[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[GreyZone]

If you manage to solve the riddles in EP6 (escpacially the last two ones), then you should be able to figure out the rest of EP1-6 out by yourself, because then everything starts to somehow make sense. But sadly, sometimes the story requires too much supense of disebelief, which can cause some people to not "find the answer" even by EP6. But it would certainly surprise me if there is still someone who doesn't figure it out after finishing EP7.

So actually, no, you are wrong. You could say that EP7 "hands out" the answer directly, so if you really want to figure out the murders by yourself, then you should do it now, directly after EP6 and its tea parties. (Of course you can reread older episodes, as that will not be something new for you and maybe you will see something that you overlooked the first time)

[AuraTwilight]

To expand on what Greyzone said, you need to answer the following:

What does it mean for the statement "Even if you join us, there's still only 17 people"? Erika is not an 18th person at all.

If you can solve this riddle, you have the key to every mystery on the previous gameboards.

[Funyarinpa]

Thanks for your replies.

I guess one of my problems is that I don't really get what I'm supposed to consider a solvable mystery, a hint or just an illusion. I mean I have the mentioned "true" PoV, but it doesn't apply in Chiru anyway.
I'm really bad at this stuff, so I'm kinda scared I wont solve it entirely since there are so many small things that seem out of place.

In regards to the 17 people-thing, I thought about that a lot, but couldn't come up with a logical explanation....

Spoiler for 17 people:

It only applies to the sixth game, right? And Kinzo doesn't count because he died before the game started if I recall correctly?

In that case, we'd have
1. Krauss
2. Natsuhi
3. Jessica
4. Eva
5. Hideyoshi
6. George
7. Rudolf
8. Kyrie
9. Battler
10. Rosa
11. Maria
12. Nanjo
13. Erika
14. Genji
15. Shannon
16. Kanon
17. Gohda
18. Kumasawa

Now how am I supposed to interpret that statement Battler and Beato made?
I couldn't really come up with anything that sounded reasonable enough.

Didn't Erika pretty much prove with red that there were 18 people on the island when she checked if everyone was in their room? Well, I guess she only said "everyone" and not a specific number for the "room next door".

Was that scene with Furfur and Zepar a hint to that?
If furniture only counts as half a human, one crappy theory would be Shannon and Kanon being one person. I'd probably have to check if someone saw them both at the same time, but I doubt this is the solution. Besides, wouldn't that make him/her bisexual? Yeh, like I said, probably not right.

But since Genji considers himself furniture as well, couldn't there been something with him as well?

[AuraTwilight]

I guess one of my problems is that I don't really get what I'm supposed to consider a solvable mystery, a hint or just an illusion. I mean I have the mentioned "true" PoV, but it doesn't apply in Chiru anyway.
I'm really bad at this stuff, so I'm kinda scared I wont solve it entirely since there are so many small things that seem out of place.

Let me put it this way. You're supposed to figure out who the culprit is, how the culprit did everything, and what motivated them. While a lot of scenes aren't factually reliable, they do have a truth of a sort, and have SYMBOLIC meaning. For instance, take the scene in episode 2 where Kanon reveals his magic sword to protect Jessica from Beatrice, and he said "I didn't want to show you this." Remove the magical context; he may not have had this literal conversation ,but what if there was something else he didn't want her to see?

If furniture only counts as half a human, one crappy theory would be Shannon and Kanon being one person. I'd probably have to check if someone saw them both at the same time, but I doubt this is the solution. Besides, wouldn't that make him/her bisexual? Yeh, like I said, probably not right.

What's wrong with being bisexual? :P

But to continue this thought, what if they ARE one person? the two of them, and Beatrice, are described as holding pieces of the same soul, and Zepar and Furfur said that their love is as wrong as a man loving two women...and also that only one of them can have their love fulfilled. If Shannon wins, Kanon disappears, and vice versa.

What if it IS true? Go back with this idea and compare it with all the data and mysteries and symbolic scenes, and see what you come up with.

But since Genji considers himself furniture as well, couldn't there been something with him as well?

