Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[AuraTwilight]

We know that she collects them, but we don't know what she does with them. Furthermore, this movie suggests that she keeps them with her at all times, not unlike how Homura used to keep guns inside her shield.

Y'sure? Between a comment by Shinbo (or someone) and the epilogue of Oriko Magica, an alternate universe seems heavily inferred.

Either way, though, the inside of Madoka's godsoul seems like a pretty swag place to spend one's eternity. :P I was mostly just denying someone's idea that Madokami is just Gretchen 2.0.

It's probably a retcon, since that part of the movie was $hinbo's idea anyway. At that point I doubt Urobuchi cared if it was perfectly consistent with tv the series. After all, he won't write for this franchise anymore...

Yea, that's pretty much the main reason why I'm rejecting this movie as headcanon. The TV Ending clearly mattered a lot to Urobuchi on a personal level and there's not really any reconciling of the two on a thematic or symbolic level. One entirely trivializes the other into irrelevancy as a moral message; they can't both carry the same weight.

...I'm still not letting the omniscience thing go by the way. If Madoka's comment about being able to observe all of space/time isn't true, that's more than a strike against her character; it's a strike against the narrative as a literary work, because nothing calls into question the possibility of Madoka's inerrancy in that scene except the very asspull-y conclusion of the movie.

Seriously, the internal consistency of the Puella Magi multiverse completely falls to hell in the last half-hour of the movie. There's seriously no excusing it.

[1337_haxor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Y'sure? Between a comment by Shinbo (or someone) and the epilogue of Oriko Magica, an alternate universe seems heavily inferred.

Either way, though, the inside of Madoka's godsoul seems like a pretty swag place to spend one's eternity. :P I was mostly just denying someone's idea that Madokami is just Gretchen 2.0.



Yea, that's pretty much the main reason why I'm rejecting this movie as headcanon. The TV Ending clearly mattered a lot to Urobuchi on a personal level and there's not really any reconciling of the two on a thematic or symbolic level. One entirely trivializes the other into irrelevancy as a moral message; they can't both carry the same weight.

...I'm still not letting the omniscience thing go by the way. If Madoka's comment about being able to observe all of space/time isn't true, that's more than a strike against her character; it's a strike against the narrative as a literary work, because nothing calls into question the possibility of Madoka's inerrancy in that scene except the very asspull-y conclusion of the movie.

Seriously, the internal consistency of the Puella Magi multiverse completely falls to hell in the last half-hour of the movie. There's seriously no excusing it.

I take that Madoka could be omniscient but again, Madoka was never the brightest girl in the series.

If the Incubators hatched a plot to overthrow her, she probably didn't pay much attention to it on accounts of not understanding a damn thing they think on starfish language.

[woxx]

Apparently Shinbo said that all 3 movies and the TV series are independent from each other. So everyone who is too mad can just pretend they're some alternate ending stuff.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Will someone please tell these people why Madoka already had an ending?

Like, if you enjoy Rebellion on a thematic level or you're just okay with how it obviously retcons things to be extra grimdark, that's fine. That's your prerogative and more power to you, man. But you've got to be fucking kidding yourself if you honestly think the TV show ended on a desperate cliffhanger and actually NEEDED this shit.

The ending is not grimdark, lol. I have no idea why people just buy into stuff like "Homura and Madoka can never reconcile" or some other such finalizing shit. The point of the movie is to set up a new storyline for potential future seasons of material. It's not meant to contradict the original material. However the continuation might end up being (and Shaft must certainly want to be making one, their current readiness notwithstanding), there is no present reason to expect it to be any 'darker' than the original series.

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

...Rather than retconning the TV ending? Homura REWROTE THE ENTIRE FREAKING UNIVERSE AND REMOVED ANY POWER MADOKA MAY HAVE HAD, ALSO NEGATING ANY ACTIONS SHE MAY HAVE HAD AND (presumably) TOOK AWAY ANY REASONS SHE MAY HAVE DONE THOSE ACTIONS TO BEGIN WITH. It doesn't get much more "retconning the TV ending" than that. As for Kyubey, no, I do not feel that that was a dangling thread the TV-series left behind, because even though Kyubey was basically the Big Bad of the show, the focus was never "We must defeat Kyubey!" And I never seem to recall anyone particularly saying anything that the resolution to the show left anything unresolved in terms to his character either... Well aside from the people who wanted it to involve him suffering somehow, in which case this movie would probably be a thing of beauty to them because if there was one thing I got out of that final scene, it was that Kyubey was indeed suffering. Oh sure, now we see people all over the place saying that telling Kyubey about the witch-system that Madoka erased was a terrible idea... but I never saw anyone bring this point up before this movie came out, and I don't exactly see "Homura is droven into the depths of despair and turns into Satan" to be a particularly logical outcome of her telling him about it either.

