2012-03-28, 15:08 | Link #5241 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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This is a quirk of Japanese, which distinguishes between "animate existence" and "inanimate existence" with two different verbs. Quote:
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2012-03-28, 15:37 | Link #5242 | |
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2012-03-28, 16:05 | Link #5243 | ||
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How did he commit suicide? he didn't have too much time to switch with Battler, hide and then commit suicide, before Erika came back from the bath room! A Winchester gun would be too loud and any method that would make him lose blood could give away his position and suffocating would proably take too long. Quote:
Also Erika's red truth was about being the "18th" human, a positional number, while Battler's and Beato's red truth was about "17" people, which is a quantitive number. And unlike Beato's red truths about the number, this is a specific number and not an upper limit! [Regardless, who wins this, it was a nice fight until now. I wish such fights would happen more frequently^^] |
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2012-03-28, 16:43 | Link #5244 | |||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Also, I made a mistake in my last post. Although Japanese does distinguish animate and inanimate existence, the red truth in this case didn't use either of those verbs, but a third one that can be used for both. The blue truth is still valid, though, just not linguistically motivated. Quote:
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(Well, unless you count personalities as "humans". There was a scene in EP4 where Shannon and Kanon called themselves humans, so it's not like there's no precedent. Still, this is a non-Shkannon theory, so I'll ignore it for now.) See if you can dig up my old Kinzotrice posts in the Spoilers thread. I bet you'd get a kick out of those.
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2012-03-28, 17:18 | Link #5245 | ||
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That way Erika can be the '18th human' at any time. As there have been no clues for other human bodies/corpses, they are forbidden to exist. 18 human bodies exist on Rokkenjima and as she is the last one who "joined them", she cannot be "someone else" or a "personality"! I'll take a look if i got time. |
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2012-04-13, 12:53 | Link #5246 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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From the Spoiler thread...
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...wait a second. The definition of what constitutes a "room" is arbitrary. When Battler referred to "the cousins' room" he referred not only to the actual cousins' room, but to the cousins' room and the entire universe except those rooms which had already been defined (the six victim rooms, the next room over). At the time of the sealings, Kanon's location was "somewhere in the universe that isn't one of the predetermined rooms," thus he counted as being in "the cousins' room" yet was not actually in the room itself and thus could move around without breaking any window or door seals. Battler acknowledged that "The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE." Erika constructed the seal on "the cousins' room" from the outside of the physical room. Ergo, either the room was not a closed room (had a hole in the wall) or Erika's position at the time she constructed the seals was part of "the cousins' room." As she was not in one of the predefined rooms at the time of the sealing, I posit that the latter was the case and Erika and Kanon were both "in the cousins' room" but not in the cousins' room. Both were free to leave the room and enter any of the other predefined rooms so long as it was acknowledged that some seal was broken to do so; as Erika deliberately reconstructed a broken seal after the fact in Battler's room, this condition is indeed met and transfer between the two rooms is possible. EDIT: Wait no, I can do one better: "The cousins' room" encompasses the entire universe and all rooms previously mentioned. I'm pretty sure this doesn't violate any reds, implied or specific. Battler was in his room and "the cousins' room." The five people in "the next room over" were in the next room over and "the cousins' room." The cousins' room is the universe itself, and Erika sealed it perfectly, such that no one entered or left the universe during this time. EDIT EDIT: Lest someone commit the exclusionary fallacy, I can demonstrate that these statements are entirely logically consistent with an abstract example using numbers. Consider the following statements: The set of {1,2,3,5,7, ... n} are "prime numbers." The set of {2,4,6,8,10, ... x} are "even numbers." I acknowledge that "all other numbers" are "numbers." Obviously, I am not excluding prime numbers and even numbers from the definition of numbers merely because "all other numbers" are being defined as numbers (as this would make only non-prime odd numbers numbers, which is not true). Replace the first set with the names of the people in the next room over and "primes" with "the next room over." Replace the second set with the victims and "evens" with their room definitions. "All other numbers" swaps for "everyone else" and "numbers" for "the cousins' room." Clearly, we can easily determine that Shannon is in the cousins' room is, or could be, a true statement, if "the cousins' room" is read to define everywhere that exists including the subset "the next room over" into which Shannon is subdefined, in the exact same way we could say that 17 is a number even though it's not part of "all other numbers" (it's a prime), because it's still a number. Logic error, meet formal logic.