He only claims this in the magic scenes of EP2, so it's not as consistent, but consider how furniture is defined by Zepar and Furfur. They essentially define furniture as "someone who cannot love."

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Thanks for your replies.

I guess one of my problems is that I don't really get what I'm supposed to consider a solvable mystery, a hint or just an illusion. I mean I have the mentioned "true" PoV, but it doesn't apply in Chiru anyway.
I'm really bad at this stuff, so I'm kinda scared I wont solve it entirely since there are so many small things that seem out of place.

In regards to the 17 people-thing, I thought about that a lot, but couldn't come up with a logical explanation....

Spoiler for 17 people:

It only applies to the sixth game, right? And Kinzo doesn't count because he died before the game started if I recall correctly?

In that case, we'd have
1. Krauss
2. Natsuhi
3. Jessica
4. Eva
5. Hideyoshi
6. George
7. Rudolf
8. Kyrie
9. Battler
10. Rosa
11. Maria
12. Nanjo
13. Erika
14. Genji
15. Shannon
16. Kanon
17. Gohda
18. Kumasawa

Now how am I supposed to interpret that statement Battler and Beato made?
I couldn't really come up with anything that sounded reasonable enough.

Didn't Erika pretty much prove with red that there were 18 people on the island when she checked if everyone was in their room? Well, I guess she only said "everyone" and not a specific number for the "room next door".

Was that scene with Furfur and Zepar a hint to that?
If furniture only counts as half a human, one crappy theory would be Shannon and Kanon being one person. I'd probably have to check if someone saw them both at the same time, but I doubt this is the solution. Besides, wouldn't that make him/her bisexual? Yeh, like I said, probably not right.

But since Genji considers himself furniture as well, couldn't there been something with him as well?

Erika didn't check both rooms. She made Battler say who exactly was in one room and then made him say that in the other one there was "everyone else". But she never looked into the room with "everyone else", so she does not know exactly, who is inside. Also a little thing that I better clear up: Erika and Battler are excluded from "everyone else". This was an open end that the author probably forgot to close, but don't bother about it.

And I repeat what I wrote earlier: The solution requires a lot of suspension of disbelief, so open your mind even to the most absurd solution. Not only regarding who the culprit is, but also when it comes to finding out about who or what killed Battler at the end of EP4.

I also agree with everything that AuraTwilight just wrote.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

And I repeat what I wrote earlier: The solution requires a lot of suspension of disbelief, so open your mind even to the most absurd solution.

Well, let's not go overboard...

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, let's not go overboard...

Well that was the 2nd reason why I added Erika and Battler are excluded from "everyone else", as that funny alternative needs that loop hole that R07 accidently left there.

[Funyarinpa]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Let me put it this way. You're supposed to figure out who the culprit is, how the culprit did everything, and what motivated them. While a lot of scenes aren't factually reliable, they do have a truth of a sort, and have SYMBOLIC meaning. For instance, take the scene in episode 2 where Kanon reveals his magic sword to protect Jessica from Beatrice, and he said "I didn't want to show you this." Remove the magical context; he may not have had this literal conversation ,but what if there was something else he didn't want her to see?

Yeah, I guess that's what Erika was saying as well. I can't think of anything though. Who would be able to carry out the crimes? Without having spent that much time on this question, the culprit would have to have at least one or two accomplices to move the corpses around or kill several people in a single room, stuff like that. I also don't know if the culprit is the same for every game, aren't they just tales written by the gamemaster? He or she could change the culprit at will if he / she wanted to, but if this was the case almost everyone would have to have a motive so you can set it up in a solvable way (which makes me kind of question what the gameboards are, are they really in the "real world"? If they are kakera, that'd make each of them a world in its own, right?)
But this is something I don't know enough about, more important is that I can't think of any good motives for the "why dunnit" either. Greed? Everyone had financial problems, but no one ever survives except for Eva, who turns into a complete wrack although (or because) she had lots of money but lost her family.
Kyrie could have some revenge-thing going on if she really hates Battler that much, but performing this massacre just because of him? She already has Rudolf for herself, and she also dies early on in several games.
"Mad Kinzo trying to revive Beatrice" doesn't make any sense since he is dead (btw, now that I think about it, when did the beginning of EP1 take place?
Eh, probably not that important. Could be that it didn't even happen.).
I wont even get started about the "how" since each twilight probably requires using some twisted logic of abusing reds, playing dead, hiding somewhere etc.


