Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

This is fundamentally correct. That being said, the reason Saber wasn't summoned (or at least we assume wasn't summoned) can still be explained by a disconnect between the World and the Holy Grail.

The summoning of Servants in the War is carried out almost entirely by the Grail. The Masters will create their magic circles, say their magic words (sometimes), and present some sort of relic as a catalyst. If no one goes through that process, then the Holy Grail helps them a long a little bit (see Shirou and Ryuunosuke from Zero). The Holy Grail then takes whatever relic is available, finds a Heroic Spirit that is connected to it, and materializes it into a pre-prepared vessel.

Now, while this doesn't seem to apply entirely to Saber, since she can't go into any sort of Spiritual Form (...wait, doesn't that mean she can't touch the grail? o.o), the other facts still apply: the Grail does the summoning. And, for our Saber to be summoned, a catalyst relevant to her must be prepared. Since the Einzbern family didn't have Avalon until shortly before the 4th War, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to find a relic that related directly to her and no one else. So, while it would be possible to summon Saber, it would be very difficult, and so some other (actual) Heroic Spirit would likely be chosen instead.

While the World could theoretically forcibly throw Saber into the time period of the War and have her compete for it from the outside, this raises a problem: she wouldn't be a spiritual entity and thus wouldn't be able to touch the Grail. That would mean her only way of actually obtaining the grail would be to become a master, and since the Grail selects the masters, the World can't really help her out.

In addition to that, this Holy Grail isn't really the Holy Grail Saber is seeking. The world has no real reason to throw Saber into the war because it wouldn't be able to actually fulfill the contract by doing so. If someone were to attempt to summon Saber, and she were willing to go and fight in the HGW, then the world would have no problem in letting her try, hence her participation in the 4th and 5th wars. But without her specifically being called by Fuyuki's Grail, unless the World is some sort of manipulative mastermind, it has no real reason to believe that its what Saber wants.


And finally, from a line you quoted earlier:

"If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield."

We don't know very much about the first three wars, but we do know that no one obtained the Grail in them. The circumstances are unknown, but if the World determined that there wasn't a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, ie from a flaw in the ritual itself, or some abnormality we don't know about, then it would also have no reason to send her. And again, the Grail couldn't care less about Saber herself, so it would have no reason to call her until someone presented an appropriate Catalyst, which didn't happen until the 4th war.

Would it not be possible to summon Arturia based on affinity alone rather than using catalyst? If I remember Caster in Fate/Zero was also summoned based just on his affinity with his master and Rin also thought a catalyst wasn't necessary to summon her servant.

[royalzaku]

For clarification, when servants fight, are they in spiritual form or in physical form? When I watched UBW 2014 ep 0, when Lancer confronted Rin, Archer is invisible (so I assume he is in spiritual form) to the audience but later becomes visible when he fights Lancer. Is the only reason we (the audience) are able to see the two servants fight because the perspective changed from "the audience" to what Rin sees?

Actually, I can already answer this question because Shirou saw these two fight before he became a master. So Shirou is like us, "the audience" in the sense that normal people can see servants.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Now, while this doesn't seem to apply entirely to Saber, since she can't go into any sort of Spiritual Form (...wait, doesn't that mean she can't touch the grail? o.o),

Under this assumption when we see servants they are in their physical form, and towards the end of the 2006 anime and fate zero when the grail is almost complete, Saber could still obtain the grail with a physical body if she wanted to. Maybe the point to consider is that only servants can obtain the grail and whether the fact they are in their physical or spirit form is irrelevant.

Can you explain what you mean by this

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

In addition to that, this Holy Grail isn't really the Holy Grail Saber is seeking. The world has no real reason to throw Saber into the war because it wouldn't be able to actually fulfill the contract by doing so.

