Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[raile]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I go to those circles for the pretty Sheryl (and sometimes Alto/Sheryl) fanarts! D'8<
And I always manage to flee without burning my eyes so much of the Michel pinning Alto in--I HIDE NOTHING!

*reads A/S fanfictions*

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by raile

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I go to those circles for the pretty Sheryl (and sometimes Alto/Sheryl) fanarts! D'8<
And I always manage to flee without burning my eyes so much of the Michel pinning Alto in--I HIDE NOTHING!

*reads A/S fanfictions*

YOUR DENIAL IS VERY REVEALING. AND YOU HAVE SUCH HONEST HEART I CAN SEE

Awww, I never knew my dear raile is such a BL fan! B3

[raile]

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

YOUR DENIAL IS VERY REVEALING. AND YOU HAVE SUCH HONEST HEART I CAN SEE

Awww, I never knew my dear raile is such a BL fan! B3

Natsu, my dear....

I HAVE NO HEART!

And so that this won't be off-topic...

Alto/Sheryl FTW.

I am not a BL fan! D'8<

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Sure. I think this was part of the last conversation we had.

Woah, I marvel at the detail of my own argumentation. And your part was excellent. That was a really good discussion, and I think we got as far as we can in hashing out our differences. I only forgot most of it, because it happened 4-5 months ago. ^^

At this moment I rather feel like verbally pounding someone ( no one here specifically, but rather in a more general manner ) into pureé. Must be due to frustration of how Obama is turning out to be a total sell-out to the corporations.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Woah, I marvel at the detail of my own argumentation. And your part was excellent. That was a really good discussion, and I think we got as far as we can in hashing out our differences. I only forgot most of it, because it happened 4-5 months ago. ^^

It really was the best discussion I had on these forums. I imagined that it must of slipped your mind But we really got everything out of the way which is why I'm reluctant to continue

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

It really was the best discussion I had on these forums. I imagined that it must of slipped your mind But we really got everything out of the way which is why I'm reluctant to continue

Yeah, we probably won't come to a consensus any further than what we got there. Ah, well. Different opinions, that is what makes the world great.

[magnuskn]

This essay is in response to a challenge made by Dex and justavisitor a few weeks ago to prove ( with charts if possible ) as to why Ranka has no chance at the end of the series to be with Alto. This does take into account the things which actually happened in the series, were said to be canon by Kawamori and what happened in the light novels and tries to extrapolate a pattern of how the relationship between the three plotted out. I will probably judge it totally inadequate tomorrow, since I finished it at 02:30 a.m. in the morning with bleary eyes.

The essay, sadly, contains no charts.

Beto, this is the best you are going to get as character essays from me, I fear. I hope it still tickles your interest.

--------

This analysis mostly takes into account the latter part of the series ( episodes 11 and forward ), since it was there that the final relationship dynamics were defined. However, the way those dynamics were set up necessitate a short look back at the earlier series.

The set-up for the triangle, lopsided as it was, were the encounter of three distinct persons.

Shy, innocent and sweet Ranka Lee
Aloof, yet intense Alto Saotome
Assertive and vivacious Sheryl Nome

Those were the archetypes presented to us at the beginning of the series. The first ten episodes continued in that mould, setting up the relationships between the three mains.

Ranka was enchanted by the beautiful Alto who saved her from danger, yet not sure what exactly she was feeling for him. She felt in awe of Sheryl, her idol for some time and took Sheryls good advice. While developing her career, it was implied that she felt overshadowed, yet she didn't develop overt antagonism towards her.

Alto seemed to embrace the task of protecting Ranka, yet reluctant to get to know her too personally. His reluctance to enter into her fan-club was very peculiar in that regard. It is difficult to say if this reluctance was due to his aloof personality or lack of interest.
He was combative with Sheryl for most of the ten first episodes, yet seemed very affected by her overt attempts to push past his barriers. His shtick, to be abrasive to avoid people getting too close to him, were battered down time and time again by Sheryl. It was clear that her teasing was bringing him out of the shell he had built up for himself with his other friends.
It should be noted that the only person he showed a part of his private interests was Sheryl, when he took her by his own initiative to the Formo shopping mall.