About the scene from EP2, I just reread it, but again: 2 dumb 4 Umineko.

I did some small, crappy notes while reading:
"First 'elder beato' (hair not open), then 'classic beato'
Beato: >>if you keep acting human, you both will die (kanon + jessica)<<
Kanon vs Goat like a battle of chess = coming from behind -> check + seven moves -> mate
lust -> jessica in back, wrath -> kanon in stomach"

So yeah... nothing really helpful now that I look back at them.
I guess the fact that Beato has different clothes is kind of suspicious, but what am I supposed to make out of that?

The quote could be important, under what circumstances would "acting human" hurt someone?

The rest seems to be pretty useless, "chess" was probably just a random, good-sounding comparison and the number seven could be the amount of strikes it took to take the goat out (well, at least supposedly).
What could that thing Kanon had to show Jessica be? The notes said the "loci" could also be translated as trace, track and pronounced as "miracle". Would a miracle be something you don't want to happen? I don't think so, so that's probably just some trivial information or applies in another scene.

Maybe it was a blood-stained knife considering the first twilight just happened and people got their stomaches cut open?
Or is it something not material?

I really don't know....

What's wrong with being bisexual? :P

Hahah, nothing of course. It's just that love always gets portrayed in a really "traditional" way in Umineko and they always talk about how wife and husband should treat each other in a relationship (in, again, a really traditional and old-fashioned way). Homo- or bisexuality just isn't present in the story while traditional pairings are always being talked of.

Then again, "Furfur and Zepar are of a different gender" and both are after boys, sooo....

But to continue this thought, what if they ARE one person? the two of them, and Beatrice, are described as holding pieces of the same soul, and Zepar and Furfur said that their love is as wrong as a man loving two women...and also that only one of them can have their love fulfilled. If Shannon wins, Kanon disappears, and vice versa.

What if it IS true? Go back with this idea and compare it with all the data and mysteries and symbolic scenes, and see what you come up with.

Hmh, I'll try to flesh this theory out some more, but how could that even work out? Battler had contact with both Kanon and Shannon. It's kind of suspicious that they aren't seen together all that often when the Ushiromiyas are nearby, but it DID happen, and they both have their existence confirmed in red.
Maybe they're not literally the same person but just hinder each other somehow?
That's way too vague though and doesn't explain anything.

He only claims this in the magic scenes of EP2, so it's not as consistent, but consider how furniture is defined by Zepar and Furfur. They essentially define furniture as "someone who cannot love."

Huh... I'll keep that in mind, seems important. I never really thought about that furniture-stuff all that much, just regarded them as servants who put their services above anything else so they are basically "furniture", serving other people.
"Magic" has it's own definition as well, so there's that.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Erika didn't check both rooms. She made Battler say who exactly was in one room and then made him say that in the other one there was "everyone else". But she never looked into the room with "everyone else", so she does not know exactly, who is inside. Also a little thing that I better clear up: Erika and Battler are excluded from "everyone else". This was an open end that the author probably forgot to close, but don't bother about it.

Why wouldn't she check that in more detail?
I guess that opens up several possibilities... Gotta recheck who went into which room. Thinking about it, there are a lot of small things concerning previous closed rooms I want to check. Is there a site that has summaries for those, or things like episode notes? It'd be a bit tedious to go through everything again, even if there is that witchcraft-spell.

And I repeat what I wrote earlier: The solution requires a lot of suspension of disbelief, so open your mind even to the most absurd solution. Not only regarding who the culprit is, but also when it comes to finding out about who or what killed Battler at the end of EP4.

Well, that's kind of worrisome lol. At least now I know I shouldn't throw theories away immediately if they don't sound all that reasonable.


What's that video, is that fanmade?

[Renall]

Of course it is. Ryukishi's solution wouldn't be that stupid.