I'm not sure about the first HGW but by the second and third ones, when the fighting started, the requirements for the Greater Holy Grail (the wish making device, the one Saber seeks and the one to complete her contract) were already present, so Saber should have been summoned by the World to obtain it. As for the actual method for obtaining the Grail, Saber might have to kill one of the servants participating in the war then form a contract with the Master whose Servant Saber killed. Then Saber would be able to participate in the HGW normally (sort've lol).

[TwilightsCall]

Would it not be possible to summon Arturia based on affinity alone rather than using catalyst? If I remember Caster in Fate/Zero was also summoned based just on his affinity with his master and Rin also thought a catalyst wasn't necessary to summon her servant.

Rin says that when she summons archer, but spoiler for UBW:

Spoiler for Unlimited Blade Works:

She later corrects herself, saying that thinking she could summon a servant without a catalyst was just arrogance on her part. Or something similar.

As we can see from Rin's example, the Grail will seek out a catalyst whether the Master intends it or not. Once the Grail has a list of possible candidates that relate to your catalyst, then it will look for personal affinity to make the final selection. In Zero!Caster's case, this is kind of speculation on my part, but the child Uryu leaves alive could be considered the catalyst. Naturally, the concept of 'children' could probably link to any number of heroes, but on that list, his Caster was the closest to him in personality, resulting in that summoning. There's also the possibility that the crime scene, or excessive amounts of blood and gore, or the dead bodies nearby could have been catalysts...there was a whole lot of stuff at that place that held an indirect link to that particular Heroic Spirit. Admittedly, though, Uryu's personality probably did most of the work.

While there isn't a catalyst listed for each Servant, Rin makes it pretty clear in UBW that she was wrong in thinking she didn't need a Catalyst.

Can you explain what you mean by this

This is actually a bit more mundane then you are probably thinking lol. The first Holy Grail War took place around the year 1800, with the system originally being designed around 1790. King Arthur is purported to have lived in the 5th or 6th Century AD. Logically, the Holy Grail Saber wished for before her death could not have been the Fuyuki Grail, as it wouldn't exist for another 1400 years or so. Thus, the World, assuming it's not a con artist, would have no reason to pay attention to the war in regards to Saber's contract.

When Saber was summoned thanks to the decision of the Einzberns to find her relic, and Saber answered, the World was probably thinking "well okay, if you're satisfied with that, I'm fine with it too." Hence why, as is hinted at the end of Fate route (I believe), when Saber gives up on the Fuyuki Grail (which again, didn't exist for 1400 years following the creation of the contract!), her contract with the World is rescinded and she is allowed to actually die and pass on to Avalon.

One might wonder what the World was doing in order to help her get the Grail. We know that the World stopped time for her so that she wouldn't die, but aside from that...the small amount of evidence we have points to the answer of "not a whole lot."

As for your point on Saber forcing herself into the Grail War, keep in mind the World doesn't have (or at least never demonstrates) the ability to summon servants, but instead Counter Guardians, who are quite different (and probably much stronger). In that regard, it would probably actually be easier for her to murder some random master, take their Command Seals, and then win the war herself. She would just need a Servant to pick up the prize at the end.

Keep in mind the Grail has a will of its own, and has been said to deny the Grail to people (for instance, if they chickened out and cherry picked their victory). Before the whole Angra Mainyu incident, it probably wouldn't have been too happy with the idea of Saber forcing herself into the War from the outside (as a Servant or Master).

[royalzaku]

I see, now I can understand why the World most likely did not summon Saber into the first three wars and why Saber most likely could not participate in them either.

However, I do not understand this:

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Hence why, as is hinted at the end of Fate route (I believe), when Saber gives up on the Fuyuki Grail (which again, didn't exist for 1400 years following the creation of the contract!), her contract with the World is rescinded and she is allowed to actually die and pass on to Avalon.

Why did the World revoke Saber's contract at the end of fate? Even if Saber did not want the Grail at the end, the contract had not been fulfilled.

[GDB]

Because the contract had not yet been fulfilled, she could void it at any time.