Sheryl took the role of mentor in her relationship with Ranka. She seemed touched by the shy admiration that Ranka was giving her, yet never abused that trust to establish social dominance ( Of course that social dominance was still obvious to everyone). She respected Ranka enough to ask Alto if he was with Ranka before taking him out on the date in episode five.
Sheryl battered relentlessly against Altos outer defenses to get to know him better. The cause of her early interest was clearly established in episode five, since it was obvious that she had a disdain of sycophants and was intrigued by Altos defensive brashness. It is unclear how early she had made the association of Alto with his famous father, so it is possible that early on she recognized a kindred soul in him. All in all, the factors leading to her interest are numerous, some from happenstance ( her getting trapped on Frontier ) and some from their interaction. In total, they are vastly more complex than Rankas motivations ( Alto being bishi and her getting saved a lot by him ).

--------

The end of episode 10 marks a cut in the build-up, with Ranka realizing that she loves Alto ( although the exact nature of her love is a matter to be discussed further down ) and Sheryl noticing that she couldn't play Alto forever (it was quite noticeable that her kissing him had more of an effect on herself than she had bargained for).

Episode 11 started the relationship dynamics which would define the high-point of the Alto / Ranka relationship, lasting until episode 15. It also changed the mentor / pupil relationship between Sheryl and Ranka into something which could best be described as "friendly rivals". Although both were aware that the other wanted Alto as boyfriend, they never let it affect their relationship as friends.

The change in the relationship between Alto and Ranka was that a.) Alto was forced by Michael to notice Ranka as more than a friend he had to protect and b.) that Ranka actually took action to get a relationship with Alto started.

However it must be noted that those actions, even while mayor, were few. The first was the decision to go to Gallia IV and rescue Alto ( and, incidentally, Sheryl. While it may sound a bit mean-spirited, Ranka wasn't shown as giving a thought to Sheryls well-being ).
The second action was in episode 15, when she "fought back" against Sheryls song-love-attack on Alto. If Ranka had continued to show this evolution towards a more mature and confident person, she might as well have been a real contender for Altos heart.

This was not to be, however, because with episode 16 Ranka began de-voluting into a worse person than she had been at the very beginning of the series. And it was at this point that she lost her chance to end up with Alto.

--------

To put into context why this was the turning point not only for her character development but also for the romance triangle, we once again have to look at the character development up to that point of the other two members of the triangle.

By this point Alto had made peace with Michael and seen that Sheryl was not only teasing him along but did truly care about him ( I maintain that the bedside scene in episode 12 was the exact moment in which he knew that Sheryl was in love with him and fell really in love with her. ). After that point, he left behind most of his antagonizing behaviour towards his friends ( yelling at others or coldly brushing them off ) and began to be a truly better and more mature person.

Sheryl, after her rough start in the first two episodes, was always in an upward trajectory for her character development. Most of that came through our eyes, as we began to know this amazing woman more intimately. But episode 12 to 14 were her also first high-point, because she went the step ahead from being somewhat of a determinator to being truly self-sacrificing. There were several moments in the span of episodes 12 to 15 when she put Altos happiness and Rankas safety ahead of her own feelings and safety.


It can therefore be said with certainty that at the point of episode 15 all three main characters had evolved into better and mature persons from where they had started in episode one.

--------

As I said above, in episode 16 Ranka began regressing in her behaviour. The first obvious hint was letting Grace bulldoze all over her, not protesting more than with a single "meep" when Elmo was thrown away like a used chewing gum.
It is episode 17, however, which ends up being the biggest bucket of ice water for whatever romantic relationship Alto and Ranka were developing. In episode 17, Ranka calls on Alto for some advice about the military use of her music. It would have been the perfect point to fan the embers of the romantic development which happened in episodes 12-15, but to the contrary, there was absolutely no development on the romantic front. Whatever slight tension there was from Alto entering Rankas room through the window, was deliberately dissipated and directly afterwards we got a focus on Rankas room looking like it belonged to a ten-year old girl. And at the end of the episode, we had another reminder by Ozma of her being still a little girl.