(also it's in English, uses a different resolution, has closeups he doesn't use, and also I made it so I know it's fake)

[GreyZone]

I don't have a log for you, but maybe this list of all red truths in EP6 will help you. I don't want to color them all correctly, so just keep in mind that everything that is NOT inside brackets, is red truth.

Spoiler for Red Truths for 'Dawn of the golden Witch':

that Beatrice will never revive again.
I was born for Father's sake.
This story really happened!!
They had no such tricks in them!! It was just an ordinary table and an ordinary cup!!
Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!
[Request: 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'] Acknowledged. [Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms.]
[Request: 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged. [However, I won't deny the kinds of interference that you'd expect from a normal room, such as knocks, voices, and the extension telephone line.]
[Request: 'At the time of the deconstruction of the closed rooms, none existed within the rooms except the VICTIMS (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Battler)'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'After the deconstruction of the closed rooms, then excluding me, only Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda entered the rooms'.] Acknowledged. [However, this only applies to the current point in time. It's possible that some later development in the game will cause more people to enter.]
Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda...were not involved in the murders of Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.
[Request: 'the victims did not die by any method other than HOMICIDE'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
I swear that I am impartial in my judgments.
Ushiromiya Battler is not on the bed.
Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room.
Except for one location, there is no one to be seen in the BEDROOM.
No one was seen in the BATHROOM.
[Now we've confirmed that,] except for one location, Battler does not exist in any place inside the guest room.
Ushiromiya Battler does not exist within the guest room. ......There are no exceptions, including the closet.
[This occurs back in the very beginning, right after I broke the seals and entered this room.] At that time, I immediately closed the door, reset the chain, and sealed this room.
Erika repaired the chain lock.
Erika used that duct tape to join the two cut ends of the chain together, 'sealing' them. In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside.
The use of the duct tape wasn't limited by the number of strips, right? It was by the number of rooms. ......The only restriction was to limit it to only three rooms. ......Erika chose this guest room to be one of those rooms. So, Erika has the right to seal as many places as many times as she wants within this room.
I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.
Battler does not exist within the guest room.
The lock caused by the chain is intact.
Ushiromiya Kyrie...cannot save Battler.
Ushiromya Natsuhi cannot save Battler.
Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler.
USELESS. Rosa and Maria can't save him EITHER. ......DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH <Die the death>! <Sentence to death>! <Great equalizer is the death>!!
Knox's 7th. .........It is...forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
[So, I dashed all over the mansion, visited all the crime scenes, and......] I re-killed all of them.
[The manner in which they were each killed differed, ......but afterwards,] she completely severed the heads of all those she killed.
All five people I killed......were very much alive until the moment I killed them. [......Everyone faithfully played dead as best they could until the moment just before I killed them, okay?]
Please, allow me to speak. Know that neither is broken. (This and two truths below were said while referring to the seals on the cousins' room and the next room over doors).
Know that an unbroken seal proves that there are still none who have entered or exited.
It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!
this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.
IMPOSSIBLE. The seals on the windows were also INTACT. Of course, this is at the time of the logic ERROR. (This refers to the cousins' room windows.)
Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.
Know that there can be no obligation to provide an answer to this blue truth...!
The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon.
Battler and Kanon are different people.
The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.
It is true that the next room over was sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the doors were checked to see whether the seals were preserved.
At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!
At the time Battler was rescued, only Kanon entered the guest room.
[Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.'] I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.
[Request: 'This refers to three people.'] I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
[Request: 'I am not the rescuer.'] Of course! You are the detective, are you not? Don't worry, I will respect that!
'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not.
[Request: 'The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'The word guest room includes all of the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.'] I acknowledge it.
[Confirming definition. The inside of the guest room is divided into three sections: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.] I also recognize it as such. Furthermore, you have already confirmed with the red truth that two of those sections, the bedroom and the bathroom, had no one hiding in them.
The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room. Furthermore, the chain lock was set at the same time I entered the room. No one could have left the room during the few seconds between the time I entered and the time I set the chain lock.
The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined, so until I came again and broke the seals, it was absolutely impossible for anyone to go in or out. Therefore, when I entered the room, it is certain that Battler was hiding somewhere inside the guest room.
The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom.
Kanon does not exist in the bedroom.
Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom.
Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.