[Hana]

Hi guys. I'm not sure where to post it but this seems like the right spot. If someone with general knowledge of the Fate Stay Night universe that is currently watching the ufotable anime airing, will they be spoiled by anything major by playing Fate Extra on the PSP? Thanks

[Rev Okkin]

Not sure, as I have not finished Extra myself but I do know some things.
-There would be nods to events in FSN and FZ(I think)
-Do NOT play Archer if you haven't finished the VN or the ufotable anime.
-Do NOT save Rin as well since there would be FSN Lancer spoiler there.

That's it. It should be fine to play as Saber as Extra's Saber has a different identity to Stay Night's Saber even though they look too much alike. (Blame Takeuchi for loving Saber's design too much)
Extra's Caster, I think has nothing to do with Stay Night.
So you can play Saber or Caster but not Archer.
If this is your first Extra playthrough, use Saber as she is easy. Caster is for a more experienced player or players that like to go full tactical.
Enjoy Fate/Extra!

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by royalzaku

Why did the World revoke Saber's contract at the end of fate? Even if Saber did not want the Grail at the end, the contract had not been fulfilled.

Because she rejected it wholeheartedly.
And because she is a special character for getting the sword out of stone her soul ended up in Avalon for all eternity. Shirou also got to go there after his death because he was perusing to be hero of justice his entire life, to be again united with Saber, and the world rewarded him for that.

But this only works for Fate, in HF she is killed at the beginning and the Grail use her spirit for it's own use ( totally different personality and agenda, many consider Saber to have died her and Alter as 'evil copy of her' ) while in UBW even if she abandons the Grail she does not abandons her quest ( as it was hinted by the hill of swords where she returns every time before she is dragged again into another HGW ).

And all of this is because Fate universe works like Bioshock Infinite universe. Thievery is cannon and everything happened, only difference is that Saber because of her unique status was transferred to world (FZ) after world (HF) after world (UBW or some other version of 5'th HGW) until she finally stopped in 'Fate' route.

[TwilightsCall]

Here's an interesting tidbit I just found from CM3:

Originally Posted by Complete Material III

Q: In the Saber route, Saber terminated her contract with the World by breaking the Grail by her own will, but in the end, wouldn't a hero of the caliber of King Arthur end up being removed from the cycle of transmigration as a Heroic Spirit after death?

A: King Arthur's goin' to Avalon.
Among the English, King Arthur's still a person of the present. After all, she's the "future King who will be back"

So according to that, she'll actually be absolved of her contract with the world regardless...? I guess theoretically she would return some day, then die, then her contract would come into effect...or something...

And immediately following that:

Originally Posted by Complete Material III

Q: Even in Rin’s route, Saber voluntarily destroyed the Holy Grail. Did this time also break her contract with the World, and make it impossible for her to exist as a Heroic Spirit?

A: It was a flawed Grail, so you could say it was halfway done. Since Saber reconsidered her life and found her own path... this time, perhaps she could become a Heroic Spirit on her own.

But Coa brings up another point I was wondering about...

Since it's the actual Saber being summoned every time, not a copy like the other Servants...doesn't that technically mean that the "real" Saber is corrupted by the Shadow in HF? None of the stuff I've seen on the topic of corrupting the Servants seems to acknowledge the fact that Saber is different.

If it goes as I suppose then, Saber would be corrupted, get sent back to her time after Shirou kills her, and then go to Avalon...while still being corrupted. Thus we would have Saber Alter living forever in Avalon....? Or theoretically coming back to rule Britain one day?

The possibilities are intriguing...and somewhat sad lol.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Since it's the actual Saber being summoned every time, not a copy like the other Servants...doesn't that technically mean that the "real" Saber is corrupted by the Shadow in HF? None of the stuff I've seen on the topic of corrupting the Servants seems to acknowledge the fact that Saber is different.