I'm wondering if you bothered reading daimonth's post. It seems to me that there's plenty of justifiable characterization behind Homura's transformation. Furthermore, you are using a bizarre definition of the word 'retcon'. A 'retcon' is an event which contradicts/revises earlier events in the story. It does not apply to logical continuations of them. Whatever your hysteria about Homura 'undoing' developments of the TV series, it doesn't change the fact that they still actually happened, and Homura is just suppressing them.

Furthermore, Homura's new rules or universe are not set in stone. Just as Homura managed to seize an opportunity (and evidently, on account of Kyuubey, necessity) to overturn Madoka's universe, there is every reason to assume that it would be possible to overturn Homura's. In fact, the principle point is that the possibility is introduced to pursue an even better resolution than the end of the TV series. Contrary to the initial kneejerk reactions, I think that after the arrival of opportunities to fully comprehend the movie it will only be people who did not fully enjoy the television series' developments, thematically and character-wise, who will want to hastily shut the series away as 'finished' instead of seeing the careful work done to expand and continue it.

In the end, the original TV series might have been a complete work as Urobochi Gen originally envisioned it. However, Gen is not infallible, and is perfectly capable of being inspired by collaboration. Rebellion marks the end of Gen's unifying vision for the Madoka storyline, but he did not leave it there without his endorsement. I have every confidence that Gen wrote Rebellion's story with a sense of integrity towards his own work. If that is true, then what he has essentially done is opened up the Madoka world to now be shaped by new, alternative writers -- writers with perhaps a different perspective from Gen. However, so long as those future collaborations are created with integrity and respect towards the original work, I see no reason not to welcome the possibilities they will bring.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Lookie at what I found. :3

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...after-3rd-film

As expected really. But as long as what is made is good then that's all that matters, if it begins to become mediocre though...

[AuraTwilight]

I take that Madoka could be omniscient but again, Madoka was never the brightest girl in the series.

If the Incubators hatched a plot to overthrow her, she probably didn't pay much attention to it on accounts of not understanding a damn thing they think on starfish language.

I don't really find "Madoka's stupid" an acceptable answer to the thematic dissonance, here.

Apparently Shinbo said that all 3 movies and the TV series are independent from each other. So everyone who is too mad can just pretend they're some alternate ending stuff.

Too bad the first two movies and the anime are basically exactly the same. The problems don't go away.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Solace

I wish people would knock off the overreactions. It's just a damn movie.

Why yes. It is just a movie. A movie which is a sequel to a story that I've spent the past two and a half year wholeheartedly adoring every last aspect of, which takes a story I thought had a perfect ending as it is, and takes it in a direction I completely disagree with to the point where I feel that it diminishes said previous perfect ending.

But yes, maybe I am overreacting. Indeed I am taking one single aspect of an otherwise decent film and letting my feelings on this one aspect completely overshadow everything else, and yes, maybe I am trying way too hard to justify my dissatisfaction with it. Heck, for all I know, in a few weeks' time maybe I'll have completely reconsidered everything here and will be praising this movie just as much as I tend to do the show... But I doubt it.

[Haruhara]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Why yes. It is just a movie. A movie which is a sequel to a story that I've spent the past two and a half year wholeheartedly adoring every last aspect of, which takes a story I thought had a perfect ending as it is, and takes it in a direction I completely disagree with to the point where I feel that it diminishes said previous perfect ending.

But yes, maybe I am overreacting. Indeed I am taking one single aspect of an otherwise decent film and letting my feelings on this one aspect completely overshadow everything else, and yes, maybe I am trying way too hard to justify my dissatisfaction with it. Heck, for all I know, in a few weeks' time maybe I'll have completely reconsidered everything here and will be praising this movie just as much as I tend to do the show... But I doubt it.

Are you gonna go see the movie again? I think I will. Definitely getting the bluray

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Haruhara

Are you gonna go see the movie again? I think I will. Definitely getting the bluray

Uh, I would think it would be pretty obvious from everything I've said in this thread that I am not particularly keen on watching the film a second time, no...
Again though, that's just how I feel right now. Maybe sometime down the road I'll come to have a slightly more neutral view on it to the point where I might be able to give it a second chance, but at the moment? Nope, not happening.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Uh, I would think it would be pretty obvious from everything I've said in this thread that I am not particularly keen on watching the film a second time, no...
Again though, that's just how I feel right now. Maybe sometime down the road I'll come to have a slightly more neutral view on it to the point where I might be able to give it a second chance, but at the moment? Nope, not happening.