[AuraTwilight]

Hahah, nothing of course. It's just that love always gets portrayed in a really "traditional" way in Umineko and they always talk about how wife and husband should treat each other in a relationship (in, again, a really traditional and old-fashioned way). Homo- or bisexuality just isn't present in the story while traditional pairings are always being talked of.

Then again, "Furfur and Zepar are of a different gender" and both are after boys, sooo....

Bear in mind that sex and gender are two different things. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, this person could be a transgender who believes in traditional gender roles, willing to be the husband/wife as appropriate.

Hmh, I'll try to flesh this theory out some more, but how could that even work out? Battler had contact with both Kanon and Shannon. It's kind of suspicious that they aren't seen together all that often when the Ushiromiyas are nearby, but it DID happen, and they both have their existence confirmed in red.
Maybe they're not literally the same person but just hinder each other somehow?
That's way too vague though and doesn't explain anything.

Battler never met them at the same time and that's what matters; Erika has the same issue when it matters, does she not?

As for the reds, examine them more closely. Bear in mind that figures having multiple names and passing around names is raised as a possibility, as has multiple personalities.

Huh... I'll keep that in mind, seems important. I never really thought about that furniture-stuff all that much, just regarded them as servants who put their services above anything else so they are basically "furniture", serving other people.
"Magic" has it's own definition as well, so there's that.

Then you missed something important. Shannon and Kanon have this complex that no other servants do, and they treat themselves as literally subhuman and are the only humans on the gameboard who are also fantasy characters and demonstrate knowledge of other games the way Beatrice and her demons do.

Shannon and Kanon consider themselves furniture and say furniture doesn't get to have dreams, love, or a future. But it's not like they're SLAVES. Shit, they're supposed to 'graduate' after a few years and pursue successful careers. Not only do they both feel like this isn't an option for them, but Shannon's been there for ten years and that's not normal. That and they're the only servants with the One-Winged Eagle besides Genji, the only other servant to call himself furniture under any context.

Shannon and Kanon are not normal. Add that they're the only people on the island that could see Beatrice before Shannon broke the mirror.

[Funyarinpa]

Originally Posted by Renall

Of course it is. Ryukishi's solution wouldn't be that stupid.

(also it's in English, uses a different resolution, has closeups he doesn't use, and also I made it so I know it's fake)

Oh, lol. Was really well made though, pretty cool.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I don't have a log for you, but maybe this list of all red truths in EP6 will help you. I don't want to color them all correctly, so just keep in mind that everything that is NOT inside brackets, is red truth.

Spoiler for Red Truths for 'Dawn of the golden Witch':

