[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Ah... I see. Then, did we get a detective for EP6? We had one for EPs 1-5, and since Battler tried to follow Beato's style, there should have been one, no?

I'm not sure, but I think Bern is in charge of who becomes the detective. It was a rule only made in the answer arcs and Bern obviously has some control over how the game goes. It may be that the "detective" rule was created in EP5 but applied retroactively because Battler's perspective never lied.

[rogerpepitone]

re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him. In the anime & manga, there were handprints all over it. There's no way he could have missed that unless he had some sort of vision problem

At the red paint scenes (Jessica's room & Natsuhi's room ep. 2, possibly in Gohda's notebook), is Genji ever the first person to notice or describe it? (Garden storehouse in ep. 1 and chapel in ep. 2 may not count; red paint is against something else.)

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'm not sure, but I think Bern is in charge of who becomes the detective. It was a rule only made in the answer arcs and Bern obviously has some control over how the game goes. It may be that the "detective" rule was created in EP5 but applied retroactively because Battler's perspective never lied.

Ah, this helps me with one somewhat pointless question I've had since Episode 1. What was the "help" Bern said she give the unshown person in the Ura-Tea Party? I took the unknown person to be Battler, and if it was, then what you said makes it make sense now. Bern gave Piece-Battler the detective's authority, even though he didn't know about it, which is why he didn't use it like Erika did (though in my opinion, she abuses it).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him. In the anime & manga, there were handprints all over it. There's no way he could have missed that unless he had some sort of vision problem

At the red paint scenes (Jessica's room & Natsuhi's room ep. 2, possibly in Gohda's notebook), is Genji ever the first person to notice or describe it? (Garden storehouse in ep. 1 and chapel in ep. 2 may not count; red paint is against something else.)

Gohda's notebook shouldn't count either, as that circle was all over the kitchen, which is steel and white.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him.

Didn't he say he had seen it already? Or do you mean that he played along and inspected it later?

Also when he sees the magic circle on the shed, he mentions having seen a similar "scribble" on the door to Natsuhi's room with the same kind of red paint.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I kept thinking about Eva's final attack that web, and Beatrice's final riddle. I think I can solve it. I had a lot of time to think about it since I got some time with the VN.
Episode 3 was absolutely critical in it, it's a claim against the Red Truth, also it has to do with the trap in the 5th game. I also have a hint as to what Battler's sin is. Of course I may be wrong, but then again losing is part of the excitement for me. Here it goes.

Spoiler for Eva's Red Web:

Everyone was confirmed dead at the time of Nanjo's murder Battler's blue was based on the assumption it was a time based Red Truth. The three living were confirmed to have nothing to do with the murder of Nanjo. The dead in terms of a corpse cannot make any move regardless of any corpse controlling technique X. The dead committed this crime, but that is only their status, a person who did this was someone who could be declared dead but still be alive. I'd like to invoke Schroedinger's Catbox, the theory that two truths can exist same time as long as the true status is unknown. For this I'm going to claim that Beatrice the human lives but can be declared non-existant as well as non-living. Her true status is unknown. The Red can attest to one side of the Catbox that Beatrice can be dead. This is a truth it can be declared in Red. But it doesn't come into conflict with the Red about Nanjo murder. Beatrice killed Nanjo, the human mastermind, a person who has the ultimate cover.

Spoiler for Beatrice's Final Mystery:

Battler was killed by Beatrice my stance does not change. Again the Catbox, that the Red is compromised as long as Beatrice's true living or death status is not known. She can exist as well as not exist.

Spoiler for The Trap:

The trap that is seen in Episode 5 is a variation of Eva's Red Web. The Lounge Scene where it was declared that all humans on Rokkenjima were in that very room. This trap can effectively sever any attempt at a culrpit X or in my case Beatrice.