If it goes as I suppose then, Saber would be corrupted, get sent back to her time after Shirou kills her, and then go to Avalon...while still being corrupted. Thus we would have Saber Alter living forever in Avalon....? Or theoretically coming back to rule Britain one day?

The possibilities are intriguing...and somewhat sad lol.

That is not possible because of one thing: the corrupted Saber is killed in HF and Alter is just mere copy of her - it's not actually her.
And after she is killed Saber probably returned to the hill of swords and started all over again - without any memory what happened during HF route.
Alter on the other hand is born our of her wish to obtain the Grail, and the wish was so strong that her 'other' side manifested into real world.

And even if that was the real Saber after she is killed she just starts all over again, she is return to the point where she was not corrupted at all. So there is no way for Alter to enter Avalon at all because the world itself would not allow it.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

So according to that, she'll actually be absolved of her contract with the world regardless...?

No, because if she fulfills her contract she'd remove herself from history as being King. Someone else would assume the mantle, and she'd just be a normal person or normal knight. She'd be forsaking Avalon, and as such become a Counter Guardian.

The second quote is just weird, because it's the exact same situation, yet yielding different results. The only way it'd make any sense at all is if she has to have Avalon returned to her in order to ascend, but that doesn't jive with her legend where it was lost and yet she still ascended to Avalon.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Since it's the actual Saber being summoned every time, not a copy like the other Servants...doesn't that technically mean that the "real" Saber is corrupted by the Shadow in HF? None of the stuff I've seen on the topic of corrupting the Servants seems to acknowledge the fact that Saber is different.

Yeah, nothing ever addresses that. She either remains corrupted, is "cleansed" once removed from the war but remembers the corruption, or some Takeuchi inspired ass-pull. If she's corrupted, that's the only instance I could see of her becoming a Heroic Spirit rather than ascending to Avalon, unless ascending cleanses her completely (ie: Takeuchi ass-pull).

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

That is not possible because of one thing: the corrupted Saber is killed in HF and Alter is just mere copy of her - it's not actually her.
And after she is killed Saber probably returned to the hill of swords and started all over again - without any memory what happened during HF route.
Alter on the other hand is born our of her wish to obtain the Grail, and the wish was so strong that her 'other' side manifested into real world.

Source or BS.

[Brother Coa]

Sources?

You did play HF didn't you?

Saber is killed in the Temple, with Grail and Shadown corrupting what's left of her essence to create Alter to suit their needs and to serve as Sakura's servant. Her personality change as well as her stats and morals, Alter is not Saber expect in appearance. Becasue Arthuria, no matter if it's the grail itself, would never agreed upon turning into Alter just to get the Grail ( As UBW has showed us ). So the shadow and True Assassin had to kill her and then use what's left of her essence to create Saber Alter who would have some of her powers and nothing else of the original - this is called "blackening". You have it all in the game or on Wikia. Here is the page if you are too lazy to read.

And with second quote Nasu basically explained that Saber will keep returning in HGW until she either get it or completely refuse it. That is why in UBW or HF she recieve no Avalon - she simply returns to 5'th HGW but in another reality.
Why she goes to Avalon only in Fate? Because that is the only route where she completely rejects Holy Grail - because Shirou convinced her that she cannot change past as much as she wanted and that she should just accept her results as they were. This happened only in Fate route and why we see Realta Nua only after Fate. Only then des the contract fully ends and she is able to break the cycle of summoning into different HGW-s.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And with second quote Nasu basically explained that Saber will keep returning in HGW until she either get it or completely refuse it. That is why in UBW or HF she recieve no Avalon - she simply returns to 5'th HGW but in another reality.

I just want to correct something. In UBW, she refuses the Grail too. She doesn't receive Avalon in this route but she has a resolution for her problem. So basically she would rest in peace after UBW, one way or another.

I'm pretty positive that UBW anime will explain what Nasu really means.