that Beatrice will never revive again.
I was born for Father's sake.
This story really happened!!
They had no such tricks in them!! It was just an ordinary table and an ordinary cup!!
Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!
[Request: 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'] Acknowledged. [Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms.]
[Request: 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged. [However, I won't deny the kinds of interference that you'd expect from a normal room, such as knocks, voices, and the extension telephone line.]
[Request: 'At the time of the deconstruction of the closed rooms, none existed within the rooms except the VICTIMS (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Battler)'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'After the deconstruction of the closed rooms, then excluding me, only Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda entered the rooms'.] Acknowledged. [However, this only applies to the current point in time. It's possible that some later development in the game will cause more people to enter.]
Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda...were not involved in the murders of Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.
[Request: 'the victims did not die by any method other than HOMICIDE'.] Acknowledged.
[Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
I swear that I am impartial in my judgments.
Ushiromiya Battler is not on the bed.
Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room.
Except for one location, there is no one to be seen in the BEDROOM.
No one was seen in the BATHROOM.
[Now we've confirmed that,] except for one location, Battler does not exist in any place inside the guest room.
Ushiromiya Battler does not exist within the guest room. ......There are no exceptions, including the closet.
[This occurs back in the very beginning, right after I broke the seals and entered this room.] At that time, I immediately closed the door, reset the chain, and sealed this room.
Erika repaired the chain lock.
Erika used that duct tape to join the two cut ends of the chain together, 'sealing' them. In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside.
The use of the duct tape wasn't limited by the number of strips, right? It was by the number of rooms. ......The only restriction was to limit it to only three rooms. ......Erika chose this guest room to be one of those rooms. So, Erika has the right to seal as many places as many times as she wants within this room.
I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.
Battler does not exist within the guest room.
The lock caused by the chain is intact.
Ushiromiya Kyrie...cannot save Battler.
Ushiromya Natsuhi cannot save Battler.
Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler.
USELESS. Rosa and Maria can't save him EITHER. ......DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH <Die the death>! <Sentence to death>! <Great equalizer is the death>!!
Knox's 7th. .........It is...forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
[So, I dashed all over the mansion, visited all the crime scenes, and......] I re-killed all of them.
[The manner in which they were each killed differed, ......but afterwards,] she completely severed the heads of all those she killed.
All five people I killed......were very much alive until the moment I killed them. [......Everyone faithfully played dead as best they could until the moment just before I killed them, okay?]
Please, allow me to speak. Know that neither is broken. (This and two truths below were said while referring to the seals on the cousins' room and the next room over doors).
Know that an unbroken seal proves that there are still none who have entered or exited.
It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!
this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.
IMPOSSIBLE. The seals on the windows were also INTACT. Of course, this is at the time of the logic ERROR. (This refers to the cousins' room windows.)
Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.
Know that there can be no obligation to provide an answer to this blue truth...!
The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon.
Battler and Kanon are different people.
The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.
It is true that the next room over was sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the doors were checked to see whether the seals were preserved.
At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!
At the time Battler was rescued, only Kanon entered the guest room.
[Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.'] I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.
[Request: 'This refers to three people.'] I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
[Request: 'I am not the rescuer.'] Of course! You are the detective, are you not? Don't worry, I will respect that!
'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not.
[Request: 'The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'The word guest room includes all of the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.'] I acknowledge it.
[Confirming definition. The inside of the guest room is divided into three sections: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.] I also recognize it as such. Furthermore, you have already confirmed with the red truth that two of those sections, the bedroom and the bathroom, had no one hiding in them.
The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room. Furthermore, the chain lock was set at the same time I entered the room. No one could have left the room during the few seconds between the time I entered and the time I set the chain lock.
The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined, so until I came again and broke the seals, it was absolutely impossible for anyone to go in or out. Therefore, when I entered the room, it is certain that Battler was hiding somewhere inside the guest room.
The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom.
Kanon does not exist in the bedroom.
Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom.
Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.

Thanks for those, saved me a lot of time.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bear in mind that sex and gender are two different things. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, this person could be a transgender who believes in traditional gender roles, willing to be the husband/wife as appropriate.

True, this could be one possibility. But everyone treats them a bit "too" normal if it was that way. I mean, being transgendered is nothing to be ashamed of, but for example Battler trying to touch Shannons breasts if she is a he?
If she really is transgendered, I'd think that Shannon/Kanon was originally a man since Kanons chest is flat while Shannon has a pretty big bustsize, nothing you could just hide whenever you wanted to.

That would actually explain why Kanon is always this depressed and runs himself down (born in wrong body) while Shannon has a brighter view of life and thinks she is a complete human (well, at least until the end where she says she is furniture until she kills Kanon).

Speaking of killing Kanon, this would also fit, since she gave up her former, unwanted self.

But what did Kanon show Jesscia then? They were in her room, so it's not like he could show her womans clothes or something. Also, her parents died not long ago and they were about to get killed, would something like that really have priority in this situation?

Battler never met them at the same time and that's what matters; Erika has the same issue when it matters, does she not?

As for the reds, examine them more closely. Bear in mind that figures having multiple names and passing around names is raised as a possibility, as has multiple personalities.

But in the past games, Shannon and Kanon were listed in red as different people when everyones existed was being controlled, right? Wouldn't that mean they have two different bodies, since corpses count as well?

Then you missed something important. Shannon and Kanon have this complex that no other servants do, and they treat themselves as literally subhuman and are the only humans on the gameboard who are also fantasy characters and demonstrate knowledge of other games the way Beatrice and her demons do.

