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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-01-06, 18:39 | Link #521 | |||||||||
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2012-01-06, 18:52 | Link #522 | |||
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By the way, trying to use the generational argument loses quite a bit of ground given how high Hashirama and Madara are. If that system were consistent, they'd have been majorly outclassed by now. |
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2012-01-06, 19:11 | Link #524 | |||
The Isley
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Another example would be if the Pain v Naruto fight had occurred in Part I. Obviously, he wouldn't have wiped out Konoha and killed everyone because the manga would be over - Kishi would have written him to be either 1) MUCH weaker 2) MUCH more limited in what he could do or 3) both. The plot and what occurs in it can only stretch logic so far before we have to chaulk it up to the fact that this is a story written by a human being who's bound to not have planned every single detail of his story 10+ years into the future or changed his mind in that decade of time between the points in the story. Quote:
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Last edited by White Silver King; 2012-01-06 at 19:24. |
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2012-01-06, 20:06 | Link #525 | |||||
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2012-01-06, 20:43 | Link #526 | |
The Isley
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2012-01-06, 21:26 | Link #527 | ||
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reference manga ch. 513 pg 2. kabuto explains what is different about his talisman to deidara. he is just giving the ET ninjas orders. he is not fully controlling them like orochimaru did. orochi didnt know all of hashirama's powers so thats why hashirama didnt use them in that fight. if kabuto were controlling him, then we would have seen hashirama's full potential since only hashirama could know everything he could do. kabuto isnt stripping the ET zombies of their free will like orochi did, which was the problem with orochi's inferior ET. a fully functional 1st and 2nd hokage would have beaten sarutobi. to think otherwise is going against what kishi is trying to tell us with this new method of ET that kabuto is using. it doesnt make sense and it doesnt give the 1st and 2nd much credit either. kabuto just says 'kill' and the ninja use all their secret techs to do it without kabuto manipulating the whole battle or knowing what they are capable of Last edited by Hunter; 2012-01-07 at 01:43. |
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2012-01-07, 07:54 | Link #528 | |
Upon a wishing Star
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Personally i infer alot about what Kabuto said when he said he had perfected the Edo-Tensei jutsu. And when you say that Sarutobi is the strongest just because he defeated Hashirama and Tobirama , i personally disagree. I mean what the F. Hashirama is the sole mokuton user but i've seen Yamato do more Mokuton than him. I really think its because Orochimaru hadn't perfected the edo Tensei jutsu so their skills were limited and their powers reduced DRASTICALLY. I'm telling you , if Hashirama was at that level , than Madara would have whopped his ass back when he was still alive. I find it even funnier how Sarutobi couldn't fend against the 9-Tails and had to wait for Minato when he was 17years younger compared to the time where he had to fight the 1st and 2nd after the timeskip. Base on facts as you say , Hashirama and Minato were able to fend against the Bijuu , so does that make them stronger than Sarutobi? Really , i acknowledge that Sarutobi is quite the strong shinobi but i think your making a big fuss just because he defeated the 1st and 2nd who were in Zombie mode and whom i believe were not as powerful as they should be. -edit- just something extra to point out . About the fight between the 1st & 2nd VS the 3rd. The level they were fighting at that time could actually be counted as impressive to be fair. Since fights in Naruto timezone compared to Shippuden timezone is just sad. The fights , no matter who it featured in Shippuden all outclassed the ones showed in Naruto to be honest imo. After Shippuuden started every character seemed to be in godmode compared to Naruto. Like seriously. Just my 2 cents. You have people instantly destroying villages , summoning Giant Meteorites and Bijuu-bombs creating craters in Shippuden. In Naruto the greatest you could go was a Rasengan-Chidori explosion effect...
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2012-01-07, 12:34 | Link #529 |
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i want to get on the sarutobi side of the fence but i just cant. yes he it has been stated that he is the greastest of the hokage, but where is the proof. there are so many ifs in the saru/oro fight that you really cant count that fight as a correct scale of his power. the age factor is just to much. and when you look at the 1st hokage i mean come on. the man could tame and use the tailed beasts with woodstyle justus(a unique justsu in itself) and has a win against a ems madara under his belt. based on this you have to admit, we have not been shown anything by the 3rd to equal or surpass this. that being said we also havent seen any of the 3rd battles in his prime. its just frustating and hard to make a final call on who is strongest.
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2012-01-11, 03:11 | Link #530 |
start thinkin bout clones
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i believe kimish himself said the 4th is the top of the ninja class no matter what and says he judges everyone else off that scale. But this was ages ago when he said it so he might have changed his stance.
Id say its probably 4th and then 3rd when it comes to who is more powerful in their prime.
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2012-01-11, 20:09 | Link #531 |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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Sarutobi. Yondaime second, Itachi third, Jiraiya fourth. The rest aren't even worth mentioning.
Sarutobi was clearly stronger than both Shodaime and Nidaime, COMBINED. Even after defeating both of them, Sarutobi still had enough strength to go on and make Orochimaru look like a fool. And he wasn't even in his prime; he was an old man, who should have been retired if only Yondaime hadn't died. Which brings up my next point: the village had Sarutobi serve as Hokage once again after Yondaime's death instead of choosing a new Hokage, despite Sarutobi's advanced age. Yondaime, Itachi, and Jiraiya could also possibly be first as well, but the fact is we don't know enough about Yondaime other than during the last Great Ninja War the other villages had a "retreat on sight" order if they encountered him. Itachi had his disease, which kinda counts against him because he more-or-less died from it in the middle of battle. And while Jiraiya was arguably martially stronger than Sarutobi, he didn't have the same leadership skills that Sarutobi showed us. After all, a sense for diplomacy is a very rare trait in a shinobi.