Hehe, Admittedly I was in shock from reading it (hell knows how I'll feel when watching) But when I was shocked I just felt a split right down the middle of my views on the series, didn't know what to think about it to be honest. But I slept on it and after reading more of the spoilers I came to the conclusion that I think I like where it's going. Seeing as you've seen it all in person rather than reading about it maybe the shock will last much longer. But I'm not saying to change your mind or anything just so you can join those who like it, but rather maybe in a couple of weeks you'll see it in a different light. :3

Oh and thanks for your reply, your reasons are interesting and fair.

[1337_haxor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't really find "Madoka's stupid" an acceptable answer to the thematic dissonance, here.



Too bad the first two movies and the anime are basically exactly the same. The problems don't go away.

Granted, I was joking about Madoka's intelligence even tough you got to admit she can be really dumb sometimes.

However, as a matter of fact, Madoka is not an agressive person, even if the Incubators were plotting against her then it's unlikely that she would take any action againts them.

I mean, massacring an alien species fits perfectly with Homura but not Madoka.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She's everywhere and "Sees all universes that ever were, and ever will be", and exists in every moment of time.

Your conclusion here is basically because....

1) Clearly, you like the idea.

2) A little bit of Madoka dialogue from Episode 12. Which could simply be a case of a character exaggerating or using hyperbole or heck, even just speaking in broad generalities for the sake of convenience.

What's easier to believe - That Madoka engaged in some exaggeration/hyperbole in Episode 12, or that a genuinely omniscient being somehow managed to be taken by surprise and stripped of power that this being desired to maintain? The former is, at worst, improbable. The latter is impossible.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

So it's up to you - You can say that she was omniscient, but that she wanted Homura to do this. Or you must admit that she's not omniscient.


Well, you could totally disregard the movie, but Gen did write it, and some reports are that he likes the idea of Homura and Madoka as oppositional forces.

To be fair to me, Madokami literally said she was. :P If she turns out not to be, it's a blatant retcon. You can't even really use "Madoka overestimated herself"...

You don't need to use even that. All you need to use is exaggeration/hyperbole.

But you could use "Madoka overestimated herself", I suppose.

A human mind would likely be left in complete awe and wonder of the added knowledge necessary to know about multiple timelines, and every magical girl that ever lived. That alone is a lot of knowledge. In the heat of the moment, it's possible for Madoka to overestimate what this all means. Or, again, knowingly exaggerate it.

Spoiler for Marvel Comics comparison, spoiling 1992's The Infinity War:

She could be comparable to The Magus from Marvel Comics' The Infinity War. In that, he briefly gained the Infinity Gauntlet, something that confers omnipotence and omniscience unto its wearer. However, he gained it with one of its six gems being a facsimile, so he wasn't exactly omnipotent. But his mind was so wowed by the added power/knowledge coming from the other five real gems that he didn't notice that the sixth was a facsimile until it was too late. There was a blind spot in his knowledge, and a limitation to his power, that he didn't notice due to being flushed and drunk with power.

The Magus was a super-intelligent genius villain. If he can fall prey of this, Kaname Madoka definitely can.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

...I'm still not letting the omniscience thing go by the way. If Madoka's comment about being able to observe all of space/time isn't true, that's more than a strike against her character; it's a strike against the narrative as a literary work, because nothing calls into question the possibility of Madoka's inerrancy in that scene except the very asspull-y conclusion of the movie.

People exaggerate all the time. Madoka obviously doesn't like outright lies, but she's not above mere exaggeration.

[Wanderer]

On the subject of omniscience:

I find an omniscient person to be a nonsensical idea in and of itself.

Godika is more of a thing than a person. She's a manifestation of Madoka's self and will, but she doesn't think. She merely acts in accordance with her nature.

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

Hehe, Admittedly I was in shock from reading it (hell knows how I'll feel when watching)

The movie is another thing entirely. What Homura did isn't so hard to come to terms with on paper compared to how Homura reacted to it emotionally. The evil imagery, the voice, that smirk- that's what really shocked me.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The evil imagery, the voice, that smirk- that's what really shocked me.

Well, she probably feels like she has play the part. After all she's going against Madoka's will. If Madoka is seen as God, then Homura, who opposes her wish, must be the Devil. The truth is, she isn't the Devil or even evil, but she makes herself play the part to rationalize her guilt for making Madoka her enemy.

[night_sentinel]

To add to Triple's position. I really think that Madoka doesn't have omniscience in every sense of the word.

Her wish is to be able to destroy witches in all timelines. From that wish we can infer that the best omniscience she can get is personal knowledge of the life of each magical girl. This of course includes all timelines and dimensions as long as a magical girl is there. But, take note, that it only includes magical girls. I assume that there are a great many other beings than them. Like the Incubators. They are potentially outside her functional omniscience which is why they could do this.

