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2009-02-25, 01:05 | Link #5032 | ||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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You really never gain a "time of unity". You can say that the world meanwhile united in its hatred but this is only two months. There can not be any long standing bonds formed from this. Its like a guerilla war and coup, no real form beyond "take down the ruling party, take over". Once the leaders are out into the new world and they take over... they've had even less chance to bond. The logic is understandable, the execution is poor and, ironically, illogical. It simply wasn't something for Code Geass to use as its conclusion, in all honesty. Quote:
When reading a book and running into a problem with characters I won't wonder to myself if perhaps the author did not have a chance to hammer out the idea and try to fill in the blanks. I'll rightfully call himout on sloppiness, even if I understand the intention. This is an art form afterall, and sloppy art is sloppy. |
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2009-02-25, 01:06 | Link #5033 | ||||||
Banned
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The deal had been that Zero would be exiled in exchange for a pardon of all Black Knight members and they followed through on it because they didn't need a million civilians coming down on them or the world seeing them massacring all of these people on live television. Like WTF are you even talking about when you say that Britannia always massacres people. You know what would have been stupid writing? If Britannia had followed through on massacring all of those people in broad daylight. It would have been a massive public relations disaster for them that they simply couldn't afford if they hoped to maintain order in Japan. Plus as Rohmeyer pointed out, that was a huge workforce that they did not want to lose if it could be avoided. Pull the trigger and wipe out all of the people who could work for the empire, or let them go and hopefully get them back later once the rebellion is all over. The decision seems obvious to me. You need to think before throwing out the bad writing cliche next time. Hold that one in boy, because it just ain't flyin'. Quote:
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You know what though, I really don't care anymore to be honest. People have worn this sloppy writing, bad writing whatever hatchet so thin that it's high time they switched over to a new one. It's lost it's edge and ability to cut at the narrative of this show is what I'm trying to say and it's high time people learned to lay it to rest and to move on. Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2009-02-25 at 01:22. |
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2009-02-25, 01:24 | Link #5034 | |||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Killing Lelouch within the World of C would pretty much mean that Charles would win. Killing him afterwards was prevented because Lelouch managed to sell the new plan to Suzaku off-screen. For all we know, Suzaku originally intended to do what you've just said. Quote:
I won't even try to explain Schneizel, since I also didn't quite get what was going on with him there and didn't really like him as a character. Quote:
A pessimistic interpretation is valid, but so is a more positive one, because there's really no way to confirm either of them other than "I expect this to happen based on my interpretation of historical example X, you expect something else based on your interpretation of historical example Y" without enough solid information. Quote:
To tell you the truth, I never expected history, of all things, to be accurately represented and dealt with in this show (extremely few series, like Legend of Galactic Heroes, even do an acceptable job). A world divided into three huge powers isn't what I would call a realistic setup, though even that idea was handled better in 00's first season (and I still wouldn't call it too realistic there either, even if some aspects of modern politics were given more attention, but that's for another discussion) than in Code Geass R1. I expected more from the plot, yes, but not in this area. Quote:
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2009-02-25, 01:25 | Link #5035 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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Nina is no longer racist even though nothing happened that could have caused that big of a change. I mean the millions of people who died due to Fleija where nearly all Britannians. If she took out all of Tokyo and the death toll included huge portions of Japanese than I could understand but the Japanese where spared, making her complete change in personality umbelivab;le. The fact that the Japanese getting along with Britannia is also ridiculous it works because the writers says it works. Britannia, Japanese and Europeans no longer hate each other because Lelouch was a douchebag for two whole months. Then again that's a problem that cropped up in the middle of R2 as well. Compare Guilford's personality with Suzaku in R2 to his personality in the first season. Cornelia also suffers from off screen character development. While I do agree that this is rushed, and that it probably wouldn't have happened if R2 was given the same timeslot it still happened, and rushed writing is still bad writing. Quote:
Who cares if they killed an extra one million Japanese when they already did that in the first invasion. I mean where do you think they got the land for the Britannia portion of Tokyo? Just moved the millions of displaced Japanese to another city? As for Taniguchi and Okouchi making an apology, the only time I have ever seen anyone apologize for something they made was if it was a complete peice of crap that everyone hated, or an old work. Since R2 was popular like GSD I don't expect an apology nor do I think one should be given. If it sells than theirs nothing to aplogize for. Last edited by Charred Knight; 2009-02-25 at 01:35. |
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2009-02-25, 01:43 | Link #5036 | ||||
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2009-02-25, 01:46 | Link #5037 | |||||||
Banned
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This is where it again pays to pay some attention to what you are watching. Seriously just do this and stop making poorly written arguments that make no sense. Quote:
So yeah, stop making horrible arguments that fall apart in less then a paragraphs counterpoint please. Just stop.....it's such as waste. Quote:
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Yes, Britannia does not want those workers dead, they want them alive and they want them under there control, but they were not in a position to do that there. How do you stop a group of 1 million people from comitting an exodus without having to kill most or all of them to accomplish it? You don't, you let them go and try to round them up later when the conflict is resolved, much like the pharaoh in the Bible tried to round up the Israelites after pretending to let them go on an exodus from Egypt. Quote:
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2009-02-25, 02:15 | Link #5038 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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KoR elitist? Outside of the Ashford Academy an d Euphemia the KoR are the nicest Britannians in the entire series. Except for Bradley whose nuts, all of the KoR are presented as outstandimg human beings. Britannia is basically an inversion of Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist. With Amestris the entire army, and people are pretty nice, and the army is heroic and always trying to help people, its the Central Generals who are the problem. With Britannia except for a few bad Generals the leadership of the Army is pretty nice, its just that the majority of the Army is made up of racist bastards who care nothing about killing innocent people. As for me being an elected official the first step I would take in terms of unions is bringing back the Pinkerton Detective Agency to fight the unions. |
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2009-02-25, 02:31 | Link #5039 | ||||
Banned
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Oh and at no point was it ever implicated that every single Britannian was on board with this change in policy, just that times are themselves are changing and the old prejudices are dying out and giving way to a greater spirit of cooperation. And I've noticed that your points are getting shorter so I think I am perhaps starting to get through to you here.....maybe. You see, for every point you can raise there are about 1000 counterpoints I could raise that throws it into chaos. These points of yours are not the sort that are made to stand on anything other then your own word, hence they are week in nature. Quote:
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2009-02-25, 02:42 | Link #5040 | |
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America changed due to the civil rights movement and especially brilliant people like Martin Luther king Jr and through better understanding of how to look at race. Charles policies are heavily applauded, and generally protrayed as well liked, and Charles position is secured. As for being a change in policy, the fact that Britannia is portrayed as always being like this makes me think that its more than just Charles whose at fault. It's not like you can change an entire way of life and belief system easily. Maybe I am cynical but I just can't see how anyone can really think that Britannia can easily change without some kind of pressure from the outside like what happened after World War II. I do admit defeat in some portions but you have also ignored some of my points (Schneizel's defeat being the main one) |
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