How anybody can think that this was not deliberate by the writers is frankly beyond me.

After that, Alto and Ranka did not meet for two entire episodes. The next time they saw each other directly is at the very end of episode 19.

Meanwhile, however, the relationship between Sheryl and Alto got kicked into overdrive in episodes 18 and 19 ( and 16 wasn't too shabby, either ). Both Sheryl and Alto noticeably matured in those two episodes.

While for Sheryl most of it came through her sudden knowledge of being afflicted by the V-Type disease and her looming death, she obviously was willing to sacrifice her last chance at happiness to spare Alto from having to watch her die.

Alto was forced from his complacency through Michaels prodding and his own sense of worry about Sheryl. He abandoned his oath to never return to his families home, shedding another vestige of his prior immaturity.

At the same time, Rankas motivation reached rock bottom. Any development we had seen in regards to her music and motivations was thrown overboard by herself, to make place for a total focus on one sole motivator: Alto-kun. I would say that the contrast between her and the two other main protagonists could not have been more clearer, but there was worse yet to come.

As we all know, the rooftop meeting ended in catastrophe. Frontier got mauled and Michael was dead. However, it should be noted that even in all that chaos there was time for one little romantic scene between Sheryl and Alto. None for Ranka, making the last time anything romantic happened between Alto and Ranka 5 episodes ago.

During the whole ordeal it was very noticeable that of the three mains, two behaved as adults, while one regressed into child-like behaviour. Sheryl and Alto did their level best to help the people they could, while Ranka needed to be prodded into using her talent while her home burned around her.

--------

After the dust settles, Ranka then departed Frontier. Her meeting with Alto at Griffith Park ended up being dramatic, but once again utterly devoid of any romantic reciprocation of Rankas very obvious feelings by Alto.

It once again showed, though, that Ranka utterly failed at reading Altos feelings and motivations, since she seemingly sincerely believed that Alto would take her up on leaving Frontier to go on a wild goose chase-slash-suicide mission, to bring back Ai-kun to his people ( which was the stated mission goal for what Ranka wanted ).

The other interpretation of what happened that night at Griffith Park is more damning, being that Ranka had premeditated her departure with Brera, knew that Alto was unlikely to go with her and just petulantly wanted him go with her to the very people who just killed his best friend, leaving Sheryl and his home behind.

Yet premeditated malice were not shown to be a part of Rankas personality make-up. Immaturity and obliviousness to other peoples motivations, however, were two of her defining traits. So the first interpretation of the scene at Griffith Park was probably the right one.

It should be noted that Ranka departing Frontier in that way, taking herself out of the triangle equation, did have all the symptoms of the writers putting her on a bus. In any case it ended up removing her as an interfering factor in the relationship between Sheryl and Alto.

The relationship between those two came to fruition in the next four episodes, with both sides willing to sacrifice for the other, for Ranka, for their friends and for the people of Frontier.

Also, sex.
Probably much of it, since the V-Type infection didn't seem to be such a forbidding factor as so many people thought.

At the same time Ranka kept stumbling onwards. And while she meant good, her plan was almost suicidal, depending on the application of a power which already had failed her once to catastrophic results. It ends up being pure luck that everything falls into place for her.

--------

To conclude this essay, a last assessment of the development of the characters at the end of series is necessary.


Sheryl overcame her initial self-centeredness to be truly selfless, being willing to sacrifice whatever life-span she still had ahead for the good of Macross Frontier. And she learned that being able to accept the help of others did not mean giving up being self-reliant.

Alto took the leap into adulthood with both feet, getting over his hang-ups with his father, coming to terms with himself over his acting career, evolving his need to protect from Ranka to the whole of Frontier and being willing to commit himself to the protection of Frontier and, last but not least, being at Sheryls side.

