2013-10-01, 21:54 | Link #501 | ||||
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2013-10-02, 02:06 | Link #502 | ||||
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The point I was making a few posts ago was that the blogger did not get Alto at all and just swallowed Yasaburo's and Michael's arguments hook, line and sinker. I think I have proven quite extensively that they were wrong in their assertions. Yes, Alto has issues and you can always construe that as someone "running away" from some inner truth. But they are not the issues he gets called out on by others in the series, which is significant, since it shows that people were vastly misreading him even in-universe. The general out-of-universe view of the character just seemed to follow the same misconceptions as those other characters in-universe had (Michael notably changed his opinion later on, although he still misread Alto somewhat in regards to the two girls).
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2013-10-02, 03:12 | Link #503 | ||||
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Alto's "Hero mask" is really is desire to protect Ranka. In reality while Alto does care about her, she's merely an excuse for him. In his mind he's assigned her of the role as the perpetual damsel in distress (a role that she plays excellently) but the whole thing falls apart the moment he tries to become her hero. Alto is actually never able to save Ranka, when Ranka is saved its always someone else's doing, which he takes the credit for. Which isn't something that he isn't too proud of, because its just like saying that he's failing to properly play the role of Ranka's hero. A fake role which acts as a place holder for what Alto really wants to do. Another way of looking at it, is that Yasaburo wasn't calling Alto's desire to protect Frontier fake (since at the time Alto did not consider himself Frontier's protector) Yasaburo was calling Alto's role as Ranka's protector a fake. In fact the story acknowledges that Alto is no longer wearing that mask, when Alto is able to admit to himself that he is really fighting to protect Frontier. Quote:
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2013-10-02, 09:21 | Link #504 | |||||
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Where does Alto admit to ignoring the world around him? Please quote. Quote:
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I'd really appreciate if you guys would stop going through every permutation of what the character did and try to assign the label "running away" to it. There's a place for that term, but not with every action which involves avoidance of something problematic.
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2013-10-02, 12:58 | Link #505 | |||||||
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With Sheryl it is not until he is faced with the idea that he will lose her, or is losing her, does he begin to react. Quote:
To run away means to avoid. |
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2013-10-02, 14:50 | Link #507 |
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Nah, this is just some weird attempt to get me to admit that Alto was always running away. Which is not going to happen, because it's wrong and an extreme distortion of his character arc. Also totally not what I was complaining about in regards to that bloggers very flawed character analysis, but I guess it's a topic which can be won easier, because you can always distort any conflict without a resolution as one side "running away". Very annoying, though.
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2013-10-02, 15:24 | Link #508 | ||||||
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Please be more precise, I really don't feel the need to comb through that whole episode to find the passage you are referring to. Quote:
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Yeah, Alto was affected by Yasaburo coming and trying to get him to drop all what he had built up as his own life, to return to the safe box of being under his fathers thumb. That is what the shows us explicitly, which it without a doubt tells us, when Alto finally gets over his issue of feeling constrained by tradition to heed his fathers wishes, on Gallia IV. Alto asserts his own desires and freedom in that moment, and what I saw in the earlier confrontation with Yasaburo was just him getting upset at his problems with his family, which led him in the past to leave behind his entire past and that Yasaburo was not getting it. Alto is a traditional kind of guy in many senses. Keeping his haircut, keeping that amulet... there are other examples. As such he is affected by someone from his family coming talking to him, even if he deeply disagrees with their wishes. And when I am talking about Altos heroism, I am not talking about him becoming "Frontiers Hero" at some point, I am talking about his very actions of leaping to the defense of persons. Be it now Ranka as more of a cover (although still sincere in his desire to protect her) or the nameless millions of people living on Frontier. That is heroism as we define it, not only the extraordinary deeds he did throughout which won him some fame later on. Quote:
His notice of Sheryl true feelings was earlier in that same episode, as she was desperately trying to get out of bed to give him his present and sing for the Zentradi. As for how he treated with Ranka later on in that advice session... well, that was about the place where I said that their ship crashed, so I agree partially in your assessment. I disagree that it was stock advice, but it was advice which did not take into account her feelings but only what he himself would do in her place. The quality of advice also depends on what the person who receives it makes of it. Alto did not take the process of decision making away from Ranka (actually, "Do as you like" is one of the phrases he often used with her). So, I do disagree on that part, too. I continue to believe that his refusal to clear up where the girls stood with him was rather because he did not want to hurt one, not because he couldn't decide for himself. If that was smart behaviour is another question, though. Quote:
Example: Ranka is running away from her responsibility to Frontier, by abandoning the fleet and going on a suicide mission with Brera. She simply hopes that her problems will go away by making this grand gesture, without much of a plan of the consequences. Counterexample: Alto avoids dealing with the two girls feelings for most of the show, because he fears that choosing one over the other may hurt the non-chosen girl deeply. I think it is clear that he already has chosen Sheryl quite early after Gallia IV (at the latest at episode 17, with the awkward bedroom conversation with Ranka), so he also has to take into account how a deeply hurt Ranka could affect Frontiers chances of survival. That may be reading a bit much into it, but it would make sense from a view of logical progression of thought. Hence, his (for the most part) avoidance of the topic (until Ranka removes herself from the equation) is not "running away", but rather "smart avoidance". The problem here is that you want to apply the "running away" label to all issues of avoidance, and that is just wrong. Also, this has quite mutated from what originally was a question if Yasaburo's and Michael were reading Alto correctly.