Spoiler for Beatrice of 1967:

As shown by Beatrice that person in 1967 was indeed Beatrice. It was declared in red she was dead. I say it again SHE was declared dead. Beatrice did not use "I Died." She said "She is definitely dead." Beatrice used many forms of I, not once while in the scene of 1967 did Beatrice declare herself that she was that Beatrice. I claim that the Beatrice in that scene was either a sister or the Mother of the Beatrice I am claiming is alive. This was used to reinforce the claim that Beatrice of 1986 was dead. I claim this since it was said that Kinzo had a way of making Beatrice. Although no technique was stated in Red Kinzo may have had the ability to do so. This is where my X comes in. I have no desire to prove that Kinzo's ability to create Beatrice a second time or third time if the story was true in some level.

Spoiler for Against the Red:

I take as evidence the Red of Kinzo's status. It was declared in Red that there were 18 people before the revelation of Kinzo's death. This was a truth that could be said as long as Kinzo's life or death status wasn't confirmed. Schroedinger's Catbox theory. There were instances of Red Changing, multiple times, during Kinzo's death declaration and Erika's arrival declaration. The Human Mastermind Beatrice is no exception.

Spoiler for Battler's Sin:

It was against Ange Ushiromiya. Ange was inducted into the Mariage Sorciere, unknown to Battler was that Beatrice was watching Battler. Battler said to Ange magic does not exist when she told Battler about it. Ange's sin is Battler's sin. The Mariage Sorciere began a decline into the black arts and so on. As seen in Maria's journal the latter parts of it was dedicated to curses and jinxes. I have no reason to prove this. I declare a Devil's proof since there is no way to show the contents of Maria's journal as well as the status of the Mariage Sorciere.

Spoiler for The true culprit:

It was shown that Beatrice had a distinct love of chance and uncertainty. This is different from Beatrice of 1967 where she was shown to be Naive and Sad. The two are separate characters. The numbers on the door were known only to the real Beatrice, she could have planned this way ahead in advance. The letters in the bottle as well as the writing in Maria's journal matched, a Mariage Sorciere really existed. Beatrice was a part of this.

Spoiler for My reasoning.:

I was stuck on Eva's Red, for a long time. How could the dead move and kill. I thought of puppetry, cybernetics, and scientific experiments. But it was useless to think that way, since the person who is dead killed with precision. No matter how well a puppet was made it can't make a hole in Natsuhi's head with a gun no less. Then it hit me...someone who can be declared dead but not really dead. What reinforced my belief was Beatrice's Red declaration of Beatrice of 1967, at that point it was absolutely critical that Beatrice said SHE and not I if she said I then my theory would have been shattered right there and then. Not a fatal blow, but it would have set me back and make me reconsider my theory, but I checked again and got a miracle. The biggest mystery was the biggest key in my opinion. It all started when I tried to destroy Eva's Red Web, when Beatrice destroyed it, I wondered how. She kept talking about my true form and how she didn't want Battler to witness it. Also Lambdadelta kept talking about giving her a worse fate in another Kakera like she was a living person. It clicked from there, the arguments that Maria and Jessica overheard, why Maria was telling the adults Beatrice was there, how Eva killed three people armed with guns. Everything snapped into place from that moment I thought what if Beatrice really is alive and exists on Rokkenjima. I still think more work can be done on it, but still I wanted my thoughts to be known, if my theory can be made better, or if I should abandon my line of thought. To be honest that biggest part was the red Eva's about how no actions but humans could have committed murder or have any influence on the game.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

It was declared in Red that there were 18 people before the revelation of Kinzo's death.

"No more than".

"No more than 18 people." And then, after Kinzo is declared dead, it's "No more than 17".

The red never changed. The whole trick with that wording is that it doesn't actually specify a number, just the highest possible limit. Futhermore, dead people most probably still count towards the limit as long they have died DURING the game.

There is no Unknown Person X. There cannot be an Unknown Person X. It's like magic. It's cheating.

There are no more than 18 people on Rokkenjima.

[chronotrig]

@Dlanor .A. Nox:
Umm, there's a much easier explanation for that scene...in fact, the one Battler uses doesn't violate the red truth. It is never stated in red that all those people were dead at the time of Nanjo's murder. It was just stated that they were all dead at some point after Nanjo's murder.