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Last edited by Renall; 2012-04-13 at 13:27. |
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2012-04-13, 14:09 | Link #5247 | |
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2012-04-13, 14:09 | Link #5248 |
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oh there was a victim in the next room over? I mean "2" is in both sets
Ok... well nice theory, really! Battler would be ashamed for "only" coming up with small bombs, or a "hidden mechanism that enables high towers to rise in the rose garden", however i take the red sword out and say: There has been NO clues that the universe is inside a room, therefore by "the name of god", I FORBID you to use that argument. "DIE THE DEATH! SENTENCED TO DEATH! THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH!" well that's it... oh i was just citing the last part. And this behaviour is because in this thread i am used to this. (see blue/red/black walls of text above) Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-04-13 at 14:19. |
2012-04-13, 14:21 | Link #5249 | |
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It is possible that, had Erika asked for a more specific subdivision of other rooms and a more concrete description of what they contain, Battler would have been forced to compartmentalize "the cousins' room." But because Erika never asked, he's free to define "the cousins' room" arbitrarily as any space he wishes, so long as it can be sealed by Erika's fiat seals! Clues are not necessary; the definition of "the cousins' room" was never asked for, and prior narrative precedent makes it specifically clear that Erika had to ask in order to be sure! Moreover, it was not addressed how Erika could make "the cousins' room" a closed room unless she was inside it! If "the cousins' room" is an inclusionary substitution for the entire universe, it is possible for her to have sealed it while remaining inside! In fact, "the universe" - or some arbitrarily-sized segment of the universe larger than the room itself and at least encompassing the hallway - is the only definition of a "closed room" that can be permitted to describe "the cousins' room!" A neverending seal of duct tape envelops the entirety of creation! Nothing may enter or leave the universe so long as this seal is in place! "God" transcends the universe! "God" is separate and distinct from the universe! Because "God" is sealed outside the closed room, he cannot interfere! The name of "God" cannot touch this argument!
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Last edited by Renall; 2012-04-13 at 14:33. |
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2012-04-13, 14:55 | Link #5250 |
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Can you define where "universe" starts and where it ends? If you can't, then your argument is invalid, because a blue truth must contain all specifics of a theory and not just parts of it.
Also a room of unknown size is a "hard to understand device". Well considering this I could even say that it's impossible for it to exist, even with an explanation... EDIT: The power of the seal IS "God", so if you exclude "God", then no closed rooms even exist. Or in other words: You break the rules. But as a player of this game you accepted the rules. If you break them now, you'll be banished from the game. |
2012-04-13, 14:56 | Link #5251 |
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I'm going to confuse this debate even further by adding that "room" can refer to the people in it (ie: the whole room did "x") and has a figurative sense as well (ie: there is no room for such arguments in this conversation).
Furthermore, considering that Umineko itself brought foward the idea that furniture = people or the other way around, then saying that "the bed is in the room", you can't be sure that bed doesn't refer to a person a la Kanon. But really the use of such arguments (at least seriously) is usually rewarded by the words "smartass". Edit: Okay now I can't get out of my head the idea/image of Erika duck taping everyone. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-04-13 at 15:17. |
2012-04-13, 20:00 | Link #5254 |
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"entire universe" is like saying "the number of master keys is unknown", because no one actually knows how big the universe really is, right? And the later was confirmed to not work as blue truth, which must instead be "there are acutally 6 master keys".
But you know what? I don't care anymore, because I am not the game master. If I was allowed to make specific red truths, then I could easily refute all theories of Renall, UsagiTenpura and LyricalAura... well since that is not the case i tried the same as Erika tried in Kinzo's study in EP5... But as we all know, if we are not GIVEN the necessary red truths, then it's impossible to deny these theories (just as it was with Dlanor's "The window was closed the whole time", which was probably blocked by Lambda, but which on the other hand also has no basis...) So make as many theories as you want... i won't stop you anymore... it was fun though^^ |
2012-04-14, 07:15 | Link #5257 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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There's nothing magical by referring to the universe by the name "the cousins' room". It's just redefining a phrase, which has already been shown to be allowable by Umineko's rules (hence how Beatrice can redefine 'insant death' as 'they were unable to perform any action between the time they received their fatal wound and the time they died', even though they didn't actually die the instant they were attacked).
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