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2013-10-02, 18:02 | Link #509 |
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lol what have I have got you guys into
Anyway, what Darth and wisteria said would be my replies, along with understanding your POV but disagreeing with it. As for the first line, yes, yes he is. As far as Frontier goes, Alto has gotten a hell of a lot more hate than the others. I noticed that during the run of the show he was mostly ignored or brought up with regards to the girls, and the same is true now, but add to the batch people who put him in the generic dense harem lead box, or would rather pair up the girls etc. The way people hate Alto just gets under my skin. It might be the loud minority but what I have read over the last year-year and a half wasn't nice. There are people who just don't like him or hate him, and there are those who use him as the scapegoat to blame everything on. Mostly shippers. Ranka hate has died down, from what I can tell. Youtube maybe? IDK, I don't hang around there at all. I think he is very interesting, I am not sorry for my opinion and you might find it surprising but your own passion for defending him over the years also added a lot to how much I love the character today, not that I ever disliked him.
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2013-10-02, 18:08 | Link #510 |
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Thanks for the gentle reply to what were quite intense criticisms from me. I remain skeptical about the Alto hate, but then again I don't follow Frontier fandom outside of this board at all, anymore. So maybe I have missed recent developments.
I am quite sure that my arguments on TV series Alto are well thought-out and that I am right. That doesn't mean that I really am, but so far nobody has managed to bring up better arguments. Movie Alto is another character in many regards, one which I do not regard as nearly as fondly than the original version, but outside of Ranka, that is the case with every character there.
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2013-10-02, 23:15 | Link #511 |
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These arguments always seem to take off while I'm away at work.
For the record, I do not think that running away/avoiding was Alto's motivation for everything. But I do believe that it was a significant factor in his decision making in the series. I've actually struggled quite a bit with interpreting that scene involving Yasaburo in Episode 11. Alto's responses really do feel a bit like he's playing a cliched "rebellious boy who ran away to become a pilot" role. Question is, why? Does he just figure its the easiest way to get out of the situation? Is he instinctively prone to act? Perhaps he's been playing that part for a while already because its a role that gave him a chance to pursue the sky he loves so much? |
2013-10-03, 01:57 | Link #512 | ||
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2013-10-04, 08:20 | Link #513 | ||||||||||||
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And yet Alto never actually confronts his father about it, instead he (putting it in your words) "avoids it". And one must wonder if Alto's attitude was necessary because it seems as though Alto's father was understanding of Alto's desire to leave the stage. What you saw, was your interpretation of what was going on. It should be known that Alto never actually tries to make himself be heard, he never confronts his family, he never talks back to Yasaburo. Even if it makes you upset it is better to confront your problems rather than putting it off for another day, like Alto tends to do. Leaping into danger to save another person doesn't make you a hero, it makes you reckless. In fact the narrative calls Alto out on it multiple times. And again Alto was never really Ranka's hero, she may have thought that he was because he lied to her, but he wasn't. Ranka's hero was Brera. Quote:
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And the only difference in your examples are what the characters are running away from. Quote:
The movies didn't just focus more on Sheryl, they also focused more on Alto and so viewers were able to better see his character arc, which enabled people to appreciate the character. |
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2013-10-04, 10:06 | Link #514 | ||||||||||||||
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How exactly did Brera help with saving Luca and Sheryl when Alto returned from Gallia IV? Please don't make things up. Yasaburo did not only not know the nuances of Alto's life, he had exactly zero ideas of what exactly Alto had been doing lately, aside from being a pilot and fighting. There is, again, no factual basis to your claims. That's generally not how presenting evidence works. Quote:
And Yasaburo's entire premise was false, which makes the rest of his arguments meaningless. Quote:
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2013-10-04, 17:44 | Link #515 | ||||||||||||||||
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Episode 1 in episode one it was realy Gilliam who saved her not Alto, and Alto himself ending up needing to be saved by Ozma. Episode 11 it was Brera who saved both her and Alto. Episode 14 Again Brera. Episode 25 Alto was able to save her but only because of Sheryl's help. Out of all these times Alto only comes clean about not being the one who ultimately saved Ranka once, and that was because Gilliam died to do it. Alto tries to save Ranka because he considers himself her protector, however he has never been the one actually protecting her. And don't even try saying that he was close to saving Ranka in any of those situations, because in each and everyone of those situations Alto was in over his head. Episode 1, the Vajra would have killed him; episode 11 the hydra was about to kill him, and episode 14 he saw the Vajra and became so enraged that he fired his missiles at it point blank and easily could have almost killed Ranka himself if Brera didn't outfly the explosion. Then again in episode 25 he probably would have gone ahead and killed Ranka(purposefully) this time if it wasn't for Sheryl's interference. Quote:
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2013-10-05, 01:48 | Link #516 | |||||||||||||
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Um, no? Avoiding something bad can actually be smart behaviour. In what kind of environment do you live that you cannot see that difference?