To use my Shkanontrice/Nanjo theory, let's say Nanjo failed to fully kill Kyrie (but mortally wounds her). Then Kyrie gets a hold of a gun, sees that Nanjo is about to murder Jessica, and kills Nanjo. Kyrie then dies from her wounds or gets shot again. After that, Lambda uses the red text to declare Kyrie's death.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Kaisos:
I'm claiming the Red is true regardless of the wording, there is no wordplay here. Beatrice's dead or alive status is unknown. Because of that I'm saying two truths can exist regardless of wordplay of any kind. Arguing limits is kind of pointless since I'm claiming as a whole the reds claiming the entire population of the island can be true and false. Kinzo's red was just a way of making my point clearer, it's not an actual peg in my theory.

Chronotrig:
I can't deny that possibility either, but you can interpret red in different ways, I can say Eva used that red in the context of that exact time or something like that but it would be pointless so I won't argue that point, anyways if Kyrie or someone else died their body would have been near Nanjo's body or in the hall or something like that. Of course if your saying that person moved away from the room and died then that could work as well.

[Used Can]

As for Beatrice's final mystery, I don't think you need confirmation about her status when you're told:

- And right now, there is no one other than you on this island.
- The only one alive on this island is you.
- Nothing outside the island can interfere.
- You are all alone on this island.
- And of course, I am not you.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I'm claiming the Red is true regardless of the wording, there is no wordplay here.

Refusing to state the exact number of individuals on the island while implying at the same time through tricky wording that you did just confirm the exact number certainly sounds like wordplay to me.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

Arguing limits is kind of pointless since I'm claiming as a whole the reds claiming the entire population of the island can be true and false.

Actually, something similar to this shows up in Ep6, from what I've read of the spoilers.

Not the point though, as what you're saying really just boils down to the Unknown Person X theory, and like I keep saying, that's cheating. The mystery is useless and nonexistent if you bring Unknown Person X into it, as the whole damn point of the story is that Battler has to realize that his relatives and friends are not the kind of people he thought they were.

Originally Posted by Used Can

As for Beatrice's final mystery, I don't think you need confirmation about her status when you're told:

- And right now, there is no one other than you on this island.
- The only one alive on this island is you.
- Nothing outside the island can interfere.
- You are all alone on this island.
- And of course, I am not you.

BOOM!

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Kaisos:
Beatrice was introduced at the start of the story, her existence was hinted at in the beginning. There is no Person X there is Beatrice. Someone introduced that can be dead.

Your not getting my point, I'm saying it's true and at the same time it's not. As long as Beatrice's true life or death status is not known it can be that way.

As for your deathblow. I maintain the stance that regarding Red Truths that have to do with the true number of people, can be both true or false, it can be this way as long as Beatrice's true status is not known, Battler was alone at the time but at the same time Beatrice was also there alive and well.

In essence I'm attacking the red itself, Poisoning the Well, my claim is that as long as Beatrice's true status is not known two sets of reasoning can be established as true. All along people have been going along with the fact that there are no more than 18 people or whatever. This can be stopped by claiming Beatrice is dead or alive.

[chronotrig]

@Dlanor .A. Nox:

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that you can say something false with the red truth as long as you don't know it's wrong?

Also, about my theory, there's no need for Kyrie to leave the hall outside the servant room. It's never stated that Battler or Eva ever walked through that corridor again.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

Kaisos:
Beatrice was introduced at the start of the story, her existence was hinted at in the beginning. There is no Person X there is Beatrice. Someone introduced that can be dead.

Blaming the witch of the portrait for the death of Battler's family is the same as giving in to magic, is what I'm saying.

Certainly, it's possible by certain readings of the red, but that doesn't mean it's probable or in the spirit of the story.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

As for your deathblow. I maintain the stance that regarding Red Truths that have to do with the true number of people, can be both true or false, it can be this way as long as Beatrice's true status is not known, Battler was alone at the time but at the same time Beatrice was also there alive and well.