[TwilightsCall]

Originally Posted by CM 3

The black mud in the Holy Grail contaminates the souls of those who touch it. It goes without saying for mere humans, and supernatural beings like Servants are no exception to this either. The contaminated person's personality reverses toward the orientation of evil. This is madness caused by touching Angra Mainyu. This is called "blackening".

My emphasis.

Sounds like Saber is screwed to me.

Also, Saber very specifically does not die before becoming Saber Alter. The whole point of the altercation (haha) between Saber and True Assassin was that True Assassin was trying to kill Saber so he could buff himself (remember he got stronger every time he killed another Servant). He very specifically attempted to kill Saber before the shadow got to her because then she'd be beyond his reach. True Assassin and the Shadow were definitely not working together, and Saber's thoughts and feelings definitely had no bearing on whether she was corrupted or not.

It's never stated anywhere that I remember that Alter and Saber are different people - in fact I felt like they went through great pains to make it clear that Alter was the same person Saber was...hence why Saber's ending in HF is actually tragic, as opposed to just 'welp she lost again.'

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Sources?

You did play HF didn't you?

Saber is killed in the Temple, with Grail and Shadown corrupting what's left of her essence to create Alter to suit their needs and to serve as Sakura's servant. Her personality change as well as her stats and morals, Alter is not Saber expect in appearance. Becasue Arthuria, no matter if it's the grail itself, would never agreed upon turning into Alter just to get the Grail ( As UBW has showed us ).

Except Fate/Zero showed that she was on the brink of turning into Alter on her own by the time she faced off with Gilgamesh in order to obtain the Grail. As for her "death", she's a Servant. If the Grail wants to use her, it won't kill her and make a copy. It'll merely keep her alive.

So the shadow and True Assassin had to kill her and then use what's left of her essence to create Saber Alter who would have some of her powers and nothing else of the original - this is called "blackening". You have it all in the game or on Wikia. Here is the page if you are too lazy to read.

You realize that page itself says that Servants are corrupted, not killed and replaced with copies, right? It even clearly says "defeated", not "killed".

And with second quote Nasu basically explained that Saber will keep returning in HGW until she either get it or completely refuse it. That is why in UBW or HF she recieve no Avalon - she simply returns to 5'th HGW but in another reality.

That's not how it works. First, she rejects it in UBW just like she does in Fate. I know you're intent on believing that she cannot find salvation outside of the Fate route, but she reaches the same conclusion in both routes. The only difference is whether she's a virgin at the end or not. Second, she's tied to the world, not the Throne of Heroes, so she wouldn't be able to go to alternate realities. This is why she doesn't know about other routes, because she only experiences one per incarnation of Saber, just like Shirou and Rin.

This happened only in Fate route and why we see Realta Nua only after Fate. Only then des the contract fully ends and she is able to break the cycle of summoning into different HGW-s.

We only see Last Episode as a Fate ending because it's 100% fanservice to Saber fans who wouldn't stop complaining to Nasu that she didn't get an ending where she could live happily with Shirou. Don't delude yourself.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

I just want to correct something. In UBW, she refuses the Grail too. She doesn't receive Avalon in this route but she has a resolution for her problem. So basically she would rest in peace after UBW, one way or another.

I'm pretty positive that UBW anime will explain what Nasu really means.

This.

Brother Coa basically implies that Saber was not affected in the slightest by the Shirou vs Archer fight, but instead believed Gil's comment about the grail being dark immidietly and without a doubt

[Levani]

I just finished Fate route and got the true end. I'm using Realta Nua, the separate arcs one. How do I get the other endings for Fate route?

[GDB]

I think Fate only had the one ending, not counting Bad Endings.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Levani

I just finished Fate route and got the true end. I'm using Realta Nua, the separate arcs one. How do I get the other endings for Fate route?

Fate has only one ending. There's an extension of that ending once you complete all the routes.

[Levani]

Oh, then, what are the other boxes here?