Valvrave the Liberator 2 - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by MeggieMay

Mmm, using that logic, Haruto will never forget Shoko so I'm not sure what I think about that .

I always thought that was something of a given. Having a character with memory loss remembering something subconsciously isn't an unusual story trope.

I do think that the writers take on Shoko is probably not the viewers on the boards take. My feeling has been Shoko is suppose to represent the viewers perspective or at least the way the writers think the Japanese target audience is like.

Well, one of the writers was surprised by L-Elf's popularity so that was already one sign that they're not on the same wavelength as the viewers. Still, I've had similar thoughts on the "viewer perception vs. writer perception" before. Basically, I recommend people keeping possibilities open to avoid serious disappointment if their predictions end up horribly off.

That's one of the issues I'm having with the writing - my gut tells me the Japanese viewers may not be getting what the writers are trying to do here any more than thread posters here are. Because of the disconnect I think it's best to assume things really may not go the way people think they are going to go with Shoko. I think her character is a big wild card at the moment and it may end up ticking off all sides of the issue with her on how the resolve it. That is if they even begin to resolve it because we're out of time to really deal with it at this point .

I don't think the disconnect is that great. Or rather I think there are more viewers who are aware of the writers' intent than you think. There have been Shoko critics who fully recognize they're expected to sympathize with her but can't due to the portrayal. I don't think the writers can piss off all sides unless they overdo it on the twists which, I admit, has a real chance of happening.

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I wonder. If they managed to get Thunder out of there, would he be able to regenerate his lower half?

I mean they never really into how far they could regenerate, but it's a thought.

I figured that was the main reason they added the explosion.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by MeggieMay

Mmm, using that logic, Haruto will never forget Shoko so I'm not sure what I think about that .

If you're saying that Haruto loves Shoko as much as L-elf loved Lise, I'm afraid you're mistaken. L-elf was pretty much in proposal territory with Lise, he wasn't afraid to confess to her even though he suspected he would be rejected because he didn't think he was good enough for her. Haruto is really only at girlfriend level, and he STILL has never actually confessed to the girl he loved. Two very different levels here.

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I wonder. If they managed to get Thunder out of there, would he be able to regenerate his lower half?

I mean they never really into how far they could regenerate, but it's a thought.

I think Thunder could have lived if they hadn't had destroyed his mech. His Valvrave, and especially the engine, is destroyed, then he dies with it.

I'm guessing that other than that and complete rune depletion, the kamitsuki are immortal.

[Triple_R]

Excellent post, MaggieMay. Thanks a lot for adding a pretty different and interesting perspective to things.

Originally Posted by MeggieMay

While I'm having problems with the writing for S2 of this show, this is one time the writers are correct by not attempting to kid the audience that Shoko could talk the others into believing her.

I agree, but to be fair, I can kinda see where the harsher Shoko critics are coming from on this specific point.

One of Shoko's main skills, as vividly portrayed at least twice in Season 1, is her ability to influence and motivate these kids in pretty amazing ways.

So I think some people might be thinking "Why can't she do that now? She has the ability to. She did it before, and more than once."

The difference now, though, is that this is a Shoko that knows that, yes, she failed her best friend who's also the man that she loves. I think that has done great damage to her self-confidence and self-esteem. So she's simply not able to muster up the courage and high-spirits needed to speechify her people into wholeheartedly supporting the Valvrave pilots again.

One thing I want to stress here is just how important Haruto is to Shouko. There are a couple scenes in Season 1 where we see a deep understanding between them, a remarkably easy trust. One good example of this is where Shouko instantly went against Satomi, and with Haruto, in Haruto's desire for nobody else to be a Valvrave pilot. Shouko did this basically due to pure faith in Haruto - "If Haruto wants this, then it must be for a good reason" was more or less her explanation of it, IIRC.

I think that in Shouko's own mind, she's kicking herself big time.

'I should have had faith in him! I should have realized that if he kept all of this secret from me, he must have had his reasons for it! And now I know what one of those reasons are - He didn't want me to know that he sacrificed himself for my sake, for much the same reason that I didn't want him to know that he killed my father.'

This is one of the lines of thought that I think was going through Shoko's mind when she kept crying "I'm sorry, Haruto, I'm sorry" in the cockpit of Haruto's Valvrave.


I know I may well be alone on this, but I honestly find this a poignant romance version of a Greek tragedy. During extremely extenuating circumstances, Shoko lost her faith in Haruto, and she shouldn't have, and she knows it. It's understandable that she lost faith, but she could have pulled through. She could have chosen to keep faith in him, as very hard as that may have been. She didn't, and for that one brief moment of weakness, Haruto is now lost to her.

Sad but powerful tragedy. If only she had kept believing in him. If only she had kept trusting her best friend.


That, I think, might be one of the things that the writers are trying to get across here. Right now, what I see with Shoko is "Tragic Heroine". I could be wrong here. She might make a comeback next episode. But given how Haruto is leaking memories fast... and given how him forgetting about Shoko almost entirely would add a final exclamation mark to this tragedy... I think that may well be where the show is going.