In essence I'm attacking the red itself, Poisoning the Well, my claim is that as long as Beatrice's true status is not known two sets of reasoning can be established as true. All along people have been going along with the fact that there are no more than 18 people or whatever. This can be stopped by claiming Beatrice is dead or alive.

So you're arguing that the red truth is wrong for the purposes of confirming your theory.

I'm not saying that your theory is impossible, mind. Just saying that I see it as needlessly overcomplicated.

I mean, what's the point of trying to twist the red to prove that Beatrice is still alive and killing everyone, besides ruining the mystery?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that you can say something false with the red truth as long as you don't know it's wrong?

He's using the Schrodinger thing. He's saying that two opposing truths are both true at the same time, thus allowing both of them to be said in red.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Chronotrig:
It's true as long as no actual confirmation of Beatrice's status is given. It's wholly true it has a 50% chance of being false as well as being true the same goes to me, by doing this I have a noose around my neck as well, since my blue has the same odds.


But they found Nanjo's corpse right how did they find that again? It should be that Nanjo and Kyrie died near the same general area I think...of course I might be misunderstanding your point as well.

Kaisos:
It's not the witch of the portrait it's Beatrice hiding behind the witch's guise. What was the point of the Beato twin's discussion about making the servants slowly believe. That is another part of it that made me more more affirmed.

It's the main culprit the mastermind of the story, of course it's not something that can easily be explained. So of course I'm not expecting much joy or agreement for my theory. No one is the judge of Ryuukishi's story but Ryuukishi himself, so to claim the soul and the main point of the story is just trying to appeal to your argument. I said time and time again the truth is the truth, it can be for some people that cauliflower tastes like crap or fish tastes gross. It's truth for me but for alot of people it's the truth that fish tastes good. Two points of truth can be maintained, Ange's discussion with the stakes really helped me as well. Even Maria's red look at it, her story was true even if it was false to Erika.

Was anything about Beatrice's game simple? nothing was, Beatrice even twisted the red to assume Battler wasn't even allowed to play anymore.
She used red to show that Battler wasn't worthy of playing the game. Because of that I don't find any reason to hold back.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

But they found Nanjo's corpse right how did they find that again? It should be that Nanjo and Kyrie died near the same general area I think...of course I might be misunderstanding your point as well.

Actually, I may be misremembering, but I don't think Battler ever saw Nanjo's corpse. Eva might have, though.

[chronotrig]

It's never confirmed that Battler sees Nanjo's corpse, but Dlanor does have a point here. If my theory about Battler "witnessing" all scenes first- or secondhand is true, then Eva probably confessed that she murdered Nanjo with magic after seeing his corpse.

However, it never says that they didn't see Kyrie's corpse. Since she was already dead, Battler or Eva might have just thought someone moved it. Also, Kyrie was capable of moving after being mortally wounded (or she couldn't have killed Nanjo), so it's possible she crawled away.

[DarknessLord]

I thought Beatrice's status WAS confirmed
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
She [human Beato] is definitely dead

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Darkness
Nope that doesn't work, she only stated in red those two sentences minus your [human Beato] line. The main point is that Beatrice said "SHE" not "I" I already claimed two Beatos might exist 67 and 86, Beatrice's name can be passed down as we seen multiple times.

Chronotrig
It's hard to see Kyrie living long after receiving a fatal wound, Eva stated in Red someone looked into Nanjo's eyes on two feet and murdered him point blank. If Kyrie was fatally wounded in the stomach then it would be really hard for Kyrie to stand on two feet.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

Chronotrig
It's hard to see Kyrie living long after receiving a fatal wound, Eva stated in Red someone looked into Nanjo's eyes on two feet and murdered him point blank. If Kyrie was fatally wounded in the stomach then it would be really hard for Kyrie to stand on two feet.

If you don't like that one, just say Nanjo shot her again like I've suggested.