Shannon and Kanon consider themselves furniture and say furniture doesn't get to have dreams, love, or a future. But it's not like they're SLAVES. Shit, they're supposed to 'graduate' after a few years and pursue successful careers. Not only do they both feel like this isn't an option for them, but Shannon's been there for ten years and that's not normal. That and they're the only servants with the One-Winged Eagle besides Genji, the only other servant to call himself furniture under any context.

Shannon and Kanon are not normal. Add that they're the only people on the island that could see Beatrice before Shannon broke the mirror.

I couldn't think of anything in regards to this paragraph yet.
Maybe Kinzo really had a mistress called Beatrice and they're / she is his children / child and that's why her soul is part of them / her...?
Nah, that doesn't make any sense and wouldn't work out time-wise.
Shannon started working with 6 years or something, didn't she?
Hmmh...




Aaaaah, seeing how all those people had these awesome theories after each episode makes me feel really dumb, lol.
I'm currently looking through the mangas of the first eps, maybe I'll rediscover something that way.

[AuraTwilight]

But in the past games, Shannon and Kanon were listed in red as different people when everyones existed was being controlled, right? Wouldn't that mean they have two different bodies, since corpses count as well?

If we go with the Multiple Personalities idea, as raised with Jessica in EP3, what if death works differently for them? Or if Evatrice entirely took over Eva, would Eva be dead?


We've seen other reds that seem to be more symbolic in their meaning.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

I couldn't think of anything in regards to this paragraph yet.
Maybe Kinzo really had a mistress called Beatrice and they're / she is his children / child and that's why her soul is part of them / her...?

Regarding this, maybe somebody during the first 4 Episodes told a story that's going into that direction?

[GreyZone]

Also notice how Erika asked Beato if the "3 people refer to the number of bodies" and for that part of the fight at least, that was confirmed. However not for other sections or other games.

[Funyarinpa]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If we go with the Multiple Personalities idea, as raised with Jessica in EP3, what if death works differently for them? Or if Evatrice entirely took over Eva, would Eva be dead?


We've seen other reds that seem to be more symbolic in their meaning.

Which idea do you mean? The one where Jessica said that Kanon could be the usual Kanon at work and "Yoshiya" when they were together?

In the case of Eva... Well, I guess the body is alive, but it's not really "Eva" but "EVA Beatrice". It's still an "Eva" though, isn't it?
I mean, I always thought of Evatrice as Evas "dark side", just like Maria calls her mother a black witch when she starts to get angry.

I looked at some reds though, and in one episode (which one was it? Where Battler tried to explain the murders by saying names can be interchangeable) Beato confirmed something like "Kanons name can only be used by himself!" (I don't have the exact wording right now).

..But then again, if Shannon is Kanon, himself is herself as well I guess.
Or at least the not-wanted part of her.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Regarding this, maybe somebody during the first 4 Episodes told a story that's going into that direction?

Hmh...?
I remember a lot of speculation going on about Kinzo having a mistress held in Kuwadorian, but aside from that?
Well, I don't know if I read it on gamefaqs or in the game itself, but wasn't there a rumor about the other -on servants from that orphanage Kinzo sponsored?
Him being related to all of the children in there or something?

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Also notice how Erika asked Beato if the "3 people refer to the number of bodies" and for that part of the fight at least, that was confirmed. However not for other sections or other games.

EDIT: Bad wording.
I meant in this case, I haven't figure out what a "person on Rokkenjima is" if it's really not just a body that has been alive before the 4th of October.



Speaking about Kanon and Shannon, I remember two scenes in general that stuck in my mind for a while now:

- The one where Kanon "comes back to life" in episode two, acts all demon-like and Shannon uses spiderwebs to fend him off. Now, most of this was probably just an illusion, but didn't elder Beatrice also not tolerate spiderwebs just like that demon that was supposed to live on the island since before it was called Rokkenjima? They were talking about how Beatos myth mixed in with that demons', so maybe somethings hidden in there.