As for Shoko not being upset about Marie - that whole fall out was handled so poorly I find people bringing it up a bit odd.

I think that most of the writing issues in Valvrave is due to how they're racing against the clock. This is why there wasn't more time devoted to people showing concern for POW Saki, and why there wasn't more time devoted to people mourning over casualty Marie, and why there hasn't been more time devoted to the fallout between Shouko and Akira.

It's unfortunate, and it's a valid criticism to raise against the show, but it's something that probably needs to be factored in to character evaluations. The characters aren't meant to come off as heartless - Valvrave just doesn't have the time to spare to show characters mourning a lot for lost/captured friends and allies.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

If you're saying that Haruto loves Shoko as much as L-elf loved Lise, I'm afraid you're mistaken. L-elf was pretty much in proposal territory with Lise, he wasn't afraid to confess to her even though he suspected he would be rejected because he didn't think he was good enough for her. Haruto is really only at girlfriend level, and he STILL has never actually confessed to the girl he loved. Two very different levels here.

I don't think this proves they have different levels of love so much as they deal with love differently. The fact that L-elf/Liese never got to even go through the proper trials of a relationship doesn't help any either. I still wouldn't be surprised if the show treats both relationships as equal. Both girls are very important people to the guys regardless of whether or not the relationships amount to anything.

[KleenexGhost]

What about putting them in a state of suspended animation?

[~BC~]

Suspended animation? Why would that be necessary? Would they even have that technology on one of those ships? Though now that I think about it, I'm not sure I'd want Thunder to live through that regeneration process. Yeesh.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I wonder. If they managed to get Thunder out of there, would he be able to regenerate his lower half?

I mean they never really into how far they could regenerate, but it's a thought.

If they could, L-elf should have decapitated the Fuhrer's head. An entire head regenerating is more shocking than a deep cut imho. Also, he should have removed Haruto's leg from the debris in episode Aina dies if the chances of regeneration were high but he didn't.

If the blood from the wound clots before the the regeneration begins the the regenerated limbs would not receive blood from the main body and die either way. Cain could have beheaded Saki instead of piercing her with the sword since like he said, he wants the surprise to be sensational.

Here's how the healing might work. The blood clots depending on the severity of the injury, then the flesh regenerates and forms new tissue thus removing the injury. Due to the time lag it takes for an injury to heal, the clotting phase can be extended or removed entirely. That's my take on it anyway. I wanted to rejoin the thread next week but Kleenex has revived me from the hibernation. -goes back to hibernation.-

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by finalfury

If they could, L-elf should have decapitated the Fuhrer's head. An entire head regenerating is more shocking than a deep cut imho. Also, he should have removed Haruto's leg from the debris in episode Aina dies if the chances of regeneration were high but he didn't.

If the blood from the wound clots before the the regeneration begins the the regenerated limbs would not receive blood from the main body and die either way. Cain could have beheaded Saki instead of piercing her with the sword since like he said, he wants the surprise to be sensational.

Here's how the healing might work. The blood clots depending on the severity of the injury, then the flesh regenerates and forms new tissue thus removing the injury. Due to the time lag it takes for an injury to heal, the clotting phase can be extended or removed entirely. That's my take on it anyway. I wanted to rejoin the thread next week but Kleenex has revived me from the hibernation. -goes back to hibernation.-

Yes. Go back into hibernation. And speculating about Drakengard's timeline

I have spoiled the game for myself. Because the more small bits I saw of it made me want to decipher the damn thing like it's the Da Vinci Code

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Well, one of the writers was surprised by L-Elf's popularity so that was already one sign that they're not on the same wavelength as the viewers. Still, I've had similar thoughts on the "viewer perception vs. writer perception" before. Basically, I recommend people keeping possibilities open to avoid serious disappointment if their predictions end up horribly off.c.

No, that was one of the producers (Iketani/Ikeya) in early episodes because the revelations wouldn't come for second season (and his protagonist for his Seed spin off was basically a L-Elf like character, so he's pretty fond of the type. Even his design is the same). He's the pet character of the two scriptwriters: Ichiro Okouchi's favorite characters to write are L-Elf and Haruto. Meanwhile Jun Kumagai likes writing L-Elf, Akira and Satomi (and it's pretty clear from his episodes he's a Renbōkōji siblings fan) the best, iirc.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Yeah, I have to agree with Triple. This devolved into angry mob territory quite some time ago.

On a random note, it's kind of annoying that medical technology hasn't changed much at all despite presumably taking several hundred god damned years into the future. Shows that take place in the future are really fucking idiotic sometimes. Apparently most fields of science except robotics have stagnated. I'm half expecting to see Akira use a Windows 8 at some point, which will still be the cutting fucking edge of technology 600 years from now.

I guess if the Magius had clone technology then they wouldn't have to jack bodies except to take over governments in secret. Artificial wombs would come in handy for rapidly growing a population for the new empire and future planet colonization. Terraforming technology to go to another planet and say "Screw you, Dorssia and Arus." Organ and limb cloning tech for those vets who lost limbs....