At the end of episode 25, Ranka seemingly got rid of all the accumulated baggage of episodes 16 - 24 1/2.
Or did she? When she suddenly developed a backbone and begins fighting back against Grace, it pretty much came from outside sources, those being Alto and Brera. She admirably fought against Over-Grace and helped win the day, but in her case this sudden return to episode 15 levels of perkyness didn't feel earned, since she lacked the development the other two had, for whom both it was shown, in the show, how they matured into the persons they were at the end of episode 25. Ranka seemingly just got a power-boost which restored her personality to pre-devolution levels.

--------

Now, to the conclusion. After the battle, in the now proven absence of Alto getting polygamous in the sound dimension, when Ranka issues her silly challenge to Sheryl, she has no clue of the vast gulf of she would have to bridge, in maturity, in getting to know Alto and in the sheer difference of personality between the two ( Alto and Ranka ) of them.

Not to mention Altos honor and integrity, which would simply not allow him to just ditch Sheryl, even if he were so inclined. Not that he should be, because he and Sheryl grew up. Together. At the end of the series, Ranka has nothing to offer him as a romantic partner.

They are very, very far away from each other in terms of maturity, Alto hasn't shown any inclination for a romantic involvement with Ranka since 10 episodes of shown plot and he has shown, numerous times even, that he cares about Sheryl romantically. Also, sex. Probably lots of it.

So, Sheryl can easily accept that silly challenge, and I think she knows it. Because at the end of that day, she is the one that takes Alto to their mutual home.

[justavisitor]

....I am glad to see my name appear on someone's post, but if my memory serves me right, I don't think that I was the one to set up the challenge ...so I don't think I will get involved lol, unless, of course, if you can find my old post that says that I did set up the challenge, then I will be more happy to comply...but I really think you got it wrong...it wasn't me (I think)

[raile]

@magnus,

Whoa, magnus, I'm very impressed. 8D
You laid out all the good points we've been discussing for months. Great job! *applause*

I say, you should really do a ship manifesto.

[MFSxA]

Very good essay Magnus.

[Foreshadow]

How what it said again? Tl;DR? Jk ♥

Extremely well done Magnus. Cookies for you .

[Mei19]

Damn magnus, you were bottling a lot. XD If you want my honest opinion i think that's a bit bias. You undermined Ranka and her relationship with Alto too much. If Ranka had no chance even after she left, what stopped Alto and Sheryl from being a real couple, ne? Why is there a big trolliangular in front of us? >D Onegai don't ask me to write an essay too because it's a w.o.t to debate about this thing. Think what you will.

BUT y'know I reallllly have this sinking question that's been bottled inside me too. What I've always wanted to know was, is Alto an ADULT OR A MAN?? Ozma pwned him in ep 22 and left him screaming. Which one did Alto truly want to be without causing him grief?? I could say everything ended well and it's 2010 so who cares but me wants an unbiased explanation for that scene.

[darkplataform]

Holy crap, thats a long essay.

I am sure after all this time each one of us have different conclusions but essentially, i can do nothing but agree with your points

Good work again

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Mei19

Damn magnus, you were bottling a lot. XD If you want my honest opinion i think that's a bit bias. You undermined Ranka and her relationship with Alto too much. If Ranka had no chance even after she left, what stopped Alto and Sheryl from being a real couple, ne? Why is there a big trolliangular in front of us? >D Onegai don't ask me to write an essay too because it's a w.o.t to debate about this thing. Think what you will.

BUT y'know I reallllly have this sinking question that's been bottled inside me too. What I've always wanted to know was, is Alto an ADULT OR A MAN?? Ozma pwned him in ep 22 and left him screaming. Which one did Alto truly want to be without causing him grief?? I could say everything ended well and it's 2010 so who cares but me wants an unbiased explanation for that scene.

I'd have to agree with you on this one Mei. Admittedly, even I have overlooked episode 22 and it is a question worth mentioning considering the obvious effect it had on Alto. So I'd have to say that you're asking a legitimate question.

Sorry Magnus but this essay is way too heavy with bias which makes it hard for me to fully agree on everything. But of course, it was a very well thought-out and organized essay to say the least so I commend you for that, but I'm not convinced. I still have to agree to disagree.

