2014-10-08, 09:23 | Link #5301 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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I would say a former master needs to have a Command Spell before he is able to create a contract with a new servant. Spoiler for Fate/Zero:
And this: Quote:
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2014-10-08, 10:57 | Link #5305 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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I don't think it is that usual otherwise there would be no reason for current masters to fear former master from making a contract with a new Servant. Getting your Command spell back shoud be a regular occurrence to be something to be feared.
I rather think Kotomine didn't believe he had anything of value to the grail and that is why he didn't expect to get a second change to participate in the grail war. |
2014-10-08, 11:18 | Link #5307 | |
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This makes me wonder how did Kirei's father got all his Command Spells. Where they the Spells from participants of previous grail wars who went to the church to forfeit their participation or did he got them in some other way? |
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2014-10-08, 11:41 | Link #5309 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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2014-10-09, 08:25 | Link #5310 | ||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
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Spoiler for Zero:
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2014-11-03, 03:57 | Link #5311 |
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Join Date: Jul 2014
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I have a quick little question. In the Saber Route it mentions how saber is brought wherever the holy grail may appear because of a deal she made in order to become a heroic spirit. So why doesn't Saber show up during the first 3 holy grail wars?
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2014-11-03, 05:40 | Link #5312 |
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She can only go there if someone summons her there. If another Heroic Spirit is summoned into the Saber class before she is, then she has no real method of materializing. The deal she made wasn't with the Grail, so it doesn't much care about whether she participates in the war or not.
As far as Alaya is concerned, time isn't an issue - it literally has forever to get her the Holy Grail, so if it isn't feasible to get her into the war the first three times, its no big deal. Especially since it doesn't even necessarily have to get her this particular Grail. |
2014-11-03, 09:33 | Link #5313 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
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Well, technically, I'm not sure it is officially confirmed that she wasn't summoned into those wars, although I would agree that it seems unlikely.
But, yeah, there's no reason why Saber automatically has to show up in every Grail War. Most likely, that line is there because at the time Nasu hadn't really thought out his backstory very well, and thus didn't know if she had shown up before the fourth war.
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2014-11-03, 17:02 | Link #5314 |
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Join Date: Jul 2014
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Most likely, that line is there because at the time Nasu hadn't really thought out his backstory very well, and thus didn't know if she had shown up before the fourth war.[/QUOTE]
"If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield."Is this the line you were referring to? Last edited by royalzaku; 2014-11-03 at 17:35. |
2014-11-04, 13:54 | Link #5315 | ||
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2014-11-04, 19:24 | Link #5316 | |
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This is the part where it talks about heroes, heroic spirits, and servants. Basically this is what I got from this scene (correct me if I'm wrong) Heroes make a contract with the world to gain power, or in Saber's case to obtain the Holy Grail, when they are alive. After they die, they become heroic spirits to pay back their debts from the contract, and finally become servants when a magus summons them for the holy grail war. Saber's contract stated that she was to get the Holy Grail when she was alive. However, she was not able to obtain it during her lifetime. In order for her to complete her contract, her time stopped before her death. During this scene Saber says "Eventually, I will obtain the Holy Grail and fulfill the contract. That is why I can be summoned into many ages before I become a heroic spirit on the condition that my becoming a heroic spirit is already determined." This line here indicates that she can be summoned into times before she become a hero to obtain the grail. Since this would occur before both her becoming a hero and the start of the holy grail wars, she would need some method to materialize. So I think the world is summoning her into the world to complete the contract. So it seems reasonable that even if she could not partake as "Saber" in the first three wars, she still could be summoned during those wars to obtain the grail. This theory is incomplete because I need to get a better understanding of the first three holy grail wars because it said how in each of them they were still incomplete and rules had to be changed. I also need to reread the parts about Saber's summoning in the beginning of the game, like when Saber says "Shirou did you not summon me?" and Shirou replays "It was just luck" because these reveal more insight on how Saber was summoned in the first place. |
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2014-11-04, 19:29 | Link #5317 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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Making a deal with the world would result in you becoming a Counter Guardian, like Archer. It has nothing to do with becoming a Heroic Spirit and eventually getting summoned as a Servant.
Her being able to be summoned to times before she becomes a Heroic Spirit is the same for any Heroic Spirit. See: Archer. |
2014-11-04, 19:45 | Link #5318 | |
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2014-11-05, 05:10 | Link #5320 | |
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The summoning of Servants in the War is carried out almost entirely by the Grail. The Masters will create their magic circles, say their magic words (sometimes), and present some sort of relic as a catalyst. If no one goes through that process, then the Holy Grail helps them a long a little bit (see Shirou and Ryuunosuke from Zero). The Holy Grail then takes whatever relic is available, finds a Heroic Spirit that is connected to it, and materializes it into a pre-prepared vessel. Now, while this doesn't seem to apply entirely to Saber, since she can't go into any sort of Spiritual Form (...wait, doesn't that mean she can't touch the grail? o.o), the other facts still apply: the Grail does the summoning. And, for our Saber to be summoned, a catalyst relevant to her must be prepared. Since the Einzbern family didn't have Avalon until shortly before the 4th War, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to find a relic that related directly to her and no one else. So, while it would be possible to summon Saber, it would be very difficult, and so some other (actual) Heroic Spirit would likely be chosen instead. While the World could theoretically forcibly throw Saber into the time period of the War and have her compete for it from the outside, this raises a problem: she wouldn't be a spiritual entity and thus wouldn't be able to touch the Grail. That would mean her only way of actually obtaining the grail would be to become a master, and since the Grail selects the masters, the World can't really help her out. In addition to that, this Holy Grail isn't really the Holy Grail Saber is seeking. The world has no real reason to throw Saber into the war because it wouldn't be able to actually fulfill the contract by doing so. If someone were to attempt to summon Saber, and she were willing to go and fight in the HGW, then the world would have no problem in letting her try, hence her participation in the 4th and 5th wars. But without her specifically being called by Fuyuki's Grail, unless the World is some sort of manipulative mastermind, it has no real reason to believe that its what Saber wants. And finally, from a line you quoted earlier: "If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield." We don't know very much about the first three wars, but we do know that no one obtained the Grail in them. The circumstances are unknown, but if the World determined that there wasn't a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, ie from a flaw in the ritual itself, or some abnormality we don't know about, then it would also have no reason to send her. And again, the Grail couldn't care less about Saber herself, so it would have no reason to call her until someone presented an appropriate Catalyst, which didn't happen until the 4th war. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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