- Not sure which episode this was, I think it was 3. The cousins and Shannon were at the beach and they talked about their past. Battler seemed to have promised something to her, like coming back and getting her away or something plus other things she didn't want to talk about. Since Battler has been away for 6 years and Beato seems to be a part of Shannon, could that also be related? They were acting kinda weird in that scene.

EDIT²: Ah, and if Kanon really is just another side of Shannon, the riddle of how he was able to get out of the guestroom is solved as well. I guess if Erika lacked love she really couldn't solve this one.

But couldn't she be in love with Jessica as well if she is Shannon? I mean, if she has feelings for both of them, deciding which gender she finally takes over wouldn't nullify her feelings for her, right?
If the game really pulled something like Shannon/Kanon being transsexual off, would the solution boy-> loves Jessica, girl-> loves George not be a little... how do you say it in english? You probably know what I mean, at least I hope so.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Which idea do you mean? The one where Jessica said that Kanon could be the usual Kanon at work and "Yoshiya" when they were together?

Well, there's that. AuraTwilight is probably directly referring to Battler's theory that Jessica's body killed Nanjo in EP3, even though it was stated in red that 'Jessica' did not kill him. It prompted Beato to respond in red that Jessica's body did not at all participate in Nanjo's murder.

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

In the case of Eva... Well, I guess the body is alive, but it's not really "Eva" but "EVA Beatrice". It's still an "Eva" though, isn't it?
I mean, I always thought of Evatrice as Evas "dark side", just like Maria calls her mother a black witch when she starts to get angry.

Yeah ... also, Knox's 1st : It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

I meant in this case, I haven't figure out what a "person on Rokkenjima is" if it's really not just a body that has been alive before the 4th of October.

I personally think you're putting too much stake on defining a "person on Rokkenjima". Just keep in mind that Kinzo doesn't count, and Knox's 1st is also relevant in this regard.

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

But couldn't she be in love with Jessica as well if she is Shannon? I mean, if she has feelings for both of them, deciding which gender she finally takes over wouldn't nullify her feelings for her, right?
If the game really pulled something like Shannon/Kanon being transsexual off, would the solution boy-> loves Jessica, girl-> loves George not be a little... how do you say it in english? You probably know what I mean, at least I hope so.

I'm afraid ... I don't really know what you mean? Conservative? Heteronormative..? Overly traditional..?

It pays to remember that not only has Shannon been working on Rokkenjima for 10 years (whereas Kanon has only been there for two), but even if Kanon is an assigned-male-at-birth person, he STILL consider his relationship with Jessica as doomed to fail, and himself incapable of love.

Also, if, say, Shannon is Kanon, the dilemma isn't quite "what gender shall I be?", but rather, "which relationship will I pursue?" Sure, Shannon may have feelings for Jessica, BUT - consider that while Rudolf cared about both Kyrie and Asumu, he was being unfair to both of them by trying to continue both relationships.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Hmh...?
I remember a lot of speculation going on about Kinzo having a mistress held in Kuwadorian, but aside from that?

I'm playing towards a very certain person telling a certain story about how she killed Beatrice.

[AuraTwilight]

Which idea do you mean? The one where Jessica said that Kanon could be the usual Kanon at work and "Yoshiya" when they were together?

Remember when Battler brought up the idea of Jessica having a split personality to get around the Nanjo murder?

I looked at some reds though, and in one episode (which one was it? Where Battler tried to explain the murders by saying names can be interchangeable) Beato confirmed something like "Kanons name can only be used by himself!" (I don't have the exact wording right now).

You're thinking of Lambda's red from EP4.

[GreyZone]

In EP6 an even stricter rule was introduced:

(...)All people can only use their own names. However because of the case with Kinzo, it seems that unique "titles" of people can be given to other people.

But regardless of that, let us try a different approach, using substitues from mathematics for People and Names:

function f(x) = Person
variable x = Name

There is a certain rule in math:
A function f(x) can have any amount of corresponding variables x from 0 to infinity, however every variable x in the domain, must belong to exactly one function f(x).

Sorry for bothering with that math comparison...

In other words:
One person can have an unlimited amount of names, but a name always belongs to one specific person. "Titles", like "head of the family", are excluded from that.