[Death Header]

By this point Alto had made peace with Michael and seen that Sheryl was not only teasing him along but did truly care about him ( I maintain that the bedside scene in episode 12 was the exact moment in which he knew that Sheryl was in love with him and fell really in love with her. ). After that point, he left behind most of his antagonizing behaviour towards his friends ( yelling at others or coldly brushing them off ) and began to be a truly better and more mature person.

There was no indication showing that Alto had truly made a choice to get rid of his antagonizing behavior towards his friends; hell, Alto didn't really know what Sheryl liked him until around episode 18 or so. Sure Sheryl showed interest in Alto but that doesn't mean that Alto truly liked her back (Alto realized Sheryl's feelings around episode 23 or so).

And she learned that being able to accept the help of others did not mean giving up being self-reliant.

contradicts itself.

This essay is well written, but as the members above me said, the essay seems to be biased towards Sheryl (assuming that you're a hardcore Sheryl fan, I understand). Also, I Tl;DR'd at half point. Sorry.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

....I am glad to see my name appear on someone's post, but if my memory serves me right, I don't think that I was the one to set up the challenge ...so I don't think I will get involved lol, unless, of course, if you can find my old post that says that I did set up the challenge, then I will be more happy to comply...but I really think you got it wrong...it wasn't me (I think)

Yeah, you are right, it was Dex alone. Sorry, I got confoozled. As I said in the first paragraph of the essay, it was posted at 02:30 a.m. in the morning.

Originally Posted by raile

@magnus,

Whoa, magnus, I'm very impressed. 8D
You laid out all the good points we've been discussing for months. Great job! *applause*

I say, you should really do a ship manifesto.

Thanks, although I think I could have done it better if I had taken more than four hours in the dark of the night to write it. As for the "shipping manifesto", I'd leave that to Tak. He has much more verve than I do for such bombast.

Originally Posted by MFSxA

Very good essay Magnus.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

How what it said again? Tl;DR? Jk ♥

Extremely well done Magnus. Cookies for you .

Originally Posted by darkplataform

Holy crap, thats a long essay.

I am sure after all this time each one of us have different conclusions but essentially, i can do nothing but agree with your points

Good work again

Thanks!.

Originally Posted by Mei19

Damn magnus, you were bottling a lot. XD If you want my honest opinion i think that's a bit bias. You undermined Ranka and her relationship with Alto too much. If Ranka had no chance even after she left, what stopped Alto and Sheryl from being a real couple, ne? Why is there a big trolliangular in front of us? >D Onegai don't ask me to write an essay too because it's a w.o.t to debate about this thing. Think what you will.

Two points. The first one is obvious: Sheryls sickness. While it brought the two of them together, it also brought a distance in the relationship, since both could not enjoy their paramour to the fullest, knowing that their blossoming relationship was soon to end tragically. One could argue that later on the two may have overcome that anxiety, so to say "jump into life at its fullest", but there was of course the impending doom of Frontier to consider...

The second point was that Sheryl thought she knew that Alto really loved Ranka ( see the rooftop scene ), which made her keep her distance more than she probably should have.

Originally Posted by Mei19

BUT y'know I reallllly have this sinking question that's been bottled inside me too. What I've always wanted to know was, is Alto an ADULT OR A MAN?? Ozma pwned him in ep 22 and left him screaming. Which one did Alto truly want to be without causing him grief?? I could say everything ended well and it's 2010 so who cares but me wants an unbiased explanation for that scene. [/FONT][/B]

Adult, in the most extreme case.

In that scene, Ozma represents the "man", or better said the "macho". He doesn't care what the adult decision is, he wants to protect his woman, logic be damned.

Of course it is more complicated than that, since he has the advantage of knowing that if he stays, he will 100% surely be killed by Leon. So it was pretty unfair of him to pose this challenge to Alto, with a wrong explanation to boot.