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The only time Alto needed to "come clean" was in episode 10 and I already said that I think that at that point he was thinking about protecting her from that weirdo cyborg with the handblade. At that point nobody knew who Brera was, who revealed himself only as of episode 14. And nice try to make it seem like he would have killed Ranka in episode 14. Pure fantasy, but okay. Quote:
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There simply exist family rows too deep to mend easily. Let's not forget that Alto's father also didn't seek out Alto to patch things up. You can of course try to assign "running away" to that, too, but it is not the term commonly used for deep family disfunction. Alto's father cannot accept Alto's decision, Alto cannot allow himself to submit to his father's desires. That seems to be the situation until episode 25, where Alto's father finally relents. Oh, definitely. But that makes those kind of actions nonetheless heroic. Quote:
First off, that scene with Ranka telling Alto that he saved her was in episode two, secondly, he just had saved her from being sucked into outer space and you are being ridiculous if you think that Ranka would have been fine there for more than a few seconds. Third, in episode 15 Ranka should have well known who saved her, since she was concious throughout the whole last episode. If she thinks that Alto saved her, it is because he was part of the rescue mission and, hey, she saw him come in and clear the Vajra queens clock, so there's that. Although if you say that she lost her memory of that moment between episodes 14 and 15, I'd be fine with that, too, because it would support my fan theory why the hell she never told anyone about the Vajra queen singing to her. But that would be something Alto had no idea about and her thanking him for being there for her would seem natural, so no lying from him, either. Man, you really don't remember a lot of the details, huh? Quote:
I'll be happy to put on him that he just went along with leaving that unknown alien organism called Ai-kun with her without asking more questions, though. :-/ Quote:
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His refusal to give in with his father cannot be called a bad decision, since so far as I can see, his father wanted total submission to his demands. That is a place where you simply need to assert yourself as a young person, even if that means breaking off contact to your family. Making a clean break with your past, especially if crops up in places like episode 10, is also sometimes necessary, if you want to make something new for yourself. In your interpretation, which conflates "avoidance" with "running away" completely. Quote:
The end of his character arc actually was there, his problems with his family (actually Ranzo, but Yasaburo is nothing but an extension of Ranzo's will, after all) mended, his open sky there for him, his past accepted, his responsibility for Frontier, too. The only thing not allowed to be finalized was the romance aspect and I think it is pretty clear where that is heading. If you want to talk about an unresolved character arc, look at Ranka. Oh, man, is that a regression of the character. :-/ But I think we all went over that quite a lot of times already.
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2013-10-05, 16:39 | Link #517 |
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I love the word "vocation". Etymologically, it's similar to "voce" (voice). Literally, it's a "calling."
When Sheryl answers Alto's question about the reasons why people choose to sing or fly in episode 5, it's the same idea. Analyze all you want; you don't need a reason to love something. Sometimes, it just calls (sings) out to you. When you're young, it's easy to let your parents define your world. Win their approval, or rebel against them. It's a binary choice. Either way, you're still trapped under in a sky with ceilings and walls. Run towards, or run away. Either way, you're still running. Piloting is something that Alto genuinely wants to do. It's not to give up kabuki to spite his father. It's not to protect Ranka from the Vajra (nor does she want to protected from them). There's a third option. Do neither. Be yourself. Justify nothing. The scene in which Alto sees his father in a wheelchair in episode 23 is an important one, in that he realizes that his dad is just a man. There was never a battle to be won between them. Alto flies because he wants to. He defends Frontier because he wants to. Piloting is his vocation, his calling. He flies, like Sheryl sings... because he was meant to. |
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