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2012-01-12, 03:08 | Link #532 | |||
Upon a wishing Star
Join Date: Dec 2011
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The village only reappointed Sarutobi because at that point of time there weren't any suitable candidates. The Kyuubi attack alone killed many Shinobi. Most of the veterans were sent to battle while the younger ones were ordered to step back [people like Kakashi , Gai & Kurenai] Not because he was stronger. I believe Sarutobi said so himself once somewhere .. I dun even wanna start on how Sarutobi couldn't take on the Nine-Tails himself and all he could do was hold on to wait for Minato. He was .. what? 17 years younger than years later when he fought both the 1st & 2nd in Orochimaru's plot to destroy the Leaf? Hashirama owned the Tailed Beasts. Yet going by your theory Sarutobi clearly outclassed the 1st & 2nd even at that old age. The only thing i'd say makes Sarutobi a kage-level Shinobi is his mastery of all the jutsu's and his unbelievable Stamina , as u pointed out how he was capable of high-level fighting even at his old age. Other than that , i don't think he deserves to be called the strongest. Also about your leadership part. Everyone in the Leaf respected Jiraiya. The only reason Jiraiya didn't become Hokage was because he simply didn't want to. I'd acknowledge people would follow Sarutobi as he does have basic leadership qualities for people to want to follow him , but what kind of leader lets his underlings do whatever they want? Danzo and the Elders are literally like teenage kids messing around with the village and all he ever does is try to negotiate. A true leader would have real control. Look at how Tsunade just bitches at the 2 Elders. Even Jiraiya knew to keep a weary eye against Danzo. Did Sarutobi do so? No. He literally trusted Danzo. Thats exactly how Danzo got to do the things he did , like teaming up with Hanzo the Salamander and many other evil deeds. I make this a point as a reference to how Sarutobi handled the Uchiha massacre.
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2012-01-12, 10:50 | Link #533 |
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Whether Sarutobi is stronger than the 1st and 2nd or not, I don't think this is the way to go about debating that. Mokuton is specifically designed to controlling the Tailed Beasts, same way the Sharingan is; saying somebody with one of those things is stronger than somebody who doesn't because they can take care of Tailed Beasts makes no sense. It's not really fair to Hiruzen to make a comparison like that.
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2012-01-12, 12:22 | Link #534 | |
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its not like yamato can control the bijou with his mokuton abilities. he can suppress them to an extent, but its far short of what hashirama, tobi, and madara are doing/have done. it was also eluded that danzo took hashirama's cells to be able to control them himself, but we saw just how difficult it is to wield that kind of power. most likely he couldn't do it yet or ever, so he was holding off. |
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2012-01-12, 12:40 | Link #535 | |
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To use a similar example, Naruto was able to handle Preta Path easily thanks to Sage Mode. Does that automatically make him stronger than anybody who can't also handle Pain's Preta Path (such as Kakashi, who would be screwed against an opponent that can block all of his Ninjutsu)? |
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2012-01-12, 12:57 | Link #536 | |
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being able to control the bijou using those tools is a different story imo. i think that elevates anyone who can do that above most if not all of everyone else. I should add the word forcibly though. since befriending bijou isn't a mark of power. it is to an extent since jinchuuriki who befriend them have to prove themselves worthy, but it's not as much power needed as making the bijou do what you want by force. so I would say that "forcibly controlling bijou" is one of the clear indicators in the series that that particular ninja is one of the strongest we have seen so far and stronger than those who can't do it. this whole outer path chakra chain tech is confusing though, because I can't figure out why nagato didnt do it when trying to capture naruto. either he wasn't strong enough or didn't know how I guess, but it was tobi who ordered him to get the ninetails which leads me to believe that nagato knew how to do it but couldn't. most likely its a tech added by kishi after the fact though. but still, taking the series, on a whole, into account would lead me to believe that he wasnt powerful enough. nagato himself was a bit disillusioned with his own power since his moon was nowhere near as great as the one the rikudo sennin created. i think it fits the story to have tobi/madara just being stronger than nagato with the rinnegan techs for those reasons and just the overall reason of the author constantly introducing stronger villains than we have previously seen. |
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2012-01-12, 13:11 | Link #537 | |
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2012-01-12, 14:01 | Link #538 | |
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Hashirama can defeat Tailed Beasts (thanks to Mokuton, which is specifically designed to do exactly that). Hiruzen cannot defeat the Kyuubi. Therefore, Hashirama has to be stronger. And I said that makes no sense. Mokuton and Sharingan are pretty much cheats when it comes to handling Tailed Beasts, so saying that somebody with one of them is automatically stronger than somebody who can't handle a Tailed Beast but doesn't have either of those is stupid. Hashirama could be stronger. I've done some double-checking on ET, and I'm somewhat convinced now on the argument that Orochimaru's ET may have been incomplete. All I'm saying is that Hashirama isn't automatically stronger on the point of being able to handle a Tailed Beast alone, because I'm reasonably certain that if Hiruzen had Mokuton or the Sharingan he'd make a fool out of the Tailed Beasts too. That's just what those two things do. |
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2012-01-12, 17:49 | Link #539 | ||
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2012-01-12, 18:20 | Link #540 | |
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If we're talking about comparing Hashirama's strength and Hiruzen's strength, of course Mokuton counts. But saying that their respective performances against Tailed Beasts is some kind of indication, when one of them has an ability that provides an easy win, is not the way to prove who is better. |
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