On the other hand, after some thinking Position 2 that Madokami wants this outcome is also possible if we assume that she is Omniscient but not omnipotent. A good bet since we already know one thing she can't do which is maintain her existence. ^^

If she can be captured by the incubator, perhaps not today but sometime in the future. Perhaps she willingly allowed herself to be drawn to the experiment and be trapped in Homura's dimension to be able to stop it. She willingly allowed herself to be ganked, trusting that Homura will do what she believes is best.

Meaning she wants Akuma! Homura to be born. Even if it caused her powers to be suppressed in the end, it would be better than the alternative.

Meaning she bet in Homura in the end. ^^

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Godika is more of a thing than a person. She's a manifestation of Madoka's self and will, but she doesn't think. She merely acts in accordance with her nature.

Then how is she even able to hold conversations with people? In order to hold a conversation (as we've seen Madokami do, most notably with Homura in Episode 12) you obviously have to be capable of thought.


I think the cleanest, simplest idea is what night_sentinel wrote here.

"From that wish, even if we give her the best omniscience possible through it, something like all the knowledge regarding magical girls in existence, there is still a large blindspot."

That makes the most sense to me. Why would Madoka's wish make her omniscient? She doesn't need to be in order to fulfill her own wish. All she needs to have is complete knowledge about every magical girl that ever lived. That is a lot of knowledge, but it's not everything. It has no bearing on loads of things. It'll obviously have no bearing on anything "male-only".

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, she probably feels like she has play the part. After all she's going against Madoka's will. If Madoka is seen as God, then Homura, who opposes her wish, must be the Devil. The truth is, she isn't the Devil or even evil, but she makes herself play the part to rationalize her guilt for making Madoka her enemy.

It's at least a little bit evil to forcefully go against the literal wishes of your best friend, purely due to your own desires. But yes, Homura feels guilty, and so acts the villain.

[night_sentinel]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's at least a little bit evil to forcefully go against the literal wishes of your best friend, purely due to your own desires. But yes, Homura feels guilty, and so acts the villain.

Its Homura. She takes Dark is not evil in art form. At this rate, I will not be surprised if she does something like zero requiem which is proposed in this thread.

Heck, even in the TV series, there are many times where she is framed as the "villain."

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then how is she even able to hold conversations with people? In order to hold a conversation (as we've seen Madokami do, most notably with Homura in Episode 12) you obviously have to be capable of thought.

I saw that as being because the transformation wasn't yet complete.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's at least a little bit evil to forcefully go against the literal wishes of your best friend, purely due to your own desires. But yes, Homura feels guilty, and so acts the villain.

It's not that simple, because when Madoka was inside QB's barrier, and she couldn't remember that she was Madokami, she and Homura had this conversation (translation by daimonth) :

Spoiler for dialog:

63:11

Homura: I had a very scary dream.

Madoka: A scary dream?

Homura: In that dream Madoka went to a place far away, a place that I could never reach. I was the only one who remembered Madoka, I was lonely and in pain. However no else understood my feeling. In the end I doubted whether or not the Madoka I remembered ever existed in the first place or just that something I imagined.

Madoka: That is a very painful dream, however don't worry, i would never go away.

Homura: How can you be so certain?

Madoka: Because that is something that even Homura-chan started to cry about, I would never be able to endure it?

Homura: That is also something that is unbearable to you?

Madoka: That is right, Homura-chan Sayaka-chan, Mami-san, Kyouko-chan, papa, mama, Tatsuya and Hitomi-chan and the rest of the class, I don't want to part with any of you. Even if that is something I must do, I would not have the courage to go through when the time comes.

Homura: Ah... is that so.... is this your true feeling then? Then I was a fool to have misunderstood it. I should not have approved. I should have used every possible mean to stop you back then. Madoka... I know.. that you are kind to everyone and not afraid of making choices. When you feel that there is something that only you can do, you would not hesitate even if it means hurting yourself.

Madoka: Homura-chan?

So, yeah, Homura is going against Madoka's literal wishes, but not necessarily against her true feelings. What Homura's doing is wrong, of course, but I don't think it's evil.

[night_sentinel]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So, yeah, Homura is going against Madoka's literal wishes, but not necessarily against her true feelings. What Homura's doing is still wrong, but I don't think it's evil.

Yeah. Seeing the transcripts without the heavy music and imaginary. I would be a bit hard pressed to see what Homura is doing as selfish.

In fact, if there is a season 2 and there is a clash between Madoka and Homura. I believe its because of the incapability of both of them to be SELFISH. They really should learn its good once in a while. ^^