While Altos scream of frustration indicates that he also had a desire to be hotblooded and go with the Quarter crew, his responsibilities as an adult kept him on Frontier, as protector of Sheryl and Frontiers people. At that moment he didn't knew that Ozma and Cathy were being hunted by Leon, so his obvious frustration at Ozma was not build on a solid foundation.

Further developments bear out that Alto chose to be an adult and was pretty comfortable with that decision. He took on the role of squadron leader, took on the responsibility of protecting Frontier and caring for Sheryl. He also made peace with his family.

Since my essay pretty much says that the difference which makes an romantic involvement impossible between Ranka and Alto is that Sheryl and Alto grew up, while Ranka didn't, I thank you for letting me elaborate the point once more.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I'd have to agree with you on this one Mei. Admittedly, even I have overlooked episode 22 and it is a question worth mentioning considering the obvious effect it had on Alto. So I'd have to say that you're asking a legitimate question.

Answered above.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Sorry Magnus but this essay is way too heavy with bias which makes it hard for me to fully agree on everything. But of course, it was a very well thought-out and organized essay to say the least so I commend you for that, but I'm not convinced. I still have to agree to disagree.

I didn't expect you to change your mind, but I promised an essay and I hope I laid out my point of view succinctly.

Originally Posted by Death Header

There was no indication showing that Alto had truly made a choice to get rid of his antagonizing behavior towards his friends; hell, Alto didn't really know what Sheryl liked him until around episode 18 or so. Sure Sheryl showed interest in Alto but that doesn't mean that Alto truly liked her back (Alto realized Sheryl's feelings around episode 23 or so).

No. Sorry, but this is both demonstrably wrong. IMO, Alto clearly realized Sheryls feelings already in episode 12, during the bedside scene. That he chose not to act on that until episode 21 is another discussion.

And there are clear breaks in Altos behaviour towards his friends. One occurs in episode nine, when Alto makes peace with Michael. The other one is episode 12, when he notices that Sheryls feelings are for real and not just teasing. After those two episodes his antagonism subsides into a few minor arguments, but his behaviour gets dramatically, noticeably more gentle and curteous.

Originally Posted by Death Header

contradicts itself.

No, it doesn't. You can both be self-reliant in most situations, but able to accept help from others when in crisis. Sheryl learned that lesson, which was one of the ways she matured in the series.

Originally Posted by Death Header

This essay is well written, but as the members above me said, the essay seems to be biased towards Sheryl (assuming that you're a hardcore Sheryl fan, I understand). Also, I Tl;DR'd at half point. Sorry.

Of course it is biased towards Sheryl, I am a huge fan of her character. Doesn't mean that what I wrote about Ranka is wrong. The whole point was to prove how there is that vast gulf at the end between her and the other two mains in maturity, which prevents her from being a serious contender in a further triangle at the end.

The show tried to wave a magic wand at the end to jump her ahead to be nearer to the two, but that failed. There was no build-up, no character development which could explain how Ranka suddenly should have grown up to the point where Sheryl and Alto were. And since there was no foundation on which to build, her portrayal at the end doesn't hold water.

[BetoJR]

Well, that was a nice essay. And even nicer counter-arguments. Cannot wait to see how this ends up in the second movie...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, that was a nice essay. And even nicer counter-arguments. Cannot wait to see how this ends up in the second movie...

I'd prefer OVAs to the movie conclusion, since the movies are a different continuity. But thanks for the praise!

[raile]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The show tried to wave a magic wand at the end to jump her ahead to be nearer to the two, but that failed. There was no build-up, no character development which could explain how Ranka suddenly should have grown up to the point where Sheryl and Alto were. And since there was no foundation on which to build, her portrayal at the end doesn't hold water.

God. This.
I've been looking for words like these.
This is precisely the reason why I could never take Ranka's "development" seriously.

It's a shame I can't give you cookies right now.

Some other time!

[BetoJR]

Oh well, my oven is finally back in the clear, so it's cookies all around.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'd prefer OVAs to the movie conclusion, since the movies are a different continuity. But thanks for the praise!

Hell, I'd settle for anything more, at this point.