But then the series would have a totally different feel to it. Valvrave pilots would have more options. They wouldn't have to keep fighting and just move on to somewhere else and live.

[Thess]

I forgot, just more trivia. The director's (Matsuo Kou) favorite characters are Saki and L-Elf, while Iketani/Ikeya's favorite is Saki.

[Triple_R]

In addition to what finalfury wrote, L-Elf once stated that he was confident that Haruto would not survive a decapitation.

The Magius-possessed humans and the kamitsuki are very tough and can recover from many things that normal humans can't, but they're not like self-regenerating amorphous blobs. You sever the brain/head from the rest of the body, and they're almost certainly dying.

With that in mind, the Dorssian Fuhrer may in fact get killed for real next episode.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With that in mind, the Dorssian Fuhrer may in fact get killed for real next episode.

L-Elf could demonstrate how to kill them live, that would send a message to the Council.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

L-Elf could demonstrate how to kill them live, that would send a message to the Council.

I am pretty interested/excited to see what L-Elf does next episode, because he has some interesting options given that the Dorssian Fuhrer is completely in his grasp, and the ARUS President is also very vulnerable. It's possible for both to be dead and/or comprehensively blackmailed in the first two minutes of the next episode.

I'm inclined to think he kills "Amadeus", but I think he's more likely to try blackmailing Anderson.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In addition to what finalfury wrote, L-Elf once stated that he was confident that Haruto would not survive a decapitation.

Didn't he also think at one point that shooting them in the head would kill them? I think by this point he's accepted that line of logic won't work regarding the Magius. Runes are a part of everything (not just the brain) so the logic of the "brain being integral to living" no longer works here. Otherwise, Marie never would've gotten back up after that head shot.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I am pretty interested/excited to see what L-Elf does next episode, because he has some interesting options given that the Dorssian Fuhrer is completely in his grasp, and the ARUS President is also very vulnerable. It's possible for both to be dead and/or comprehensively blackmailed in the first two minutes of the next episode.

I'm inclined to think he kills "Amadeus", but I think he's more likely to try blackmailing Anderson.

L-Elf's performance last episode is hard to top, even by himself.

I'm more interested to know what Kriemhild's game plan is. She received L-Elf's call. I would love a Dorssian Royalist forces+VVV+A-drei+X-eins team up against the forces still loyal to the Council.

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Didn't he also think at one point that shooting them in the head would kill them? I think by this point he's accepted that line of logic won't work regarding the Magius. Runes are a part of everything (not just the brain) so the logic of the "brain being integral to living" no longer works here. Otherwise, Marie never would've gotten back up after that head shot.

I think he was wondering if he could survive getting his head blown off, not just shot with a bullet. It was still a theory. Now he can apply his speculation on a live specimen.

[DevilHighDxD]

The best way to kill the Magius is by using them as fuel for the Valvrave, captured them and have these plug that extract runes connected it to the Valvrave. If one Magius dried of runes just plug in another one. This will solve the fuel and killing the Magius with one stone.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

The best way to kill the Magius is by using them as fuel for the Valvrave, captured them and have these plug that extract runes connected it to the Valvrave. If one Magius dried of runes just plug in another one. This will solve the fuel and killing the Magius with one stone.

Haruto would object.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

The best way to kill the Magius is by using them as fuel for the Valvrave, captured them and have these plug that extract runes connected it to the Valvrave. If one Magius dried of runes just plug in another one. This will solve the fuel and killing the Magius with one stone.

true but like thess said haruto would never agree to that, no there is another way to kill a magius and it was shown by thunder this episode, and that is blood loss of the host more specifically losing blood faster than the magius healing factor can regenerate it. i know people are going to argue with me on this but thunder died before unit 3 exploded his death was actaully caused by the amount of blood he lost from have the lower half of his body vaporized by q-vier, it was far to much his body could regenerate with his healing factor and we actually see him die after he gives the nobu line right before his valvrave is blown up

[zerriet]

Seems i went too far with the Shoko argument, to the point where a mod had to step in.......i apologise for the fiasco i caused.

Anyways, Thess, i understand what you said about Shoko, stupidity overload for not believing in Haruto or whatsoever. I understand how people view her from an angle where she becomes incredibly hated.

However, I think the cause of this might be that the character transition might be too drastic. If maybe they had shown Shoko experiencing further turmoil from the influx of information, she would have become more relatable and easier to understand. It might have been also good if it was mentioned that should she release information of the valvraves, it MIGHT still cause the students to panic since it further justifies the whole bakemono issue.

Nevertheless, I still hope that Shoko might be able to redeem herself in the last episode. Not in the sense where she steals the spotlight of the valvrave pilots, But in the sense that she is doing what she can to amend for her mistakes. She deserves to be punished and frowned upon, but in no way is she that horrible of a person to deserve death since she still has room to make up for